OB07 - The First Shall Be Last

I agree with the golden age thing, and sorry for confusing the GPs, I just think Sage sounds more like a religious figure, but otoh you cant really call em scientists in a fantasy mod, so whatever :p

I think we should wage war on Rhoannas lands until we know of Einons strength and placement...
 
Information about Einon:
* has double our power rating
* has Valin Phanuel, who is scouting our northern cities
* definitely has Longbows, Devouts, and Bronze
* has AH, Construction, and IW, but (oddly for his size) no Iron
* probably has some Adepts, since he has 3 Nature mana
* has the Defender trait and the turtling world spell
* doesn't have Priesthood or Sorcery

Editorial:
* I think it's late enough that we should build only units and military buildings.
* Evermore is our only Mage Guild city, so I suggest it build only Adepts.
* Hyll should fire a 1F coast and hire an Artist.
* When we make the last switch, I think our final points should be coming from Einon (closes gap, sours relations). I think now is a good time to make peace with Rhoanna. We don't have many units in the south, and the one city we took is as a defensible a southern border as we're going to get at this point. If we made peace now we could move units north, and Smelting (5) -> Elementalism (8) would be reasonable timing to prepare two stacks, with Fireballs, one for Valin and one for the first Elohim city.
 
I can't get to it until tomorrow. If someone wants to grab it first, post a got it and be my guest :) .
 
Nope, the timing isn' really working out for me, so it's yours still, Imhotep.

Jets analysis makes me think we won't like to wage war against Einon. He seems too strong...
 
Not much to report actually. Quiet ten turns. The good news: We're gaining on Einon, at the end of my set the gap was 274 points.

Founded a new city...

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Kicked off the GA...

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Made peace at a good price...

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Made a good deal...

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Researched some techs...

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Unfortunately we got no Iron. Troops are assembling in the West. Good luck.

Imhotep
 
Did Diamondeye play any of the turnsets he was supposed to play yet? ;)
 
Good job on closing the gap, Imhotep! :goodjob: Bummer about the iron. I'm curious, though, why Priesthood? This is probably my FFH newbness talking, but I'm rather partial to those fireballs. I rather liked Jet's suggestion of Elementalism ... Any chance of posting your thoughts for us newbs?
 
@Conroe:

The religious Priests are quite powerful. They come with a base strenghth 5 and Medic II promotion, and they gain XP automatically. The Priest of Leaves have a useless uniqie spell, Ashen Veil Vicars would have been better. But still - they are a good addition to our stack. And if they reach level 6 they can be upgraded to High Priests - even more powerful... Fireballs require Mages (Fire II), and we don't have enough yet to do great damage.

Imhotep
 
I notice that Cardith has a tech to trade as I open the save so pull the trigger and get Animal Handling for Currency (I get a map and some coins as well). 251 points in defecit.

I throw research to Elementalism.

The map shows something quite interesting, Einion is our neighbour (I was assuming he was the other side of Cardith). If we strike quickly and take a couple of cities, we should overtake him.

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The Doviello and Balseraphs are out there as well. I assume we'll end up as the Doviello.

Here are the defenses of the first city in the way. We can already take this easily.

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If Valin wasn't still hanging around our south, I'd declare now but I want him to disappear first.

We pop a GS. Academy might be best. I leave him for now.

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2nd city is better defended but not too bad for us.

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Elementalism comes in and is replaced by Way of the Wicked and then Wise (2 turns cheap points).

Great Lighthouse is still out there so try our hand at it.

A fire node is built but we can't get any mages with fire balls for a few turns (we have maelstorm which might be better anyway).

We score Necromancy from Sandalphon in a trade. :goodjob:

10 turns in I put research into Mathematics but no beakers.

I also move out the army which sends our finances into a spin.

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I didnn't decalre but the troops have movement left so we may as well if everyone is happy. Valin has headed into Hippus lands and hasn't been seen for a few turns. We should send the next Priest to the Hippus border city, which is decently defended.

The gap is 217 points but that will change soon :D
 
Valin is in our mid-northern city Berk. I think a garrison like the one on the Hippo border wouldn't be nearly enough for him. He's 9/10 with combat V and 3 movement. I'll have to use Gilden, who is 8/7 with Combat V, Drill II, and Formation II (+80%), and the one unit that we have that can cast Maelstrom. (Can anyone explain why our arcane units got promotions from more than one sphere?) All our other units are low strength and while I intend to use them, I think we'll just lose them while making little or no dent. Probably best to start with some fodder, hit with the hero, and save more fodder to clean up if the hero doesn't suffice. The only other option I see is to wait for more mages.

