offworld trade and resources

[davidlallen]

Perhaps we should highlight the civs own URU in a different colour and/or put a star or your civ logo next to it when the popup appears.

Good idea. For Corrino, I will put "(Recommended)" after Sardaukar, and similar for Ix.

I still think we should be trying to make their URs a bit more interesting than just a health and happy (albeit super-powered ones). There is some good canon stuff there that we are not drawing upon. If we do have to invent some then some kind of root or medicinal herb would be more appropriate than Slig.

I agree a root or medicinal herb would be better, but I could not find one. Any suggestion?

I agree all the health/happy UR's are a little boring now. Ahriman had a suggestion a few posts back, but it did not "grab" me. I am not sure what to suggest.

 

[Ahriman]

Pleniscenta

I vote we don't use this term... maybe its my inner 4-year-old but it evokes too many other words.

I am generally indifferent to forcing Sardaukar cooperation or not. In general forcing = bad... but when its a true no-brainer, its harmless.

I like the idea of trying to move away from just health/happy resources.
The Offworld Labor was a great example of that.
I think we should think about these as *contracts*, that don't necessarily have to provide trade goods.

For example:
Another idea for Slig meat. Tleilaxu-only unique resource, the Slig Meat contract is a building that gives +3 trade routes in the city it is in, and +50% foreign trade route yield. Or something similar (balance appropriately). Or a gold bonus in the city it is in. I prefer trade bonus, since it forces the Tleilaxu to interact with others - to have at least one friend that has open borders with them. Plus I like the flavor of Tleilaxu deigning to interact with other races in order to profit by serving them (metaphotical) offal.
It doesn't need to be a health-resource.

Most importantly, we want to limit total health/happy availability. Health/happy are weird in that their value is discontinuous; once you satisfy the constraint in a city, the marginal value of getting more of it falls to zero. That means that in aggregate it needs to be *hard* to satisfy the constraint, in order to make the marginal contributions of resources more valuable. The more happiness/health luxury goods in the mod (and the more copies of these there are floating around), the easier it is to satisfy constraints, and so the value of these falls dramatically.

I could similarly imagine some Ecazi plants that have trade/gold bonuses, rather than necessarily health/happy.

 

[Deliverator]

A quick round up of the Offworld Goods/Unique Resources we have currently, with comments. I think I've got them all...

Palace Resources

Fremen Water Debt - from Fremen Palace
Allows Crysknife Fighter, Naib's Chosen, Fedaykin units
+1 happy with Temple of the Maker
Comment: Seems odd that this doesn't enable Razzia Raiders, but does Naib's Chosen and Fedaykin.

Sisterhood Covenant - from Bene Gesserit Palace
Allows Reverend Mother unit

Landing Stage Resources - Controlled by

Ixian Weaponry
Allows Mech units - controlled by Ix

Sardaukar Cooperation
Allows Sardaukar Legionary - controlled by Corrino
Comment: Should remove the bonus requirement from Noukker and make it unique to Corrino.

Semuta
+2 happy, +1 happy with CHOAM Directorate - controlled by Ecaz

Slig
+2 health, +1 happy with Great Banqueting Hall - controlled by Ecaz (yes, this is weird and high on the list to change...)

Landing Stage Resources - Other

Caladanian Wine
+1 happy, +1 happy with Great Banqueting Hall

Pundi Rice
+1 health
Comment: Why did the Atreides end up with nothing?

Ginaz School Training
Allows Ginaz Swordmaster unit, Ginaz Training I and II promotions
Comment: I reckon we scrap the unit, it's cleaner.

Soostone
+1 happy, +1 happy with CHOAM Directorate

Opafire
+ 1 happy, +1 happy with CHOAM Directorate
Comment: These two are identical = boring.

Sapho Juice
Strengthens Mentat Abilities

Labor Contract
+25% Worker Speed

My number one gripe is that I still really don't like the fact that civs have freedom to not pick their own unique resource.

