OCC research question

[Mantic0re]

I recently purchased the Civ4 gold pack with Warlords and started playing and trolling these forums. I don't feel like working so hard to win at higher levels so I've focused on maximzing my score at the lower levels. My best is a Domination win around 1840 for 20k points. That is a lot of fun for me, but also painfully time consuming (a week or more per game).


I just finished toying with a One-City-Challenge game at Chieftan (tiny pangea, philosophical). I love how fast that game is compared to the usual empire drudge. I think I understand the basics. I founded 4 religions (1 was the world favorite) spammed a few wonders and ran a heavy SE (8 or 10 specialist I think to stay under the unhealthy cap). The first G.Prophet built the Shrine and the rest were super-specialist. I ended up with mostly prophets (by choice, I was worried about mid and late game production). The first Scientest gave me an Academy. With Bureacracy, forge and factory I was producting around 110-120 hammer/turn from all the prophets I setteled.

The problem I ran into was that the research fell apart. I had gold coming out my ears and could do nothing with it because I was behind on research and didn't kiss hindquarters enough to be able to buy techs from other civs. They really expect me to trade away single serving resources when I need them to keep my citizens in line. I never anticipated this problem (even reading most of these helpful articles). I expected that on such a low difficulty level the Human research advantages would sustain me and it didn't. I don't feel like I know how to function when the AI has a tech advantage (this is one reason why I stay at lower difficulties).

I can see only 2 strategies to address this issue.

1. Caste System--> Scientist. I was in slavery for a long while because that is my crutch to control population and avoid unhappiness. I still don't have any idea whether to bulb or settle if I go this route. Since my issue was later in the game I'd probably settle.

2. Slowly start turning farms into cottages and hope the extra income keeps up when it goes through my science slider.

I'm worried that the first option can't keep up later in the game when I still haven't narrowed in on a victory condition and the second will be too slow to develop to really matter. Since I'm not experienced with the decisions involved in the SE I'll try the first option. I was hoping experienced OCC players could give me some pointers.

I'm a peacemonger at heart and prefer the cultural wins but that isn't an option. I'm behind on points, tech, and production so the Space Race (my preferred victory condition for OCC) is a super long shot and like most rookie's my diplomacy gets me laughed out of the UN (which I've never seen built).

In general I suffer from lack of direction. Which strategy do you guys use to keep up in tech? Which victory condition do you typically achieve? It is easy to see where I have room to improve but I have no idea what the finished product should look like.

I appreciate any input. Thanks.

 

[semirami]

I do not play OCC a lot, but when I do I usually beeline to Aesthetics/Lit/Music/Drama(bulb with the free artist).

- Globe theatre ASAP for no happy issues
- NE ASAP for +100% GPP
- These are great techs for trading, because AI usually delay it
- Unlock The Great Library
- Trading away all happy resources for health

Ah and build the mids at all costs

 

[vanatteveldt]

From my OCC experience:

- Globe theatre (as semirami said)
- caste system and representation are essential, pacifism is nice. Spiritual is very useful to switch between pacifism, OR, and theocracy for GP generation, buildings, and units. You can also use golden ages to switch into a GPP frenzy and switch back at the last turn.
- priests are good for production but the gold is wasted, try getting scientists instead
- wonders: pyramids and the great library
- cottages are useless in OCC, you really need a (S)SE economy to get anywhere. Before biology, every farm support half a specialist, so 3 beakers plus 1.5 GPP; since a GPP is worth around 5 beakers at this point, this is way more than an early cottage. After biology, one farm = one specialist, giving 6 beakers and 3 GPP. The GPP are a lot less useful
- a way to spend your cash is building research and buying units and infra. Not optimal since the conversion rates are inefficient, but sometimes the only way to convert cash into something useful.

O and welcome to the forums, Mantic0re, even if you're too lazy to play deity

 

[Mantic0re]

Global Theatre requires 4 theaters in order to build in Warlords.

I tried again and after getting the first or second Great Prophet I had caste system in place and loaded up on scientist. I was an entire Era ahead of the nearest civ. The whole world had only 1 religion and I really worked on diplomacy. I was loved by all so I spent hammers on 'Research' when I wasn't building units or infrastructure. I still hit a huge wall right at the end of the Industrial Era. I went from taking 10 turns to tech in the Industrial Era to 25-30 in the Modern.