I was going to assume that Valin would pop into the closest neutral tile, but (especially with his 3 movement points) we could get bit if I make the wrong assumption. Anyone know how it works?

Either way (without waiting for a lot more mages), we'll have to start the westward invasion with regular grunt units. Just before the second Elohim city there is a two tile chokepoint consisting of one forest hill and one jungle hill. I'm inclined to try defending there, and maybe raze the city to make the chokepoint easier to defend, to absorb whatever counter units Einon has ready.

We're one quarter into Mathematics, but I don't see what we would do with it. The score bonus itself is tiny compared to what we would get from more land and population, is it not? How about switching to Feral Bond? We could build Kithra and then go for Animal Mastery or Commune With Nature. Or: Bowyers, to help hold whatever Elohim cities we take.

I say again that I don't agree with all the economic buildings we have in progress. They have a long term benefit. In my estimation we're close enough to switching that that's counterproductive.

For the Settler one turn from completion, I think I should settle it in the desert and hook up another fire node so that any new Adepts get Fire I for free.
 
There are no beakers invested in Maths, couldn't really see anything useful and chose that as it would lead into Engineering. Feral Bond might be good but we also don't want to give Thessa too many heroes. On that note Octopus Overlords is still out there so we should leave that for our third civ (for Saverous and Hemah).

Oops about missing Valin. I followed him south to the border city and then didn't spot him so I assumed he headed south. He can only attack once a turn so thought we could regarrison to keep him at arms length. We want him still around when we switch civs. Him being in our midst complicates things as we could lose cities. Pretty sure he will move to the mearest neutral tile.

We have many, many sacrificaial units but Gilden should be able to take all the cities easily. If we can take some cities quickly we may just tip the balance.
 
You're right, we do have zero beakers in Math. (:smoke:)

It sounds like you thought we could switch civs before regarrisoning became too burdensome. I'd expect Valin to kill a unit every turn, or nearly so. I can see how we could keep up with that by telling two of our larger cities to each produce a warrior every other turn. But I doubt I can predict his actions well enough to pull that off safely when he has multiple potential targets and moves faster than us. If I can't see a way to make it happen, I'll try to kill him with Gilden like I said.
 
An excellent strategy discussion! :thumbsup: And if I'm following it correctly, wouldn't losing a couple of heroes right before we jump be considered a good thing? Assuming we've got enough swords to take on Einon's cities ...
 
I think before the switch we might possibly be able to make some mischief such as deleting heroes or declaring war on everyone. Whatever reduces the collective strength of the leading civs and promotes a balance of power, I guess.


480 move our giant stack back into our borders, and form a rear army led by Gilden to take out Valin. I was wrong and we actually have two mages that can cast Maelstrom, so each stack gets one.
Start Feral Bond.
Valin is in Berk.
Ice the great scientist in the hope of getting a non-scientist in 27 turns for another golden age, for short term benefit.

481 Cardith asks us to fight Sandalphon. Maybe the relations bonus would assist with some trade or something, but otherwise the balance of power does not favor our fighting Sandalphon, so I refuse.

Valin is 2 SW of our holy city Hyll: 9 tiles from his previous position, because Einon knows Engineering. At least Valin is not Commando. That would be a nightmare. Still, I'm not quite sure how I'm going to position our rear army when he can move around so fast.

I notice that Cardith and Rhoanna both have Feral Bond (but not for trade).

482 Valin is 1N of our Hippus border city Gaene.

483 Rhoanna asks us to stop trading with Cardith. She would like him, but has -3 from an event and -4 for trading with us :lol:. I refuse in case we can get a trade from Cardith (and because we're making good money from trade routes). I then check and see that she is not currently in war prep, which is good.

Interesting event:
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The first option showed no result. I thought the Armageddon bonus might help the Doviello somehow, since they appear to be running Ashen Veil. I sent the crazed Disciple down to Gaene to create a culture bomblet. He ended up going barb before he could do it, but that was still 4 XP for a Swordsman.

Valin disappears into Hippopotamusland. The rear stack is 7 turns away from Gaene.

486 Valin reappears 1 NW of Gaene, and the rear army reaches our former southern border city Yonna.
Rhoanna has learned Fanaticism but is still not in war prep. Cardith has learned Smelting and also vassalized to Einon, thereby making peace with Sandalphon.

487 Valin has crossed paths with the rear army and is now NNW of Yonna. It looks like he might pop out into the neutral jungle zone. I move the rear army back onto the same tile as Valin, and move the front army into attack position. Our border cities will be weakly defended, but the rear army will be nearby. If we lost our new city Elendiwe, that would be OK.