The unique resource was meant to be a way to add flavour to civs. I think the current first-refusal mechanism is too weak to do this, and the original concept has got a bit lost in the current implementation. The fact that I can pick up some other bonus resource knowing that my own controlled UR is safe from others picking it just feels wrong to me. I think we have lost flavour by allowing this. I would almost rather go back to the original idea of simply having buildings that provide 3 units of your unique resource become available at Offworld Trade. The only advantage of the pop-up pick system, in my view, is that it allows the URs of civs not in the game to be selected. The pop-up picker shouldn't undermine the whole idea of civ-specific resources that ought to be adding flavour to the civs.

I would like to change things like this:
1. If a Civ controls one or more unique resources then their first Landing Stage will yield their UR (or offers a choice if they have more than one).
2. After that the second Landing Stage can be used to pick whatever you like as present.

As now the URs of Civs not in the game, will be available for selection.

Semuta Concept

I also have got the necessary SDK work for a new Semuta implementation done for Ecaz. I've created the ability for Buildings to get commerce types based on the number of global instances of a given building. This is broadly similar to the way Religion Shrines or Corporation HQs collect gold based on the number of temples/branches respectively.

The design I'm thinking of is roughly:

Semuta Supplier - provides +1 gold per Semuta Den globally - provides 3 units Semuta
Semuta Den - requires Semuta, +2 happy, -1 gold, National Limit perhaps 5 or 6, possibly -10% hammers too?

So Semuta Supplier takes the place of the Semuta Contract in effect. There are various options for balancing or limiting this if needs be.

I'm also interested in possibly making the establishment of Semuta Dens an espionage mission. Ecaz could have a Semuta Dealer unit, that founds Semuta Dens in a similar way to missionaries or corporate execs spreading religions/corporations. You can also have some units be capable of busting Semuta Dens and removing the building from cities. Or more simply have a chance of the Den being discover based on the espionage output of the city. For an initial version, it would be simpler just to let anyone with Semuta build them and then try to balance the cost/benefit.

Feedback welcome...

I also quite like Ecaz's second UR being Krimskell Fibre which enables a Strangler Vine promotion, probably anti-melee/first strike chances fits.

KRIMSKELL FIBER or KRIMSKELL ROPE: the "claw fiber" woven from strands of the hufuf vine of Ecaz. Knots tied in krimskell will claw tighter and tighter to preset limits when the knot-lines are pulled. (For a more detailed study, see Holjance Vohnbrook's "The Strangler Vines of Ecaz.")

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I would like some uses for Offworld Goods that feel more special/interesting so we can replace some of the health/happy ones. Resources can already be prerequisites for Buildings, Units and Promotions and now that I'm into the SDK, it would be pretty easy to make them prereqs for Improvements too if we have a good idea. If people have new ideas for offworld goods/unique resources it would be good to hear them. Even if you are uncertain whether it can be implemented there may be a way...

 

[Ahriman]

Comment: Seems odd that this doesn't enable Razzia Raiders, but does Naib's Chosen and Fedaykin.

Perhaps we should add Raiders, but remove Fedaykin, so Fedaykin remain a real Fremen UU like Noukkers.

Allows Reverend Mother unit

See other discussions. I think this should allow only the spy unit, and maybe the missionaria Protectiva building that I've been arguing for for ages. Requires faith tech, gives +2 espionage points, gives +1 happy per non-state religion (allows BG to be religious manipulators, using multiple religions at once or choosing not to adopt a state religion for diplomacy purposes).
Actually that gives me an even better idea; if we added this, we could block BG from adopting a state religion at all! So they can get all the benefits of the religions, but never adopt one, and so even the AI BG stays on reasonable diplomatic terms with everyone.
That seems very much in flavor "we live only to serve".
Like FFH agnostic trait. Religion is a tool for them, not something they actually believe in.

Comment: Should remove the bonus requirement from Noukker and make it unique to Corrino.

I think I did effectively make it unique to Corrino by blocking access to the Noukker from all other civs.
But still left the resource requirement.
The only gameplay difference from leaving it is that you lose access if you lose the city that has the contract.

