OCC whipping

[Ungeziefer]

You're paying a rather hefty cost to shave off 20 turns of production -- I'm having difficulty seeing why you think it's a good trade

By the time I'm done with the Mids, I'm usually starting to tech Aesthetics, so the GE pops up close to when I finish Literature (often before). One day I told myself "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to rush the Glib?" and I've been doing that since then.
I'm entirely open to try running scientists asap after the Mids to see if it works better (in fact I'll do that in my next game) but I've found that this method saves you a lot of building time, allowing NE, Sistine and the Globe to be built faster and before you reach Education (delaying Oxford is a problem I've encountered especially in a production-poor city)
Then running scientists while teching Aesthetics and Literature might speed them up enough and prove itself optimal
However the price I'm paying is by no means rather hefty, the impact of an early GLib is non-negligeable (for example the next GS comes faster, compensating the GP points generated from running scientists earlier)

 

[Colonel Mustard]

err, national wonders are limited to 4 instead of 2 in OCC?

In BtS OCC you can build 5 National Wonders, and any restrictions such as 'Medicine and 6 hospitals needed' are lifted.

--------------------

[...]I'm entirely open to try running scientists asap after the Mids to see if it works better (in fact I'll do that in my next game) but I've found that this method saves you a lot of building time, allowing NE, Sistine and the Globe to be built faster and before you reach Education (delaying Oxford is a problem I've encountered especially in a production-poor city

I pre-chop the GLib and push it out in about 8 turns, build the NE, but hang off on the Globe until I trade for Drama. Which can admittedly take a while as the AIs do not want to part with it. I very rarely miss the GLib. There's no rush for the Globe, I'd rather build the Angkor Wat, I can sometimes fit the Shwedagon Paya with a late Mids+forge engineer in as well.

I bulb Education so that it comes around 10 turns earlier and I pre-chop Oxford if I've no Stone, (the only other bulb I make is Philosophy, both of which set me up for Liberalism, and hopefully keep a religion out of the AI's hands).

[...](delaying Oxford is a problem I've encountered especially in a production-poor city

The answer to that is don't settle a production-poor city

 

[Ungeziefer]

I pre-chop the GLib and push it out in about 8 turns, build the NE, but hang off on the Globe until I trade for Drama. Which can admittedly take a while as the AIs do not want to part with it. I very rarely miss the GLib. There's no rush for the Globe, I'd rather build the Angkor Wat, I can sometimes fit the Shwedagon Paya with a late Mids+forge engineer in as well.

I bulb Education so that it comes around 10 turns earlier and I pre-chop Oxford if I've no Stone, (the only other bulb I make is Philosophy, both of which set me up for Liberalism, and hopefully keep a religion out of the AI's hands).

The answer to that is don't settle a production-poor city

Well I guess it's always a good challenge once you've mastered a difficulty level, it's not really detrimental for SS building, it just requires you to switch to SP earlier and build some workshops

Pre-chopping NW seems the way to go, how many workers do you have at this point?

I don't like to delay the Globe, seems like I'm wasting turns which I could spend on growing

I've found that Philo is not a very good bulb, you can trade it or tech it in like 3-4 turns on Epic speed after you've reached Chemistry/SM anyway, and I never adopt Pacifism since my 2 neighbors always have different religions and I don't want to mess around with diplo with a lone warrior defending my city . .
Do you run Pacifism with your "never-ending quest to keep [your] power level up" ?

I might want to reconsider this and stir up wars between my neighbors. Just haven't felt the need to do so up to now.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

@Colonel Mustard: Precisely my point. I'd argue that Wall Street is less useful than Red Cross (one never has money problems in an OCC, and I don't run Universal Suffrage to rush buy (Representation all the way), so what am I going to use the money for?), but neither is very useful.[...]

You've won me over with your argument

[...]Pre-chopping NW seems the way to go, how many workers do you have at this point?

3 normally - two stacked (pre)chopping, the other one mining the hills in my ever-expanding borders (or chopping/road building when necessary); raised to 4 in time for Sci Method to preserve the forests quickly.

I've found that Philo is not a very good bulb, you can trade it or tech it in like 3-4 turns on Epic speed after you've reached Chemistry/SM anyway, and I never adopt Pacifism since my 2 neighbors always have different religions and I don't want to mess around with diplo with a lone warrior defending my city . . Do you run Pacifism with your "never-ending quest to keep [your] power level up" ?

