OCC whipping

[Colonel Mustard]

Gold is useful for tech trades, most of the time the AI does not accept a fair trade tech (same beaker cost) but wants money or another ridiculously expensive tech.

I lol everytime:
"Will you trade Calendar for (same cost) Code of Laws?"
"That's just crazy-talk. I don't think it can be done."
"What would make this deal work?"
"Code of Laws and Feudalism."

When do you build it? After the Mids? It can be built very early (1500 BCish) sometimes, though I have considered building it for its benefits (never actually did)

I've only built it a couple of times (with Marble) and both times after the Mids with Stone, otherwise the Mids take too long and I can't fit it in before the next wonder.

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Rant:

As this has mutated into a generalised OCC thread: AI settling , nothing winds me up more. I mentioned earlier on about my reasons for Raging Barbs and the Great Wall. I won't quote myself - that's almost as bad as Lemon Merchant consistently referring to herself in the third person . The AI settling before the third border pop is, depending on the civ, almost a guaranteed DoW. I wish there was an algorithm:

IF human is playing OCC
THEN don't settle city to block
ELSE it will be culture-razed

Closely followed by:

IF last city was cultured-razed
THEN learn your lesson

By the time I reached Legendary in my first OCC I had a three tile horizontal line of city ruins.

In another thread TMIT mentioned about OCC civs settling into "your" space and becoming a monster. Quite often I find the opposite to be true, civ A rushes their second city up to your border to block and ignores their other flank, which is then filled by civ B. This continues until civ A has 2 or 3 cities on your borders and 2 or 3 on civ B's. You then start culture razing them and they are left with a rump of a 3 or 4 city empire. A DoW ensues unless you've managed to get them pleased/friendly, which can often be difficult when there's already a -2 "close borders causing tensions" diplo hit.

I've abandoned games when I've scouted and found a rival's capital's borders are going to be knocking mine sooner than later. Do others do this or do you ride it out? In fact, another generalised question, under what circumstances do you abandon games (early)?

 

[Ungeziefer]

I lol everytime:
"Will you trade Calendar for (same cost) Code of Laws?"
"That's just crazy-talk. I don't think it can be done."
"What would make this deal work?"
"Code of Laws and Feudalism."

And the usual:
"What do you think of this deal?"
"X offers Monotheism. You offer Scientific Method."
"YyyyyyNO"

Do others do this or do you ride it out? In fact, another generalised question, under what circumstances do you abandon games (early)?

Weird, this almost never happens to me. By the time the AI settles near my borders my 3rd border pop happened long ago. They often settle in the "legendary ring", which my city rarely reaches now (no more wonderspam ).
The -2 penalty is just annoying and to be coped with, but in my games the AI usually asks for tribute (which I happily give) before DoWing, and if an AI goes to WHEOOHRN and can DoW me (Cautious or Pleased for some, Any for Cathy...) I'll just start pumping out units.

When do I abandon? DeGaulle getting a 1830 cultural victory on Monarch...
Else it was when the AI was too close to a cultural victory, but since I started to build Sistine for denial purposes it doesn't happen anymore.

EDIT: By the way, around when does the AI win cultural in your games? Are they usually close to winning when you launch?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

And the usual:
"What do you think of this deal?"
"X offers Monotheism. You offer Scientific Method."
"YyyyyyNO"

That's along the lines of a recent game -
Me (to a Friendly neighbour): "what do you want for that spare pig?" Friendly neighbour: "5 gpt, Gold, Oil, Coal, Horse"
Now there's greed, and there's taking the p*ss.

Weird, this almost never happens to me. By the time the AI settles near my borders my 3rd border pop happened long ago. They often settle in the "legendary ring", which my city rarely reaches now (no more wonderspam ).

What wonders are you not 'spamming' that you were before?

EDIT: By the way, around when does the AI win cultural in your games? Are they usually close to winning when you launch?

They never have, they may have the two cities but the third has quite a way to go. I played one game with just a Cultural victory setting and Permanent Alliances on so I could see inside Hatty's cities, her 2nd one had 45 turns (i.e. 2001) to go Legendary and she was building Research! I'd gone Legendary in 1852.

