Office of the Ambassadorship to Apolyton

[Donovan Zoi]

Welcome to the Ambassadorship to Apolyton!

Here you will find all correspondences with our ally both by email and chat log. If there is anything you would like me to discuss with Apolyton please let me know here.

In the future, I will edit this post to include updated information about our ally. Such things will include current government, number of troops, current tech research etc. Once again, please feel free to request of this office anything you would like to see in the first post.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Yesterday I got a chance to speak with Consul Trip not once but twice. While the first meeting was more of an introduction, our second chat got a bit more in depth. Also, I had to leave early during the first chat although President GBM was present and discussing at length a gold-for-tech research plan(more on that in a moment). I would be quite interested in the chatlog for that conversation, and I hope that CivGeneral logged the entire first chat per my request.

Here is the second chat:

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Chat segment #1

I used our discussion of a possible resource trade to bring up the situation of our land agreement. Apparently, Trip is of the impression that Poly will abandon Equilibrium so that we may settle our city on the tile due west of it. He actually seems surprised that we haven't commissioned a settler up that way yet.

I also got the skinny on the two Medieval Infantry, which were to guard their Silk colony. He countered by stating that the had a similar concern about our Swordsman being so close to the colony. I am willing to write the whole thing off as a misunderstanding for now.

[22:21] *DX_Zoi* Speaking of the Silks........
[22:22] *Trip* don't you have screenshots at your forum?
[22:23] *DX_Zoi* some, although I can't tell if one of cities was built on
Silsk....hold on
[22:23] *Trip* I know we have all the Dyes, but I thought you had some
Silks...
[22:24] *DX_Zoi* I think we may too...almost there
[22:26] *DX_Zoi* Nope, we have Furs and Incense
[22:26] *DX_Zoi* No Silks
[22:27] *Trip* hmmm
[22:27] *Trip* how long before you will?
[22:28] *DX_Zoi* Now here is the question.......
[22:28] *DX_Zoi* I believe that all the Silks reside near you colony
[22:28] *Trip* yes
[22:29] *DX_Zoi* Was there ever an official decision on how we were to
handle the Choke point situation?
[22:30] *DX_Zoi* Was anything ever ratified by Apolyton?
[22:30] *DX_Zoi* As of now, I believe we only have a gentleman's agreement,
correct?
[22:30] *Trip* we will be removing our current city, and you will build a
new one at the location directly W of our current one
[22:30] *Trip* I'm not sure if anything official has been decided or not
[22:31] *Trip* however, if you build there soon, then you still won't have
access to the silks
[22:31] *DX_Zoi* Are you speaking of Equilibrium? or PoV?
[22:31] *Trip* and I believe you only have one Galley in the lake
[22:31] *Trip* Equilibrium
[22:32] *DX_Zoi* Yes
[22:32] *DX_Zoi* Why remove the city instead of gifting it? Just curious
[22:33] * ZargonX|gaming has quit IRC (Quit: Outta here)
[22:33] *Trip* some people at Apolyton have some qualms about security
issues, so we're going to move the city (using a Settler, which helps us
build another city too) and then build Fortresses nearby
[22:35] *DX_Zoi* So, basically we would control the northern chokepoint and
you would control the southern?
[22:35] *Trip* correct
[22:35] *Trip* and each of our cities would be on our respective sections of
the continent
[22:36] *Trip* with your new city in the north being W of Equilibrium
[22:36] *DX_Zoi* I see
[22:36] * WhiteBandit has joined #ISDGFAMTALKS
[22:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +o WhiteBandit
[22:37] *Trip* how long before you would have a Settler ready to rebuild
that city, or a city for those silks?
[22:37] *DX_Zoi* Speaking of security concerns, some of our citizens are
curious about the two Medieval Infantry south of your colony. Is that just
a barb watch?
[22:37] *Trip* correct
[22:37] *Trip* and to watch for the GCA Galley
[22:37] *Trip* we don't want them landing units on our road between our
colony and Equilibrium... could be bad...
[22:38] *DX_Zoi* Very well, although our Swordsman is on the case.....they
are fortified there correct?
[22:38] *Trip* one is fortified on a hill, another is looking for barbs
[22:38] *Trip* people at Apolyton were equally interested in your elite
Swordsman heading for our colony
[22:39] *DX_Zoi* Same thing then. Never meant any harm.....