I've read a few posts saying that the AI doesn't prioritise Philo if it's already gone, which then holds them back on the Liberalism race. I tried it out and it works, I don't trade it out until I've got Education; and I never trade Ed unless I'm tech-tagging. It allows me to snag the Angkor Wat as well.

As for Pacifism I don't get to run it often unless Isabella's converted the world or I've got the same-religion bully boys as neighbours. If I am running it then that's the reason I want all that . Even after all this time I find it faintly ridiculous that you have to be religious to be a pacifist.

I don't know if anything I'm doing above is optimal play but I rarely lose the Lib race (unless Mansa is on the map), but i'm also not in the position to get Biology either . So next game I'm going to try the strategy in the thread you linked and see if I can pull it off.

[...]I might want to reconsider this and stir up wars between my neighbors. Just haven't felt the need to do so up to now

Why on earth not? Unless you're in a position where picking a side means certain death then any wars you stir up hold the civs back from researching (unless it's Ragnar for some reason, in my games he always seems to be able to war and tech madly). On a side note what's your view on Open Borders?

 

[Ungeziefer]

3 normally - two stacked (pre)chopping, the other one mining the hills in my ever-expanding borders (or chopping/road building when necessary); raised to 4 in time for Sci Method to preserve the forests quickly.

Ok, do you mine the hills for the random resource pop-up? if yes, then only mines in the BFC can pop resources (and only if they are worked I think).

I've read a few posts saying that the AI doesn't prioritise Philo if it's already gone, which then holds them back on the Liberalism race. I tried it out and it works, I don't trade it out until I've got Education; and I never trade Ed unless I'm tech-tagging. It allows me to snag the Angkor Wat as well.

The AI may tech Philo but then it doesn't prioritise Education because it is so darn expensive and it takes them so much time to finish it. Delaying Philo for the AI is not really important (and I never build AW, what do you use it for?)

Why on earth not?

I guess I'm just lazy

On a side note what's your view on Open Borders?

I accept OB from the AI but I never initiate the trade, since I know they will eventually ask me (unless they are called Tokugawa...). OB is useful for the +2 diplo pts you get in the long run and which will often bring you to pleased when coupled w/ the "+1 Years of peace" and the "fair" (humhumh-umfairhumhum) trade bonus
I don't think they can cause "you traded with our worst enemy" malus if that's what you had in mind

 

[MyOtherName]

I'm entirely open to try running scientists asap after the Mids to see if it works better (in fact I'll do that in my next game) but I've found that this method saves you a lot of building time, allowing NE, Sistine and the Globe to be built faster and before you reach Education (delaying Oxford is a problem I've encountered especially in a production-poor city)

Sistene?!?! Oooooh, right, to counter AI cultural. I never had a problem with that on Emperor, so the thought didn't even cross my mind. When I do build the Globe, I don't often find it to be such an immediate concern, and can get by with resource trades (and the slider, if I even have Drama).

However the price I'm paying is by no means rather hefty, the impact of an early GLib is non-negligeable (for example the next GS comes faster,

You're talking about the benefit here, not the cost. The cost is a permanent loss of 3 3 before modification. Or, from a different point of view, the cost is that delayed initial production of and you have acquired a penalty of 100 per great person for your first 9 great persons and a penalty of 200 per person for every great person thereafter.

That is a hefty cost. The benefit may make it worth paying the cost, but it's by no means obvious.

 

[MyOtherName]

I accept OB from the AI but I never initiate the trade, since I know they will eventually ask me (unless they are called Tokugawa...). OB is useful for the +2 diplo pts you get in the long run and which will often bring you to pleased when coupled w/ the "+1 Years of peace" and the "fair" (humhumh-umfairhumhum) trade bonus
I don't think they can cause "you traded with our worst enemy" malus if that's what you had in mind

Their drawback is that an open border agreement with civ X unlocks the possibility that civ Y will ask you to stop trading with them.

 

[Ungeziefer]

You're talking about the benefit here, not the cost.

Oops sorry I read too quickly, I thought you said that I paid a hefty price, implying some kind of sacrifice.

The cost is a permanent loss of 3 3 before modification. Or, from a different point of view, the cost is that delayed initial production of and you have acquired a penalty of 100 per great person for your first 9 great persons and a penalty of 200 per person for every great person thereafter.

That is a hefty cost. The benefit may make it worth paying the cost, but it's by no means obvious.