After that I test-played another Cultural only without PAs this time (so I couldn't win), the earliest Sury won was 2025. I've only played 16 Monarch games (and lost the first four to barbs) so it's not really a proper sample. I could've played more if I wasn't spending so much time at CFC trying to up my game, I think I'm actually developing a screen-staring
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Edit:

My last two games I set up Conquest only with PAs on and allied myself with Toku both times and we cleared the map. I really felt like a couple of good war games (the only thing I miss from non-OCCs). So like I said not really a good sample set.

 

[MyOtherName]

And the usual:
"What do you think of this deal?"
"X offers Monotheism. You offer Scientific Method."
"YyyyyyNO"

IIRC, when the AI offers you Monotheism for Scientific Method + 30 gold, it means that have nearly completely researched Scientific Method, so it really is only worth chump change in a trade.

 

[Ungeziefer]

What wonders are you not 'spamming' that you were before?

Parthenon, ToA, GLH +Colossus in coastal starts, HG, which I now only build after the Globe to avoid bumping in the happy cap, and some others.
I built the SoL once, I figured that an extra scientist would be worth it
That's strange though, since I didn't build Sistine before and now I do, so the culture from the specialists should really outweigh wonder culture... Maybe I still do get Legendary status but I don't pay attention to it anymore


What wonders do you build apart from the GLib and the Mids?

They never have, they may have the two cities but the third has quite a way to go. I played one game with just a Cultural victory setting and Permanent Alliances on so I could see inside Hatty's cities, her 2nd one had 45 turns (i.e. 2001) to go Legendary and she was building Research! I'd gone Legendary in 1852.

Again - weird, do you build Sistine in your games?

IIRC, when the AI offers you Monotheism for Scientific Method + 30 gold, it means that have nearly completely researched Scientific Method, so it really is only worth chump change in a trade.

Most of the time yes it is the case, but sometimes some greedy backwards AI offers the deal soon after I finish the tech, no way it could have even started teching it

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Parthenon, ToA, GLH +Colossus in coastal starts, HG, which I now only build after the Globe to avoid bumping in the happy cap, and some others.
I built the SoL once, I figured that an extra scientist would be worth it
That's strange though, since I didn't build Sistine before and now I do, so the culture from the specialists should really outweigh wonder culture... Maybe I still do get Legendary status but I don't pay attention to it anymore

What wonders do you build apart from the GLib and the Mids?

Again - weird, do you build Sistine in your games?

I've always tried to get the Sistine for the denial value, and the University of Sankore for the same reason. If I've a lull in production I'll try to snag the 3GD for SS denial as well but it's expensive and that's around the time I'm normally churning out tanks.

Now I think about it not many others: Great Wall, Oracle, Hanging Gardens if possible for the Engineer gpp and +1 pop, Angkor Wat for the Priests, Shwedagon Paya for the (Pyramids-like) early religion options. If on the space race then Cristo Redentor to be able to switch between Environmentalism and State Property as and when needed without the wait (especially if I'm relying on Standard Ethanol for my Oil).

I've never bothered with any of the Artist producing wonders unless I really need a late game, resource-grabbing border push, e.g. Broadway, Rock N Roll. A few times if I've no Aluminium and I've got the Internet to pick up techs I'll take a detour to Robotics to get the Space Elevator. This rarely happens as of all the resources Aluminium is the one I'm likely to have.

 

[Ungeziefer]

If I've a lull in production I'll try to snag the 3GD for SS denial as well but it's expensive and that's around the time I'm normally churning out tanks.

Now I think about it not many others: Great Wall, Oracle, Hanging Gardens if possible for the Engineer gpp and +1 pop, Angkor Wat for the Priests, Shwedagon Paya for the (Pyramids-like) early religion options. If on the space race then Cristo Redentor to be able to switch between Environmentalism and State Property as and when needed without the wait (especially if I'm relying on Standard Ethanol for my Oil).

I've never bothered with any of the Artist producing wonders unless I really need a late game, resource-grabbing border push, e.g. Broadway, Rock N Roll. A few times if I've no Aluminium and I've got the Internet to pick up techs I'll take a detour to Robotics to get the Space Elevator. This rarely happens as of all the resources Aluminium is the one I'm likely to have.