 

[Donovan Zoi]

And here is the conversation about the gold for tech agreement. While doing this will greatly enhance our tech acquisition(Poly estimates an 8-10 turn turnaround for tech research), the plan as stated will drastically cut into our gpt. I personally want to see the numbers we reach once we become a Republic.

This plan would also be used to assist CGN, as Poly will trade them the tech(for gold presumably). The idea is to get Gunpowder for CGN as soon as possible.

[22:01] *Trip* I continued talking with GBM about the tech deal
[22:01] *DX_Zoi* what does he think of it?
[22:01] *Trip* we basically agreed that CFC should start 40-turn research on
Monarchy this turn with a scientist in one city
[22:01] *Trip* in a few turns we will have a Harbor built, so we can set up
a GPT (from you guys) for Dyes (from us) per turn deal
[22:02] *DX_Zoi* why Monarchy? How does that get Gunpowder to CGN?
[22:02] *Trip* once that Harbor is built and once you guys are in Republic
[22:02] *Trip* DX_Zoi: it doesn't really affect Gunpowder at all really...

[22:02] *Trip* that's just another part of our tech arrangement
[22:02] *Trip* you guys will do 40 turn techs, gifting us your gold so we
can research faster
[22:02] *Trip* then once the tech is complete, we give it to you
[22:02] *Trip* Monarchy will be the first of those 40-turn techs
[22:04] *DX_Zoi* sounds like a plan...how does CGN play into this? Are they
gifting techs or gold at all?
[22:05] *Trip* nope
[22:05] *Trip* CGN will be independent of this
[22:05] *Trip* however, we will be sending them Invention when we are done
with it so they can begin Gunpowder
[22:06] *DX_Zoi* I am only wondering if we could research Monarchy faster
than 40 turns
[22:07] *DX_Zoi* Although that would cut into your gpt rom us, you would get
the tech faster
[22:07] *Trip* well, that's the thing
[22:07] *Trip* you just said it
[22:07] *Trip* it will slow down the IMPORTANT techs that we are doing
[22:07] *DX_Zoi* Once again, I would have to crunch some numbers once we
enter Republic
[22:07] *Trip* to do it in less than 40 turns will probably require at least
15 or 20 GPT
[22:07] *Trip* which is a huge dent
[22:08] *Trip* our main research effort is what we will be doing
[22:08] *Trip* what you guys do in 40 turns will just be "icing on the cake"
[22:09] *DX_Zoi* I can see that
[22:10] *Trip* it wouldn't be a problem
[22:10] *Trip* but researching it any faster than 40 turns actually takes a
sizable amount of cash
[22:10] *Trip* Monarchy is a pretty expensive tech, and that's just the
cheapest one
[22:10] *DX_Zoi* But still...why Monarchy? Is there a need for that
anymore? I guess its a nice fallback plan but......
[22:11] *Trip* what would you suggest instead?
[22:11] *Trip* yes, Monarchy isn't all that attractive, I admit, but it
allows us a government to go to, if, say GCA doesn't make peace, WW gets
bad, GWT attacks, etc.
[22:11] *Trip* and it also allows the building of the Hanging Gardens
[22:12] *Trip* not huge concerns, I agree, but there's not really anything
else
[22:12] *DX_Zoi* I would have to look at the tech tree
[22:12] *Trip* right now the tech tree is very linear
[22:13] *Trip* once we get Education it spreads out more, but that won't be
for a bit still
[22:13] *DX_Zoi* exactly
[22:13] *Trip* it'd probably be at least 20 turns
[22:13] *Trip* and by then you could be half done with Monarchy
[22:14] *DX_Zoi* so how fast can you pump out these techs then? one every
8-10 turns?
[22:14] *Trip* yes, about that
[22:14] *DX_Zoi* Have you determined what gpt you will need from us?
[22:15] *Trip* even if you do decide to change to another tech once we get
Education, you can at least start doing Monarchy now and change later...
won't hurt anything
[22:15] *Trip* DX_Zoi: ideally at least 35 GPT if you could provide it, or
30
[22:15] *Trip* even then we'd be providing the vast bulk of the gold
[22:15] *Trip* 80+ of our own every turn
[22:15] *DX_Zoi* true
[22:16] *DX_Zoi* that sounds more than fair
[22:16] *Trip* yes
[22:16] *Trip* so the more you can provide the better
[22:17] *Trip* I ran through some calculations earlier with some information
provided by GBM
[22:17] *Trip* I estimated that you would make ~39 GPT under Republic
[22:17] *Trip* that way you should be able to get us a 35 GPT deal and we
would provide you with Dyes
[22:17] *Trip* once you get to Republic and we finish our Harbor in a few
turns