Comment: I reckon we scrap the unit, it's cleaner.

Agreed.

Comment: These two are identical = boring.

I don't think its terrible to have two identical ones, they're both just generic trade goods that you want to get more versions of. Getting both is still twice as good as only having one. Similar effects are also easier to balance.

1. If a Civ controls one or more unique resources then their first Landing Stage will yield their UR

This seems fine to me.
The faction-only resources are designed to be superior, so there's no real strategic loss from being unable to choose a second one.

Semuta Supplier - provides +1 gold per Semuta Den globally - provides 3 units Semuta

I assume this is a world wonder?
We'd need to remove it from the trade good list, and then reduce Ecazi landing stages back down to 2.

Semuta Den - requires Semuta, +2 happy, -1 gold, National Limit perhaps 5 or 6, possibly -10% hammers too?

With the hammer penalty it would probably never be worth building.

Ecaz could have a Semuta Dealer unit, that founds Semuta Dens in a similar way to missionaries or corporate execs spreading religions/corporations.

Hmm, maybe. Would it be worth using if all it gives is 1 gold? Maybe is the dealer is not consumed in the process (but is returned to capital like a spy).

I also quite like Ecaz's second UR being Krimskell Fibre which enables a Strangler Vine promotion, probably anti-melee/first strike chances fits.

From the description I don't really see how this would have military value. How do you get a knot around someone who is trying to kill you with a sword?
It seems more like a shigawire type of thing, for restraining prisoners.

 

[Pickly]

I would like to change things like this:
1. If a Civ controls one or more unique resources then their first Landing Stage will yield their UR (or offers a choice if they have more than one).
2. After that the second Landing Stage can be used to pick whatever you like as present.

How about providing the civilization specific offworld resources through a separate, unique building? In the current system, the unique resources add flavor, but also remove options to potentially gain useful "all civilization" resources that may fit better with a playstyle. (with Ecaz especially, having two resources, they would get frozen out of stuff like Ginaz training that could easily be quite useful with certain playing styles.)

(The way I imagine this working is that each civilization has the usual 2 landing stages, and the unique resources ones get something like "Ecaz Slig landing stage" that supplies the unique resources.)

(Of course, as someone who isn't a main designer, these concerns might not be an issue overall.)

 

[Jester Fool]

Comment: Why did the Atreides end up with nothing?

Ginaz School Training
Allows Ginaz Swordmaster unit, Ginaz Training I and II promotions
Comment: I reckon we scrap the unit, it's cleaner.

How about solve two birds with one stone. Let me explain. Scrap the unique unit, but still keep Ginaz School Training as an offworld contract which would enable Ginaz Training promotions for melee fighter units. As I am sure you remember from the prequel books, Duncan Idaho actually trained on Ginaz and became a Ginaz Swordmaster. IMO, Ginaz School Training would be perfect for House Atreides as their unique offworld contract.

I would like to change things like this:
1. If a Civ controls one or more unique resources then their first Landing Stage will yield their UR (or offers a choice if they have more than one).
2. After that the second Landing Stage can be used to pick whatever you like as present.

As now the URs of Civs not in the game, will be available for selection.

I agree with your assessment. The specific House a player chooses to play should determine the main offworld trade contract (or contracts) available.

The design I'm thinking of

Interesting idea. My take:
Semuta Supply - provides 3 units of Semuta which enables 'establish Semuta Den' espionage mission and Semuta Dealer espionage unit; Ecaz unique offworld contract.
Semuta Dealer - Ecaz espionage unit; requires access to Semuta.
'Establish Semuta Den' espionage mission - requires access to Semuta; form Semuta Den in foreign city.
Semuta Den - provides Semuta resource holders with +1 gold per city globally; city with Semuta Den receives +2 happiness, -1 gold AND -10% hammers (Drug addicts are not at full potential, but are quite happy). Income from spice is not limited so why would drug profits be?
IMO, once a Semuta Den is formed in a city, it should be removable based on a % chance directly related to that city's espionage points, checked each turn. Since House Atreides doesn't have spies, this procedure would probably be the most balanced without adding any new units.