I feel this is the same situation as when you are researching Education. I always use a GS to part-bulb it in order to speed up Oxford and the university. The Edu bulb seems a bit more obvious to me however, since a +125% science boost 10-15 turns earlier (epic speed) is really nice

I started a rough estimation of the long-term benefits of each method (basically at what point does GE-rushing begins to lose to earlier scientists) but it is just too long to do.
I'd be happy if you had the time to make one (jk)

Their drawback is that an open border agreement with civ X unlocks the possibility that civ Y will ask you to stop trading with them.

Thanks, nice to know, I'll reconsider always accepting OB now

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Ok, do you mine the hills for the random resource pop-up? if yes, then only mines in the BFC can pop resources (and only if they are worked I think).

Ah, I've been popping resources like Aluminium and Coal but they would've appeared anyway. Complete waste of worker turns then. And my time

[...]and I never build AW, what do you use it for?

The extra hammer from the priest specialists, it opens up three more slots, and the priests are then mini-engineers with the benefits of extra gold. Yes, I know, I'm obsessed.

I accept OB from the AI but I never initiate the trade, since I know they will eventually ask me (unless they are called Tokugawa...). OB is useful for the +2 diplo pts you get in the long run and which will often bring you to pleased when coupled w/ the "+1 Years of peace" and the "fair" (humhumh-umfairhumhum) trade bonus
I don't think they can cause "you traded with our worst enemy" malus if that's what you had in mind

Their drawback is that an open border agreement with civ X unlocks the possibility that civ Y will ask you to stop trading with them.

^This. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln: You can keep some of the civs happy all of the time, and all of the civs some of the time, but not all of the civs all of the time.

Plus, how often are you being DoWed by civs you have open borders with? I've noticed a trend of a civ going into wheoohrn and then immediately asking to open borders. I think it's called scoping out the land so they know what type of units to kill you with

 

[Ataxerxes]

Ah, I've been popping resources like Aluminium and Coal but they would've appeared anyway. Complete waste of worker turns then. And my time

The extra hammer from the priest specialists, it opens up three more slots, and the priests are then mini-engineers with the benefits of extra gold. Yes, I know, I'm obsessed.

^This. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln: You can keep some of the civs happy all of the time, and all of the civs some of the time, but not all of the civs all of the time.

Plus, how often are you being DoWed by civs you have open borders with? I've noticed a trend of a civ going into wheoohrn and then immediately asking to open borders. I think it's called scoping out the land so they know what type of units to kill you with

The random popup of resource when you mine a BFC hill occurs too rarely for me to worry about. I mine all hills that don't have forests early and I still rarely get the resource pop-up from the mine. It happens but it doesn't impact my decision making much. However, you wouldn't get the random popup without the mine.

I have to disaree about the Priest specialists. If your OCC is pulling in a little gold for a few crucial unit upgrades that's enough. I run Engineer and Scientist specialists (partly influenced by AlexFrog) because those are the GP's I most want. AW doesn't give enough for me to delay other wonders. I have the same national wonders you do. I'm sure the reference to wonders like Red Cross was a joke. Like you, I think Globe is important for the happy cap. You can even get your gold by trading away a couple of happiness resources.

I give Open Borders almost all the time, especially with my neighbors. It does help to scope out their land and you get +1 or 2 diplo which helps. If I'm asked to close borders by a neighbor I usually do it, figuring if nothing else that neighbor is distracted. Maybe mutual military struggle is in my horoscope for a phony war (I might even contribute a Rifleman)? Here's a minor AP trick - since you usually won't have the votes to influence the AP resident election or proposals, you vote for your neighbor for the +2 "You voted for us" diplo bonus. Really, the essential point is to keep your neighbors happy. Quite often, the other side of the world feels like the other side of the world in a literal sense.

Early library or not, for me, depends on the food situation. More food, better for whipping an early library. However, I play with Espionage on, so sometimes the Great Spy from the Great Wall can be as good as a Scientist. Your mileage may vary.

I admit to rerolling some starts, like you. As AlexFrog explains, a poor start in an OCC (yes, coastal start is usually poor) dooms you.

I usually switch to Pacifism about the same time I switch to Environmentalism. I usually play normal speed, so I don't pay for an extra turn of anarchy. By that point I don't find it quite so urgent to build wonders ASAP with all the production modifiers. I seldom use Pacifism outside of OCC because it only benefits the GP farm. In an OCC, your city is your GP farm.

Somebody mentioned skipping Sistine because they're not endangered by AI Cultural victories at Emperor. Frankly, that shocks me. Even with building Sistine for denial I'm often racing some clowns cultural victory. And I usually don't have enough military to go raze a town on the other side of the planet.