The tech lead is nice but in the early 1900's I'm doing all the research work and struggling to get Electricity. That is too little too late. I invested so much into research that my hammer output was pitiful (<40 with factory, forge and Bureaucracy). Even if I get new techs I don't have enough output to benefit from the goodies and I won't be able to research the UN or Apollo Program techs before 2050. I'm wondering if changing the game speed would matter? Would Epic speed be more appropriate, or is that moving in the wrong direction?


I'm starting to think a OCC at this difficulty is not possible.

PS: I can't upgrade to BtS just yet so I'm stuck with Warlords. Does anyone have any Mod recommendations for Warlords?

 

[Celebithil]

Did you try clicking the opion "One City Challenge" in the start game screen? This allows you to built national wonders which require multiple buildings in your one city while needing only one of those buildings (i.e. you need 1 theatre for the Globe, instead of 4). (I play BTS, but I believe this option exists as well in Warlords). Moreover it gives you the opportunity to built 5 national wonders instead of 2 (thus globe, national epic, oxford and two of your choice (in BTS you'd want National park as well)). After that it is SSE al the way, as you describe you try. At monarch I can keep up with the AI and get ca. 1000 beakers/turn at the late game. Apart from scientists I try to get as many great engineers as possible, as they give hammers+science as well, and hammers are important. 5 settled GEs and 10 GScs give you already 25 base hammers, and I often obtain at least this many great people.

 

[Mantic0re]

I suck again!!!


Lol, I'm a complete tard.

I always picked play now and set everything up as a regular game but held myself to only 1 city. You are correct there is an option that makes this much simplier. Testing it out now.

 

[JTMacc99]

My one and only attempt at a OCC allows me to give you one valuable bit of advice. If you see Shaka marching a stack of catapults, impis and swords into your territory when you haven't even hooked up your metal yet, it doesn't matter how many archers you whip out. You're dead.

 

[batavier]

My one and only attempt at a OCC allows me to give you one valuable bit of advice. If you see Shaka marching a stack of catapults, impis and swords into your territory when you haven't even hooked up your metal yet, it doesn't matter how many archers you whip out. You're dead.

Get your own catapults, and chop all forests in the first ring before this
happens. Archers are good enough if you use your own catapults.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, using the actual OCC rules are essential. That allows you to build Oxford and the Globe (although I find that to be cheating in a way - try a OCC without it. If you play right, you shouldn't have any troubles unless if you want to stick in caste by the time everyone else gets emancipation).

They keys I found are,
1. in BtS, don't chop forests (okay, a few, but not all). If you leave 8 forests, when you get to biology, having 8 more specialists with the national park is really nice. With wonders, pacifism, NE, philosphical leader, you can easily get up into the 150/200 GPP per turn.
2. Don't worry about cash. Honestly. You have no maintenance, basically no unit costs, and nothing that takes money. Once you settle a priest, build a shrine, or even once you settle your first great merchant (which you got from building colossus/great lighthouse, most likely), you'll be raking in the dough.
3. Hammers come easy. You'll almost always be in a good location. Bureacracy and a forge will give you everything else you need. Plus, if you settle great engineers, great priests, or great scientists, every little bit adds up. In that regard, the heroic epic is kind of useless. Sure, it'll let you build 9 riflemen when previously you would only have built 8, but I tend to notice that there's always a cheap unit you can build to "stockpile" overflow, so units will always come in one turn. I mean, early on, it's easy to get about 40 base hammers with a few mines. Throw on forge/bureaucracy and you're up to 70 base hammers. Considering that's already basically the cost of things like maces and trebs, the extra hammers won't be as useful. And later on, you get iron works/factory/power to throw you over the top.

 

[JTMacc99]

Get your own catapults, and chop all forests in the first ring before this happens. Archers are good enough if you use your own catapults.

Sadly, there were two problems with that solution. First, I had no shot of researching construction during the period of time between when I first spotted the stack and when it arrived on my doorstep. Second, not a lot of forests left in any ring by the time of construction in the OCC I played. They all went into other projects.