 

[Ahriman]

How about providing the civilization specific offworld resources through a separate, unique building?

I think perhaps I don't quite see what you're suggesting.
We want most factions to only be able to get 2 resources, their unique one and one other.

So I don't see a functional difference between:
a) Each faction can build 2 landing stages, but the first automatically gives a faction's unique resource
b) Each faction can build a specific unique building which gives their resource, and 1 landing stage.

Ecaz are different in that they are a trade-themed faction, so we want them to be able to get 3 resources relative to 2 for other factions.

Scrap the unique unit, but still keep Ginaz School Training as an offworld contract which would enable Ginaz Training promotions for melee fighter units

This is what he means by remove the unit.

Semuta Den - provides Semuta resource holders with +1 gold per city globally; city with Semuta Den receives +2 happiness, -1 gold AND -10% hammers

I don't understand what you mean here. "Provides Semuta resource holders +1 per city globally"?

Deliverator's design seems cleaner to me in terms of the +1 gold per semuta den coming directly from the Semuta supply source building.

I think we want the Den to be something that is a slightly positive structure for whoever builds one, and then very positive for the Ecaz player who holds the supply.

Otherwise there is no point in building one, in which case there is no point in Semuta being a trade good. And there's no point in it being a trade good, then why does the Supply give 3 copies?

And if the Den gives a hammer penalty and gold penalty, then it isn't worth constructing.

IMO, once a Semuta Den is formed in a city, it should be removable based on a % chance directly related to that city's espionage points, checked each turn.

If its on average a small net benefit, then no need for it to be removed.

We need to think about how this is going to be used strategically. My main interpretation is that Ecaz gets 3 copies of the good, they trade 2 away to their friends, and then the Ecaz player and their friends build Dens to keep their populations happy, which also provides gold for the Ecazi player.

* * *
I like the overall Britain/Opium/China flavor of this mechanic.

 

[Pickly]

I think perhaps I don't quite see what you're suggesting.
We want most factions to only be able to get 2 resources, their unique one and one other.

So I don't see a functional difference between:
a) Each faction can build 2 landing stages, but the first automatically gives a faction's unique resource
b) Each faction can build a specific unique building which gives their resource, and 1 landing stage.

Ecaz are different in that they are a trade-themed faction, so we want them to be able to get 3 resources relative to 2 for other factions.

The idea was that the factions get their unique resource from a different building, plus 2 others. This way they wouldn't get frozen out of other useful resources that other factions without offworld stuff could get.

 

[Ahriman]

The idea was that the factions get their unique resource from a different building, plus 2 others. This way they wouldn't get frozen out of other useful resources that other factions without offworld stuff could get.

There aren't enough resources for every faction to be getting 3.

And we don't want it to be too easy to get too many resources. If you can get 3 happiness resources once you hit offworld trade, and trade those for 1-2 more, then happiness will not be a binding constraint for the entire game.

The more happy/health resources there are out there, the less valuable any of them actually are, because the easier it is to satisfy the constraints (and the resources have no value once the constraints are satisfied).

I still think we need to rework health at some point, get rid of all the old bonuses left over from "granary" and "grocer" and approach health in a more sensible way.

 

[Jester Fool]

This is what he means by remove the unit.

Ok. Any thoughts on 'Ginaz School Training' being House Atreides unique offworld contract? That was really my main point.

I don't understand what you mean here. "Provides Semuta resource holders +1 per city globally"?

There should have been 'gold' after '+1'. I was taking into account that there are 3 copies of Semuta, so up to 3 civs could possibly be benefiting from the gold bonus. I admit I didn't do a good job of clearly stating that.

I think we want the Den to be something that is a slightly positive structure for whoever builds one, and then very positive for the Ecaz player who holds the supply.