@Keilah - if I had 14 forests in my BFC I would have done some early chopping. I usually don't chop early in the BFC, but before Biology I'll need more than 6 good tiles. And the main benefit of the Globe is before Biology - that's when the happy cap bites. I always go Globe, National Park, Ironworks (admittedly a risk), Oxford, and National Epic. No other national wonder seems worthwhile.

 

[stimpyhoek]

Never ever whip. Thats just a crime. Only production u ever need is for a quick library. Doesnt building National Park mean u cant have ironworks and negate coal hammers? A fast national park can be handy if u dont need the hammers tho. Anyway monarchy 1st then oxford then constitution. Wonder lust destroys every good occ game. Try not to build a single wonder unless u can oracle civil service. 1 more thing, settle all great people( an exception is bulb education)

 

[Colonel Mustard]

[...]I have to disaree about the Priest specialists. If your OCC is pulling in a little gold for a few crucial unit upgrades that's enough. I run Engineer and Scientist specialists (partly influenced by AlexFrog) because those are the GP's I most want.

Along with the forge Engineer I run the Priests until I get the Ironworks' slots - two Angkor Wat Priests give the equivalent of a plains hill mine. Two settled Priests give the mine plus two gold short of a couple of settled Merchants. I do seem to be at odds with everyone about specialists, I need to do a rethink.

Really, the essential point is to keep your neighbors happy. Quite often, the other side of the world feels like the other side of the world in a literal sense.

I agree. The only problem is when you have 5 neighbours - I've had some nightmarish centre-of-pangea-map games.

Early library or not, for me, depends on the food situation. More food, better for whipping an early library.

Since starting this thread I've given some thought to this and it seems dependent on whether I've got Stone or not. Without it the Pyramids can take (quite) a while to build which is then delaying the library even longer. My next non-Stone start I'm going to go straight for the 'mids and then replay it with a library chop. With Stone = no brainer.

General question: how many specialists are people running before Biology?

 

[Ungeziefer]

The random popup of resource when you mine a BFC hill occurs too rarely for me to worry about. I mine all hills that don't have forests early and I still rarely get the resource pop-up from the mine. It happens but it doesn't impact my decision making much. However, you wouldn't get the random popup without the mine.

I have to disaree about the Priest specialists. If your OCC is pulling in a little gold for a few crucial unit upgrades that's enough. I run Engineer and Scientist specialists (partly influenced by AlexFrog) because those are the GP's I most want. AW doesn't give enough for me to delay other wonders. I have the same national wonders you do. I'm sure the reference to wonders like Red Cross was a joke. Like you, I think Globe is important for the happy cap. You can even get your gold by trading away a couple of happiness resources.

I give Open Borders almost all the time, especially with my neighbors. It does help to scope out their land and you get +1 or 2 diplo which helps. If I'm asked to close borders by a neighbor I usually do it, figuring if nothing else that neighbor is distracted. Maybe mutual military struggle is in my horoscope for a phony war (I might even contribute a Rifleman)? Here's a minor AP trick - since you usually won't have the votes to influence the AP resident election or proposals, you vote for your neighbor for the +2 "You voted for us" diplo bonus. Really, the essential point is to keep your neighbors happy. Quite often, the other side of the world feels like the other side of the world in a literal sense.

Early library or not, for me, depends on the food situation. More food, better for whipping an early library. However, I play with Espionage on, so sometimes the Great Spy from the Great Wall can be as good as a Scientist. Your mileage may vary.

I admit to rerolling some starts, like you. As AlexFrog explains, a poor start in an OCC (yes, coastal start is usually poor) dooms you.

I usually switch to Pacifism about the same time I switch to Environmentalism. I usually play normal speed, so I don't pay for an extra turn of anarchy. By that point I don't find it quite so urgent to build wonders ASAP with all the production modifiers. I seldom use Pacifism outside of OCC because it only benefits the GP farm. In an OCC, your city is your GP farm.

Somebody mentioned skipping Sistine because they're not endangered by AI Cultural victories at Emperor. Frankly, that shocks me. Even with building Sistine for denial I'm often racing some clowns cultural victory. And I usually don't have enough military to go raze a town on the other side of the planet.

@Keilah - if I had 14 forests in my BFC I would have done some early chopping. I usually don't chop early in the BFC, but before Biology I'll need more than 6 good tiles. And the main benefit of the Globe is before Biology - that's when the happy cap bites. I always go Globe, National Park, Ironworks (admittedly a risk), Oxford, and National Epic. No other national wonder seems worthwhile.