Lull in production? 3GD? Tanks? When do you have time for all of this ?
I even think that 3GD is actually detrimental since the time spent on building it for SS denial could be spent on SS parts, and the cost/benefit ratio is probably against you...
But well if it works in your games it's fine, I've just never thought about it before

Same for Space Elevator, on Inland Sea I think that I'm rarely close enough to the equator to build it, Robotics is a dend end tech on the SS techpath, it is super expensive and again the cost/benefit ratio might not be good

World Wonders are early game-only for me, but I might consider Cristo Redentor now that you've mentioned its usefulness...

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Lull in production? 3GD? Tanks? When do you have time for all of this ?

When I read this I actually laughed out loud. It's along the lines of Isabella's inexhaustible missionary hammers

I even think that 3GD is actually detrimental since the time spent on building it for SS denial could be spent on SS parts, and the cost/benefit ratio is probably against you...
But well if it works in your games it's fine, I've just never thought about it before

It's very rare but the times I have gone for it it's purely to stop a monster from gaining even more of a production bonus (the same reason I've founded Mining Inc when I only have a couple of metal resources).

Same for Space Elevator, on Inland Sea I think that I'm rarely close enough to the equator to build it, Robotics is a dend end tech on the SS techpath, it is super expensive and again the cost/benefit ratio might not be good

Again, it's very situational but it did get me a (very close Aluminium-less) SS win in one game.

 

[JustBen]

I stay away from wonders that don't produce scientists or engineers. Only the Oracle, Sistine's, and national wonders get passes [edit: forgot Cristo Redentor]. TGW is one I do still occasionally get, but it damages a GP economy so much I usually regret it. Hanging Gardens is my most situational wonder. It depends on a lot of things: how fast oracle/mids finished, how soon math was teched, how helpful an aqueduct is, if civil service got teched early, and of course stone/Ind. Barbarian pressure can screw up a build order too, especially if you skipped TGW to improve your economy.

The guide I linked above has a really slick approach to Globe Theatre that I highly recommend. Basically he observes that GT gains you very little before National Park because of the health cap. Specialists are so powerful in OCC that it's usually unwise to take the food hit. Thus you push Biology before Drama and build NP before GT. You often get to trade for it instead of wasting research turns this way too, and a later GT means fewer artist points. I would build GT early if I had room in my queue, but if you're not using its happiness then its GPP pollution is wasteful (to say nothing of the turns you defer building Research).

His timing for Sistine's is also quite intelligent. You self tech Literature for GLib but sit on your Aesthetics monopoly. As soon as you see an AI pick up Aes, you stop your current tech path and double back for Music and Sistine's. Sometimes this leads you to a typical Music race, but sometimes you can get a big jump on other econ techs by delaying your denial play. It also thins out those icky great artist points.

 

[MyOtherName]

Somebody mentioned skipping Sistine because they're not endangered by AI Cultural victories at Emperor. Frankly, that shocks me. Even with building Sistine for denial I'm often racing some clowns cultural victory. And I usually don't have enough military to go raze a town on the other side of the planet.

And conversely, I'm boggled when people consider an AI cultural win to be a big obstacle to an OCC space race. (edit: I meant to qualify with "on emperor" since I've played very few immortal OCC)


Maybe there's some subtle strategic difference that has a big effect on the prevalence of AI cultural attempts -- my games tend to be rather war-torn, and I am content to be in one or more fake wars for most of the game (even with a single warrior! ). How peaceful are your games?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I stay away from wonders that don't produce scientists or engineers. Only the Oracle, Sistine's, and national wonders get passes [edit: forgot Cristo Redentor].[...]

I've finally started a new game and have been following the anti-Prophet gpp advice, but I'm in a nightmare of a 5-neighbour 4-religion warring mess and had to Engineer rush the Shwedagon Paya. Despite running pure Scientists I have popped 2 Prophets. Typical . I really need to stop playing Pangea maps and give Alexfrog's Inland Sea recommendation a try.

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Edit:

And conversely, I'm boggled when people consider an AI cultural win to be a big obstacle to an OCC space race.

My view as well. As I've previously posted it's yet to happen.

[...]my games tend to be rather war-torn [...] How peaceful are your games?

(I know it's aimed at Ataxerxes but I'm going to respond to it as well.) Not very , although it's a bit different when I'm in the centre of it (see above). In one game I stirred up a world war in 1230 and kept it going 'til I launched. Most enjoyable game I've played.