488 Valin is 4W of our Heroic Epic city Bruti. He is just inside our territory. Neutral territory is 1W of him, so I guess that's probably where he'll pop out. Luckily, the jungle will impede his movement a bit. The front army is 2NE of the Elohim city Oriel and the rear army is 1SE of Bruti. I think if we attack this turn, Valin will most likely head for Oriel, taking 3 turns to get there, by which time we'll have it, with reinforcements on the way.

I check for trades before attacking. Einon has learned Priesthood and now will trade Honor as well as Math and Earthmother. Cardith will buy Priesthood for 200 + map, so I do that before declaring.

I declare, and Valin pops 1W, putting him 4 tiles from Oriel. I wonder if I miscalculated, and whether he will reach the city before we do.

IBT Cardith poaches a Worker, oops. Valin chooses to move Southeast toward Elendiwe, killing a Priest of Leaves that was moving to reinforce it. He takes some damage in the process, which makes me happy. I guess he's less indestructible than I feared.

489 Oriel has a couple reinforcements and 35% defence. Lead with Maelstrom, a Tiger, and 3 unpromoted suicide Swordsmen. Then a couple Swordsmen win. Then we have some Warriors left over from Apprenticeship with 2 unspent XP, so I give them city raider and finish. I'd like to develop some city raider units if possible.

IBT Valin attacks Elendive, taking out its lone Warrior, but the dead Priest's pet Tiger is still there.

490 I move the rear army up next to Valin. He and the rear army are both on jungle tiles. I leave a modest garrison in Oriel and advance on Deluoc, which is lightly defended.

491 A free Treant pwns the Kuroiate warrior, revenging the poached worker.
Valin captures Elendiwe from the Tiger defender.
The rear army moves up next to Elendiwe.
The rear mage is eligible for Fireball, but looking at the spell description it looks like Maelstrom would hit harder, so I do that. I think he should still take Fireball, but I hold off since we don't need it just yet. Valin drops from 5.7 to 4.5. Gilden has no MP left but shows 99.9% attack odds, so I think we're stylin'.

However,

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d'oh!

I learn that Maelstrom does indeed injure units 2 diagonal tiles away, such as in the city we just captured. :mischief: But it also takes the Arquebus down to 7.5, which gives us a fighting chance. 3 suicide Swordsmen, and we're in. I decide to keep it. We still have a 2-tile chokepoint and the tiles next to it aren't roaded, so we'll have some warning when the counterattack comes in. (Also, I've almost finished building a Hawk.)

492 Feral Bond is in. I had thought the Baron would be prohibitively expensive, but I see that Bruti can do him in only 14 turns. I set the slider to 0% so that we can finish him with a rush buy. Granted, other civs have had the tech for longer, so we still might not get him.

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I'd suggest Commune with Nature (probably) or maybe IW -> Animal Mastery. The total beaker cost of both is the same. I think the units from CWN are better (good hero, and I think our Druids can summon Treants). IW does allow lumbermills, but most of our forests are already improved, and we can build workshops on forests (which I started to do on some tiles that weren't already improved.)

Back to Elendiwe. Gilden is 99.9% to kill Valin, who is already down to 5.something, but I lead with Maelstrom and two Tigers anyway to add insult to injury. The second tiger is lucky and takes him down to 1.6. Gilden boldly does the deed for 4 XP. :king:

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A Disciple is one turn outside of Delouc. I used the other Disciple we had to spread FOL into Oriel, but after experimenting I realize that we should use this Disciple for a culture bomblet in Delouc, since it will take the city out of revolt and open the possibility of Treant defenders. That's really powerful! We should build more Disciples.

A Priest and an Adept have move-to orders toward Helion. I suggest burning the Priest on a Temple, hiring a Bard, and hooking up another Fire node ASAP. Then new Adepts would at least get Fire I for free. (Would mages who didn't already have Fire I also get it upon upgrade?)

I built two Hunting Lodges and began a Hawk and Ranger. I started Hunting Lodges in two other new cities, which did not already have any other military buildings, to further diversify our army. I also built a second Mage Guild and started that city on Adepts.

The last few turnsets have been 10 turns. Might I suggest we make them longer? Since we're playing Epic, and FFH has more turns than vanilla to begin with. But I'll leave this one at 12. This is an interesting time, so I hope the upcoming turns will be fun for Conroe, who is UP.

Ozbenno
Jet
Conroe - UP
Imhotep - On Deck
Diamonmdeye
 

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