My thoughts exactly, I too am (super)influenced by Alexfrog, though I disagree with some parts of his strategy (the prevalence of the Oracle for example, I only attempt to build it if I have marble hooked up)

Along with the forge Engineer I run the Priests until I get the Ironworks' slots - two Angkor Wat Priests give the equivalent of a plains hill mine. Two settled Priests give the mine plus two gold short of a couple of settled Merchants. I do seem to be at odds with everyone about specialists, I need to do a rethink.
[...]
General question: how many specialists are people running before Biology?

Do you want the hammers for Globe+Oxford? Else it seems that hammers are irrelevant at this stage of the game, if in need for money just trade your happy resources for gpt.

I run between 5 (max # with Oxford, university and library I think) and 7~8, depending on food and if I'm done growing to max size pre-biology. After, it ranges from 15 to a whopping 25 in 1 game . These are all scientists btw until I start Apollo, I don't work 0 or 1 food tiles unless they are gold/gems or I have an odd food #.

@ Atarexes: Do you adopt the same religion as your neighbors in Pacifism? If so, how do you manage to get them to convert to the same religion?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Do you want the hammers for Globe+Oxford? Else it seems that hammers are irrelevant at this stage of the game, if in need for money just trade your happy resources for gpt.

Using the same reasoning you don't need the Engineers either .

I'm sure someone at some point has done a cost/benefit analysis but I'm too lazy to do a search. I know I'm and that many of the much better players don't rate prophets that highly (I'm going to drop it after this one last resounding thrashing ). Imho you can never have too many hammers, especially in the early game; there's only one forge and only one Engineer. An Angkor Wat Priest is another Engineer.

In most OCCs there's not normally an over-abundance of resources, especially not two or more of any particular type. (In a lot of games) you can't afford to sell your single happy/health ones until you've got the Globe/Biology, consequently no early-game gpt. A Priest specialist gets the treasury rolling, a settled GPriest gets it steam-rolling, and the slider's still at 100%.

My thinking: Over the space of x number of turns the forge-modified hammers from an AW Priest can churn out another catapult so as to do just that little bit more damage to Shaka's SoD that you can pick it off. Over the same x number of turns the gold accumulated for a settled GPriest can quickly upgrade that lowly spearman into a pikeman so that his one remaining knight can't flank attack your Priest-produced catapult. No desperation whip, no lost specialist.

Obviously those extra hammers can make the difference to lots of things. Need that Iron in Mao's borders? Need to push your borders out? Need that Cathedral in three turns not four? Here, have some hammers. Need some gold to upgrade your units when he DoWs you? Here...

 

[vanatteveldt]

consequently no early-game gpt. A Priest specialist gets the treasury rolling, a settled GPriest gets it steam-rolling, and the slider's still at 100%.

I really don't understand what you need the money for. You can usually get some money out of huts or trades, and you have almost zero costs.

(Only things that cost money are a large army under pacifism (but that's only relevant if you're gunning for military victory or need to take out a culture city, which are pretty special cases) and late game corporations on traded resources (which can actually add some real food+production if you manage to buy 5-10 resources, but that costs a lot of money really quickly.. but that's a pretty special case too!

I usually build one of the early prophet wonders*, so I generally get a great prophet at some point anyway, and +5 gold seems more than enough for most of the game. *) I try to keep my pool somewhat pure but some wonders like oracle or ToA are pretty useful to kickstart the economy, and you need to build NE and GT anyway, so a really pure pool is not possible... and 10+ scientists drown out most other sources in any event.

 

[mtr12]

I reroll OCC's a lot because a really bad start (eg: 1 Plainscow for food) basically means gg.

 

[Ataxerxes]

My thoughts exactly, I too am (super)influenced by Alexfrog, though I disagree with some parts of his strategy (the prevalence of the Oracle for example, I only attempt to build it if I have marble hooked up)

@ Atarexes: Do you adopt the same religion as your neighbors in Pacifism? If so, how do you manage to get them to convert to the same religion?

Anybody attempting OCC should read his guide. I agree you don't want to follow him slavishly but he's a great starting point. I'm going to have to rethink the Oracle myself.

I usually go Organized Religion and then later game pacifism. I absolutely adopt the same religion of my neighbors when possible (Colonel Mustard's situation sounds like a nightmare - that might have been my only transfer into Free Religion). I occassionally convert a neighbor if I found a later religion, but I prefer the passive approach. If you don't found a religion and a neighbor does, you often get a religion pretty quickly. And the AI is more likely to stay in a religion it founds. On a large map you sometimes have to take a chance and try to convert a neighbor. If a neighbor has a religion, don't found one yourself - the spread from a neighbor will be less likely. It'll spread pretty quickly - I love it if Izzy shows up next door. I also notice the AI will trade Monotheism if it's a monopoly tech - one more reason not to research it myself and found an early religion without a free missionary.