 

[Ungeziefer]

His timing for Sistine's is also quite intelligent. You self tech Literature for GLib but sit on your Aesthetics monopoly. As soon as you see an AI pick up Aes, you stop your current tech path and double back for Music and Sistine's. Sometimes this leads you to a typical Music race, but sometimes you can get a big jump on other econ techs by delaying your denial play. It also thins out those icky great artist points.

That is exactly what I realized while eating breakfast this morning . I tend to build Sistine waaay too early and this completely messes up my GP pool, esp. since I build the Globe early too.
Speaking of which, I do prefer to grow beyond the health cap and trade my happy resources to the AI in exchange for their ones. If you build the Globe after the NP, do you stagnate at 9-10 pop? In other words how do you get your ? (Temples seem a waste of hammers, culture-slider a waste of commerce, spare resources are scarce for trading...)

How peaceful are your games?

It depends, if an AI gets dogpiled I join the party, and I try to join my neighbor in a war provided it won't annoy the other. I'm starting to try to stir up wars and it's working well at the moment .

By the way I tried to run scientists ASAP after the Mids and it has worked wonders, techs, buildings etc all came faster, so .

 

[Colonel Mustard]

And conversely, I'm boggled when people consider an AI cultural win to be a big obstacle to an OCC space race. (edit: I meant to qualify with "on emperor" since I've played very few immortal OCC)

I'm quoting this after your edit. Just finished a Monarch game (I don't know how much of a difference that makes) - I landed on AC two turns before Julius Caesar in 1990. Pacal had the most culture but all three of his cities were 100+ turns. I had the Sistine.

 

[Ungeziefer]

I had the Sistine.

Then I guess the Sistine does have a huge impact then. AI culture was threatening before I tried to build it for denial purposes, now it seems that beating the AI to space and avoiding having a SoD at your city gates is the most difficult

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Then I guess the Sistine does have a huge impact then. AI culture was threatening before I tried to build it for denial purposes, now it seems that beating the AI to space and avoiding having a SoD at your city gates is the most difficult

I was only DoWed once and that was due to joining a phony war. I had rifles and cannon - Charlemagne sent 10 Landsknechts, 3 knights and a catapult from the other side of the map. They died. I paid Julius to get rid of him for me.

It was very close with the SS. I picked up Robotics from the Internet and managed to build the Space Elevator in four turns (by workshopping my Scientist forest preserves), I wouldn't have beaten Julius without it. But researching Robotics = no time to get Genetics = waving at his SS from the launch pad; adding weight to your cost/benefit argument.

----
From Alexfrog's guide:

[...] Map Type:
As desired, but I like Inland Sea. Its a fun map, has good resources in an area within 6 spaces of your start, [...]

Balderdash. I started twelve Inland Sea games and in not one of them did I have Copper, Iron or Horse in my Legendary borders . Abandoned them all, pointless playing them. Back to Pangeas then [sighs].

 

[JustBen]

Speaking of which, I do prefer to grow beyond the health cap and trade my happy resources to the AI in exchange for their ones. If you build the Globe after the NP, do you stagnate at 9-10 pop? In other words how do you get your ? (Temples seem a waste of hammers, culture-slider a waste of commerce, spare resources are scarce for trading...)

Once in a while I do hammer out 1 temple. Sometimes it's resource starvation but usually it's because of calendar tech. I usually regret the build, but only when it's a calendar problem.

If you have a lot of health, or can trade for a lot of health, the GT does go up in value. In an ordinary game, my city might top out at 10-12 during the Bio push. With decent forest coverage, that's plenty to work all my bonus tiles and a few specialists, with a few middling tiles too. Adding an extra 4-5 population is good, but you put a big investment into getting those extra population online. The worst part is that since they all go onto those middling tiles too, they won't really return your investment in time to help with your Lib play. Making a run at Bio is a huge investment, and time you spend setting up GT is time you give the AI to force you to spend your Lib on SciM or PP.

I guess it goes back to the saying, "That which can wait must wait." I used to think GT can't wait, but now I know that it can. There are games where it should be built early, but they're rarer than I once thought. The harder I pushed for early CS and education, the more fat I trimmed from my builds.