 

[Supr49er]

Welcome to the Forums Mantic0re.

 

[batavier]

Sadly, there were two problems with that solution. First, I had no shot of researching construction during the period of time between when I first spotted the stack and when it arrived on my doorstep. Second, not a lot of forests left in any ring by the time of construction in the OCC I played. They all went into other projects.

I meant chop them so you can counterattack from your city more easily,
not for the hammers.
If you have an agressive neighbour, construction will be needed soon,
even if you have metals.

 

[semirami]

My one and only attempt at a OCC allows me to give you one valuable bit of advice. If you see Shaka marching a stack of catapults, impis and swords into your territory when you haven't even hooked up your metal yet, it doesn't matter how many archers you whip out. You're dead.

If you have Shaka as your neighbour, you should know that he'll attack you. You have 3 choices:

- be his best friend
- keep him busy
- if nothing else works, be first to Feudalism and Construction.

Pregunpowder war should be avoided at all costs.

 

[Mantic0re]

Got my first OCC win with an Always Peace game. Launched in 1972, the year of Watergate, Munich Summer Olympics, 'Pong' and the Last man on the Moon.

Before I built a laboratory I was making ~700 beakers / turn while building 'Research'.
In total I received GS: 11, GP: 9, GE: 5. I think I bulbed i prophet and 1 scientist cuz I wasn't paying attention. I built National Epic, National Theatre, Oxford and Ironworks (both Iron and Coal). I new that settled GS benefited from building bonuses, etc, but I never knew how good that was. Before the Laboratory (which is too late to matter) I was getting 35 beakers/turn with every GS I settled.

The turn before victory I was making 770 beakers/turn with 100% science and building a military unit. I produced 231 hammers/turn for that unit. I don't know what a typical OCC win looks like but both beaker and hammer output seemed a little low and that victory came later than I wanted. I spent a majority of the mid game building 'Research' to get there, I can't imagine getting enough techs to Launch and still building units. Is an OCC Conquest win reasonable? It seems like a game where you really only have 1 victory condition in your sights and you beeline for it with no back up.

I love these games because they are so fast. My winning game was a little over an hour and a half of real time to play. I've learned a lot about the tech tree and how to make smart choices early. I spend much more time in the foreign advisor's screen (although there really isn't much to do there on my difficulty levels). These games scratch my Wonder addiction itch and help me get over my REX-rage.

Reading up on Diety game advice I guessed that the starting location (and enemy roster) makes some games impossible to win. In this game I had 4 Flood Plains and only 1 health resource in my BFC. I think I culture stole 2 other health resources but for most of the game I was capped at 8 citizens which really hurt my development. Before testing it I would have thought this to be ideal for running specialist because of the food output. I forgot to consider overall health. It looks like the best games are gonna be on green pasture with bonus health resources for bonus food as well. Do people play every map start or do you respawn it until you get a favorable map?


I've got a new set of questions now after loosing a dozen games.

1. Is a OCC Conquest win an option? Seems like I'm stuck with diplo/space atm.
2. Do you reload the map until you get an ideal start? What does that ideal start look like?
3. I usually tech the 4 early religions and start Wonderspam. Stonehenge, Oracle, Parth are my first 3 usually before anything other than a worker. I favored GProphets early but now I think I'd prefer Engineers except their points are hard to come by early. Pushing for GE means I have to rework my wonder list to include the Pyramids (nice representation early), etc,. Which strategy is stronger?
4. Do you build Monasteries? Other civs select a religion to spite me. I need to work on diplomacy so I can get the whole world under my religion. If I can manage that without Missionaries then are building Monasteries worth the investment. Scientific Method takes that bonus away and it seems like a waste of hammers-->Research.

 

[Indiansmoke]

It really depends on the land you have...

If you have more than 3 high food resources than you can support, specialists....if not you need to cottage everything..

Best leader is obviously Elizabeth as she gets the best of both worlds

Usually prioritizing literature is the way to go and ofcourse if you can get the pyramids even better...

If you do not get the pyramids however there is no need to go drama and music after literature...you will have no hapiness issues as you will be running HR...globe needs to be in place when you adop[t representation but not before that.

It is more important to go for philosophy paper education, to get Univericity and oxford in place as quick as possible and addopt pacifism...