 

[MyOtherName]

General question: how many specialists are people running before Biology?

For the most part, I just work food and specialists, and get as many specialists as possible. (rarely I might even chop a forest or two for farms)

The exception is when I need to build something fast, e.g. Pyramids, Great Library, National Epic, and later Oxford, at which point I'll be working tiles.

Sometimes I will allow myself to be happiness limited, if I feel it's not worth the time to build the Globe Theater; I often even skip Drama entirely.

Imho you can never have too many hammers, especially in the early game; there's only one forge and only one Engineer. An Angkor Wat Priest is another Engineer.

The aren't the reason to run the engineer. The engineer are the reason to run the engineer. To set your city up for the long term, the two main things you need are bonus sources of and -- that is precisely what great engineers and great scientists give you. And I usually place the emphasis on the because scientists are more useful than engineers for much of the game, and it's easy to dramatically increase your (at the expense of ) towards the end of the game.

Looking specifically for bonus sources of can be tricky. If you have too much bonus , it's hard to make efficient use of it -- when I get several prophets, I often find myself with thousands of with no useful use when I launch the spaceship (sometimes, I get this even without prophets). On the other hand, if you have too little bonus gold, it's not difficult to acquire more through tech trades or lowering the slider.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

[...]I usually go Organized Religion and then later game pacifism. I absolutely adopt the same religion of my neighbors when possible (Colonel Mustard's situation sounds like a nightmare - that might have been my only transfer into Free Religion).

That's my reason for getting the Shwedagon Paya for the early Free Religion - you can have all seven religions but no-one can ask you to convert because it would mean revolting into a religion based civic first. I did have one game where Sury asked me to adopt Organized Religion and two turns later Saladin asked me to convert from No State to Islam. Luckily I was spiritual so managed to get myself out of both of them easily before someone started plotting a DoW.

For the most part, I just work food and specialists, and get as many specialists as possible. (rarely I might even chop a forest or two for farms)

I've normally been working farms and mines with the excess food to run specialists but that's made me rethink my strategy.

The aren't the reason to run the engineer.

I was playing devil's advocate with that one

I really don't understand what you need the money for. You can usually get some money out of huts or trades, and you have almost zero costs.

(Only things that cost money are a large army under pacifism (but that's only relevant if you're gunning for military victory or need to take out a culture city, which are pretty special cases) and late game corporations on traded resources (which can actually add some real food+production if you manage to buy 5-10 resources, but that costs a lot of money really quickly.. but that's a pretty special case too!

I usually build one of the early prophet wonders*, so I generally get a great prophet at some point anyway, and +5 gold seems more than enough for most of the game. *) I try to keep my pool somewhat pure but some wonders like oracle or ToA are pretty useful to kickstart the economy, and you need to build NE and GT anyway, so a really pure pool is not possible... and 10+ scientists drown out most other sources in any event.

I'm not advocating 10 priests but I do (over)rely on them, this thread has shown me the error of my ways. I like the ToA for a) the free Priest and b) the Merchant gpp to settle a GMerchant for the food to up the population (and yes the gold). I normally only go for it if I've got marble and good production, the AI loves it.

@mtr12 - I may be being dim but "gg"?


------------------
EDIT:

[...]Anyway monarchy 1st then oxford then constitution. Wonder lust destroys every good occ game. Try not to build a single wonder unless u can oracle civil service.[...]

I assume this is a troll.

 

[Ungeziefer]

I really don't understand what you need the money for. You can usually get some money out of huts or trades, and you have almost zero costs.

Gold is useful for tech trades, most of the time the AI does not accept a fair trade tech (same beaker cost) but wants money or another ridiculously expensive tech.
The best way to refill your treasury though is to sell old techs to the backwards AI, especially military techs if you want to stir up wars and don't want them to get stomped.

I normally only go for it if I've got marble and good production, the AI loves it.

@mtr12 - I may be being dim but "gg"?

When do you build it? After the Mids? It can be built very early (1500 BCish) sometimes, though I have considered building it for its benefits (never actually did)

I am taking the liberty of responding for mtr12 : I guess gg is good game, so basically game over (that's what the AI says when it gives up on Warcraft III IIRC )