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Other info I had gathered from the first chat:

1. Apolyton is currently researching Invention and will have it in 7-8 turns.

2. According to Trip, Poly has around 80 military units, as opposed to our 30-35.

I will post more as the information becomes available. I will also PM CivGeneral to see if he has a copy of the first chat.

 

[Cheetah]

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
[22:33] *Trip* some people at Apolyton have some qualms about security
issues, so we're going to move the city (using a Settler, which helps us
build another city too) and then build Fortresses nearby

2. According to Trip, Poly has around 80 military units, as opposed to our 30-35.
[/B]

Now I get some security qualms! They have 80 military units and they want a city and FORTRESSES east of our chokepoint-city?!

 

[Ankka]

Yes, they're acting a bit weird on some points IMO. Really weird. Odd.

But, mostly, it sounds fair enough to me.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

I don't like it that much ,Apolyton is more and more making us their sattelite.When we would use most of our GDp to invest in Apolyton tech research in combination with trade then we would be very dependant on Apolyton for our tech.In case of conflict we would be helpless.

Besides ,what is our guarantee that Apolyton doesn't use a unnoticable amount of it's GDP and our shared one to upgrade a number of units?

A big part of our problem is territory size ,we could be a very good equal partner of Apolyton if we would be allowed more space to expand to ,deffinatly in the BoP area.We can get more efficiancy from that land as our capital is closer to it.
We also lack settlers to fastly settle land ,so it would be better if we could get some of those Poly city's at our border with an agreement rather than to have to settle them ourselfs wich takes time.

Maybe people would think i'm to Paranoid about Apolyton ,but while they are talking with us on a most friendly tone ,their size compared to us and the possible threat they make is dangerous for us.We need more guarantations that this alliance wil last on an equal basis.

But while Apolyton may be stronger than us ,they are dwarfed by the superpowers GWT and CGN.In the end they need us if they want to survive against these country's in the long term.

But the war in the west is a very dangerous thing.If one of the 2 superpowers ,GWT or CGN would ever get supremacy on their continent then they are ready to be masters of the world.A devided west is crucial for Poly and CFC.But it's also more important for Fanatikou to have stronger diplomatic power with this country's than Apolyton.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Originally posted by Cheetah



Now I get some security qualms! They have 80 military units and they want a city and FORTRESSES east of our chokepoint-city?!

They have concerns just like we do, Cheetah. But unfortunately the terms of our alliance force us to show our hand regarding troop size. Knowing their amount of troops is a good thing, while us having to disclose our troop size puts us at a disadvantage.

My job as ambassador will be to keep our relationship as cordial as possible while we figure out how we are going to beef up our number of troops and cities. And at this time there is need for improvement everywhere, with limited resources to accomplish any set goals.

This is why I would recommend an immediate settlement initiative while we are on good terms. More cities will lead to more options. I would then recommend that we devote our high-production cities exclusively to Riders.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
I don't like it that much ,Apolyton is more and more making us their sattelite.When we would use most of our GDp to invest in Apolyton tech research in combination with trade then we would be very dependant on Apolyton for our tech.In case of conflict we would be helpless.

Besides ,what is our guarantee that Apolyton doesn't use a unnoticable amount of it's GDP and our shared one to upgrade a number of units?

DoF, you may have no idea how much you and I agree on this situation. I have the exact same concerns as you do. Keep in mind that Apolyton will most likely receive gold or tech from CGN for their research as well. They also claimed that they will need our gpt as they will researching at a loss to get the techs faster.