 

[Ungeziefer]

From Alexfrog's guide:
Balderdash. I started twelve Inland Sea games and in not one of them did I have Copper, Iron or Horse in my Legendary borders . Abandoned them all, pointless playing them. Back to Pangeas then [sighs].

Really? In half of my games I have metals by the third ring (I play with Balanced resources), and event if I don't have any longbows are great defenders if that's what you have in mind.

If you have a lot of health, or can trade for a lot of health, the GT does go up in value. In an ordinary game, my city might top out at 10-12 during the Bio push. With decent forest coverage, that's plenty to work all my bonus tiles and a few specialists, with a few middling tiles too. Adding an extra 4-5 population is good, but you put a big investment into getting those extra population online. The worst part is that since they all go onto those middling tiles too, they won't really return your investment in time to help with your Lib play. Making a run at Bio is a huge investment, and time you spend setting up GT is time you give the AI to force you to spend your Lib on SciM or PP.

Again, I tend to disagree:
- The push to Bio starts with crappy techs such as MC, Construction, Engineering etc. Yes you can trade for them, but by the time I get to PP/Chemistry I am at max pop working only 2F+ tiles and working specialists, so growing your pop instead of working specialists works just fine before Lib
- Theater+GT can be chopped quickly, esp if you build it after NE, when your worker is still in the "forest area" after chopping the NE
- Thus Lib is not really delayed, no way the AI is close to Lib by the time I get there
- Building the GT after the NP is worse than building it before: production is no better, and you're better off not running specialists before Education and Astro than not running it after (i.e. building GT before and after Lib) because of the beaker bonus from Oxford, Uni and Obs.

If you build the GT after Lib you'll have to get your pop from ~10 to ~20, thus spending 20~30 turns not running specs at all to maximise growing. In comparison, I spend 15 turns before Lib not running specialists and none after, which is not a bad thing IMO

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Really? In half of my games I have metals by the third ring (I play with Balanced resources), and event if I don't have any longbows are great defenders if that's what you have in mind.

The first six I played with normal resources and second half with balanced, no difference (in fact in one of those the nearest metal was 10 tiles away).

Longbows are great defenders but crap offensive units, in OCC none of my units have CG - if the AI is at your door then they're also running around in your borders doing what the AI loves best: pillaging - all of my units are used for attacking.

Longbows lose their first strike against mounted units so Longbow vs Horse Archer is straight 50/50 odds - it's a lot of battles to get Formation; no Horse means no flank-attacking their catapults either. Longbows with Shock vs Macemen with Cover aren't particularly great odds either.

I'd be more than happy if anyone could refute the above

 

[Ungeziefer]

The first six I played with normal resources and second half with balanced, no difference (in fact in one of those the nearest metal was 10 tiles away).

Longbows are great defenders but crap offensive units, in OCC none of my units have CG - if the AI is at your door then they're also running around in your borders doing what the AI loves best: pillaging - all of my units are used for attacking.

Longbows lose their first strike against mounted units so Longbow vs Horse Archer is straight 50/50 odds - it's a lot of battles to get Formation; no Horse means no flank-attacking their catapults either. Longbows with Shock vs Macemen with Cover aren't particularly great odds either.

I'd be more than happy if anyone could refute the above

Oh I see, I misunderstood what you said before b/c when I get DoWed I usually defend in my city with LBs/Rifles, but if I understand correctly you tend to attack the enemy SoD b/c you have a bigger standing army (I try to stick with 1-2 warriors which I upgrade as the game goes )

In this case then yes you're screwed if you want to directly attack the enemy, you'd better fortify behind your city walls+castle (then CG/Drill is invaluable) and destroy their stack with trebs/cats if you really want to attack

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Weird, this almost never happens to me. By the time the AI settles near my borders my 3rd border pop happened long ago. They often settle in the "legendary ring", which my city rarely reaches now (no more wonderspam ).
The -2 penalty is just annoying and to be coped with, but in my games the AI usually asks for tribute (which I happily give) before DoWing, and if an AI goes to WHEOOHRN and can DoW me (Cautious or Pleased for some, Any for Cathy...) I'll just start pumping out units.

New game, see screenshot of me and Sury in 3520 BC, cracking BFC but I haven't even got my worker out yet (let alone any units) - back to main menu