All great peole need to be settled unless you are close to liberialism race or need a religion...

Obviously the more religions you get the better....4 religions mean 4 monasteries..

If you can save 4-5 forests for national park, do it...usually better to save hills as you need to cottage and farm all else..

An important corporation for late game is cereal meals (or shushi if you are coastal)...the extra food will allow you to grow and run lots of scientists to be able to tech late era techs fast...

 

[semirami]

Got my first OCC win with an Always Peace game. Launched in 1972, the year of Watergate, Munich Summer Olympics, 'Pong' and the Last man on the Moon.

Before I built a laboratory I was making ~700 beakers / turn while building 'Research'.
In total I received GS: 11, GP: 9, GE: 5. I think I bulbed i prophet and 1 scientist cuz I wasn't paying attention. I built National Epic, National Theatre, Oxford and Ironworks (both Iron and Coal). I new that settled GS benefited from building bonuses, etc, but I never knew how good that was. Before the Laboratory (which is too late to matter) I was getting 35 beakers/turn with every GS I settled.

The turn before victory I was making 770 beakers/turn with 100% science and building a military unit. I produced 231 hammers/turn for that unit. I don't know what a typical OCC win looks like but both beaker and hammer output seemed a little low and that victory came later than I wanted. I spent a majority of the mid game building 'Research' to get there, I can't imagine getting enough techs to Launch and still building units. Is an OCC Conquest win reasonable? It seems like a game where you really only have 1 victory condition in your sights and you beeline for it with no back up.

I love these games because they are so fast. My winning game was a little over an hour and a half of real time to play. I've learned a lot about the tech tree and how to make smart choices early. I spend much more time in the foreign advisor's screen (although there really isn't much to do there on my difficulty levels). These games scratch my Wonder addiction itch and help me get over my REX-rage.

Reading up on Diety game advice I guessed that the starting location (and enemy roster) makes some games impossible to win. In this game I had 4 Flood Plains and only 1 health resource in my BFC. I think I culture stole 2 other health resources but for most of the game I was capped at 8 citizens which really hurt my development. Before testing it I would have thought this to be ideal for running specialist because of the food output. I forgot to consider overall health. It looks like the best games are gonna be on green pasture with bonus health resources for bonus food as well. Do people play every map start or do you respawn it until you get a favorable map?


I've got a new set of questions now after loosing a dozen games.

1. Is a OCC Conquest win an option? Seems like I'm stuck with diplo/space atm.
2. Do you reload the map until you get an ideal start? What does that ideal start look like?
3. I usually tech the 4 early religions and start Wonderspam. Stonehenge, Oracle, Parth are my first 3 usually before anything other than a worker. I favored GProphets early but now I think I'd prefer Engineers except their points are hard to come by early. Pushing for GE means I have to rework my wonder list to include the Pyramids (nice representation early), etc,. Which strategy is stronger?
4. Do you build Monasteries? Other civs select a religion to spite me. I need to work on diplomacy so I can get the whole world under my religion. If I can manage that without Missionaries then are building Monasteries worth the investment. Scientific Method takes that bonus away and it seems like a waste of hammers-->Research.

1: Yes is is an option. Check this thread


2: Some players reload, other do not reload. This is true for normal game too. The best map, something like decent food, some production and at least 4 resources in BFC and other 4 in third and fourth ring.

3. You don't need a religions, at least not all. Research more important techs like worker techs and those that enable wonders and/or civics. Just adopt the dominant world religion, or if there are religious blocks do not adopt religion at all. For me there are 3 kind wonders. Top priority= must have, build at all costs, second priority= build only if you have time and useless= don't bother

Top:

The Pyramids
The Great Library
The Temple of Aretimis
The Hanging Gardens
The Oracle
The Great Lighthouse(if coastal)

Good:

The Great Wall
Stonehenge
The Parthenon
Angkor Wat
Taj Mahal
The Collosus(if coastal)

useless:

everything else

4. Yes the monastery is good building to have, but isn't very high priority for me. You don't neet to get the whole world in your religion, just get the world religion. Spreading a religion is close to useless. The reward isn't great, not to mention, that you must burn a prophet to build the shrine. And the hammers spent on missionaries is really a great waste.