However, I am unsure of what else we can do here so I am open to suggestions. We won't really know until we see our numbers coming out of Republic.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders A big part of our problem is territory size ,we could be a very good equal partner of Apolyton if we would be allowed more space to expand to ,deffinatly in the BoP area.We can get more efficiancy from that land as our capital is closer to it.
We also lack settlers to fastly settle land ,so it would be better if we could get some of those Poly city's at our border with an agreement rather than to have to settle them ourselfs wich takes time.

Maybe people would think i'm to Paranoid about Apolyton ,but while they are talking with us on a most friendly tone ,their size compared to us and the possible threat they make is dangerous for us.We need more guarantations that this alliance wil last on an equal basis.[/B]

That is never going to happen. Bringing this up will only harm relations, which will detract from any expansion plans. We should actually be fortunate that they are granting us the land west of the chokepoints because we are certainly in no position to claim it all yet.

I think that one thing we need to realize is that much of our current situation is of our own doing. Until recently, we had gone through most of the game with only two workers and we are an Industrious civ! Because of this, I think we can continue to see Apolyton bargain from a position of strength. We just need to stay cordial so that we can work to claim what has already been granted to us.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders But while Apolyton may be stronger than us ,they are dwarfed by the superpowers GWT and CGN.In the end they need us if they want to survive against these country's in the long term.

But the war in the west is a very dangerous thing.If one of the 2 superpowers ,GWT or CGN would ever get supremacy on their continent then they are ready to be masters of the world.A devided west is crucial for Poly and CFC.But it's also more important for Fanatikou to have stronger diplomatic power with this country's than Apolyton. [/B]

You are absolutely correct, and should our relations sour I will make this very clear to our allies. The main question is:

What are we more afraid of? If the tables turn to one side in the west, the game is all but over. But if our relations sour, with Apolyton, we are over.

That said, we need to check our demands until we can at least bargain from a position of equality. And that is quite some time away.



Well, we have alot of work to do, gentlemen. I suggest we get right to it.

 

[Cheetah]

Alright. We'll settle for the land we have now.

1. We must build workers to develop our land.
2. We must build settlers to settle our land.
3. We must build riders to protect our land.

When this is accomplished, we could start making stronger demands...

 

[Zarn]

I don't like what Poly is doing, but we can't do anything about t now. Actually, if we bring it up, it may end up with them just claiming more territory or worse.

 

[Ankka]

I think we should be ok with the land we get and build it good first, then we can see what to do...

 

[Yndy]

We need to ask Poly to provide an F1 view of their economy so that we can get an idea of their scientific expenses. I think 30-35 gpt would be enough for them to research at full speed and pay us the tech. However they would not invest more than another 50 gpt into research.

I understand that they spend 80gpt to maintain all those units but we should not be paying for that. We could also tell them that we need some money to rush-build some marketplaces and thus can only pay them 20 gpt in the first 20 turns. We would then pay them 35 gpt.

Tell them that this is of course for the mutual benefit, us having more marketplaces = more funding to Poly.

 

[Hygro]

Great thinking Yndy

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I like that idea as well, Yndy. I am planning on having a very constructive chat with Apolyton once we reach Republic, but I think that we may want to mention this aspect to them now.

Of course, we really need to determine what is highest on the priority list. If we throw Marketplaces in with our absolute need of Workers, Settlers and Riders, the we most likely won't know where to start.

I would like to have us start with a wave of workers from almost all of our cities, along with Settlers from our largest ones. Then as we built new cities, we could switch our highest production core cities to Riders or Markets depending on happiness and a few other factors. Because of its Flood Plains, Yun Qiuling should build only Workers and Settlers and should eventually be able to handle this task almost single-handedly once we build up our empire.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Ankka]

I suport what Yndy said.

 

[Yndy]

Agree DZ, we should only tell Poly we need cash for marketplaces and delay the actual building of them for a while. They would be in the queue someplace after workers, settlers and some riders.

 

[Zarn]

Yndy, that was a great proposal. I agree that a little deception (that Apolyton probally would not catch) is fine, because they haven't been completely honsest with us.

 

[croxis]

Poly chat this friday at 10 GMT. DO NOT PLAY THE SAVE UNTIL WE CHAT WITH POLY. They want to know how much gpt we can give them. I will post this in the turn thread as well.