 

[Mantic0re]

Hmm. I've been sticking with Gandhi. He starts with Mysticism so I am more likely to pick up the early religions if I prioritize them. I am also worried about time lost in anarchy when switching Civics. I'm in a wonderspam race early and not sure I can afford losing a turn of production even while chopping. You think financial would be better in the long run? Most of my experiences have been working 1-3 farms and 2 bonus food and running lots of specialist. I don't collect much gold in my BFC.

It seems I've been a little too preoccupied with controlling religions. Spreading one is a pain even when I burn a great Prophet to make a shrine.

@Semirami
I want engineers, scientist and prophets (mostly in that order)
I've been avoiding Wonder's that produce merchant and artist with the sole exception of the Parthenon. You have that on your 2nd list and your first has the Temple of Artemis (merchant). Why is 1 more priest preferred over 50% more GPP?

 

[Indiansmoke]

Hmm. I've been sticking with Gandhi. He starts with Mysticism so I am more likely to pick up the early religions if I prioritize them. I am also worried about time lost in anarchy when switching Civics. I'm in a wonderspam race early and not sure I can afford losing a turn of production even while chopping. You think financial would be better in the long run? Most of my experiences have been working 1-3 farms and 2 bonus food and running lots of specialist. I don't collect much gold in my BFC.

I haven't found anything regarding corporations in Warlords. I know I don't have access to national parks. Even Early it seems health is a bigger limiter than happiness. I've got religions and can drop temples if I'm desperate to keep happiness down. I am careful about working squares so that my city isn't out of control.

Every OCC game I've tried so far has been near floodplains and back up to plains/hills. I bet in greener pasture with less food resources the game looks different.



Build Monasteries; Gotcha.


Typically I research like this:
Meditation, Polytheism, Bronzeworking(chopping), Masonry, monotheism, priesthood, writing, Code of Laws (Oracle bonus), Philosophy, alphabet

This gives me religions which I hope to spread for some easy allies, early wonders, Civic must-haves, and some good trading currency to start filling in the stuff I skipped.

Elizabeth is much better than Ghandi...you can time your civic changes to minimize anarchy....saying that you are playing warlords....hmm...very different there...no national park, no corporations and no free civic changes with golden ages!!!

I suggest you get BTS

 

[Indiansmoke]

Typically I research like this:
Meditation, Polytheism, Bronzeworking(chopping), Masonry, monotheism, priesthood, writing, Code of Laws (Oracle bonus), Philosophy, alphabet

This gives me religions which I hope to spread for some easy allies, early wonders, Civic must-haves, and some good trading currency to start filling in the stuff I skipped.

Well get elizabeth and try getting agriculture, (animal husbandry if there are any resources around), bronze, pottery....cottage all the floods and then go for religions....

No point in going for all if any early religions, since you can get codes of law with oracle...and propably buld theology first.

 

[semirami]

Hmm. I've been sticking with Gandhi. He starts with Mysticism so I am more likely to pick up the early religions if I prioritize them. I am also worried about time lost in anarchy when switching Civics. I'm in a wonderspam race early and not sure I can afford losing a turn of production even while chopping. You think financial would be better in the long run? Most of my experiences have been working 1-3 farms and 2 bonus food and running lots of specialist. I don't collect much gold in my BFC.

It seems I've been a little too preoccupied with controlling religions. Spreading one is a pain even when I burn a great Prophet to make a shrine.

@Semirami
I want engineers, scientist and prophets (mostly in that order)
I've been avoiding Wonder's that produce merchant and artist with the sole exception of the Parthenon. You have that on your 2nd list and your first has the Temple of Artemis (merchant). Why is 1 more priest preferred over 50% more GPP?

ToA- Every wonder that give benefits to only one city(where it is build) is good for OCC. Well +100% from trade routes and that's commerce converted directly to beakers, 5 GPP instead of 2. It's still more prophet points, than merchant. Last it's not the end of the world, if you pop a merchant. Dont forget, that it's still representative specialist and adds 1 food= 1/2 additional scientist.

Ah, Gandhi is much better than Elizabeth. Financial trait is not good for OCC and just forget for cottages, farms, mines and specialists, that's what you need.