Otherwise there is no point in building one, in which case there is no point in Semuta being a trade good. And there's no point in it being a trade good, then why does the Supply give 3 copies?

My idea was really geared more towards espionage. The Semuta Den would not be constructed, but 'inflicted' upon an enemy city by a successful espionage mission. That is why there would be a hammer and gold penalty. Think of it as a better 'steal treasury' espionage mission. Your Den idea sounds interesting but I also like Deliverator's idea to involve espionage somehow. Just my two cents.

 

[Jester Fool]

I think this should allow only the spy unit, and maybe the missionaria Protectiva building that I've been arguing for for ages. Requires faith tech, gives +2 espionage points, gives +1 happy per non-state religion (allows BG to be religious manipulators, using multiple religions at once or choosing not to adopt a state religion for diplomacy purposes).
Actually that gives me an even better idea; if we added this, we could block BG from adopting a state religion at all! So they can get all the benefits of the religions, but never adopt one, and so even the AI BG stays on reasonable diplomatic terms with everyone.
That seems very much in flavor "we live only to serve".

If you are taking a vote, count me in favor of your idea. The BG currently do not have a unique building and IMO would benefit from having one.

 

[Ahriman]

Any thoughts on 'Ginaz School Training' being House Atreides unique offworld contract? That was really my main point.

Oh. No, Atreides should be either Caladaanian Wine or Pundi rice, which are both native to Caladaan.
Ginaz school trains people from all kinds of places, not just Atreides. One of the prequel books deals with issues arising from the training of Duncan Idaho and some guys from Houses Ecaz and Moritani.

There should have been 'gold' after '+1'. I was taking into account that there are 3 copies of Semuta, so up to 3 civs could possibly be benefiting from the gold bonus. I admit I didn't do a good job of clearly stating that.

I still don't understand. Where does the gold come from? What is the mechanism you have in mind?
I like Deliverator's concept that the gold bonus comes from the "Semuta Supply" building/trade contract.
You can't (easily) give a player a gold bonus just from holding a copy of a resource.

The Semuta Den would not be constructed, but 'inflicted' upon an enemy city by a successful espionage mission

I can see some appeal from the espionage method, but I think it is likely to be very hard to get the AI effectively spread the building using espionage. They're not very good at espionage.
I also kinda dislike espionage missions that give your opponents happiness bonuses.

I think I personally prefer the design where the dens are worth building in their own right.

Oh! And that reminds me, the Missionaria Protectiva building would be buildable by anyone, IF but require the Sisterhood Convenant resource. So the resource does more than just allow a Unit trainer.

Another thought; free-palace supplied resources like Sisterhood Convenant and Fremen Water Debt probably mean that we should reduce the number of landing stages for those factions, unless the resources are really weak.

 

[Jester Fool]

Oh. No, Atreides should be either Caladaanian Wine or Pundi rice, which are both native to Caladaan.
Ginaz school trains people from all kinds of places, not just Atreides. One of the prequel books deals with issues arising from the training of Duncan Idaho and some guys from Houses Ecaz and Moritani.

Ok. I can't argue with your logic. When I play House Atreides though, I NEVER get the Caladaanian Wine or Pundi Rice contracts since they are so bland and weak. By the time I can build landing stages, both happiness and health are not big concerns.

I can see some appeal from the espionage method, but I think it is likely to be very hard to get the AI effectively spread the building using espionage. They're not very good at espionage.

I think I personally prefer the design where the dens are worth building in their own right.

If the AI is not very good at espionage, as you are saying, then the espionage method is DOA. Making the dens worth building seems like the next best option IMO.

Another thought; free-palace supplied resources like Sisterhood Convenant and Fremen Water Debt probably mean that we should reduce the number of landing stages for those factions, unless the resources are really weak.

That would make sense. They already get the advantage of early access to their UR, both of which are pretty good.

 

[Deliverator]

For the Semuta, I've gone for the simple setup:

Semuta Supplier (Contract): +1 per City with Semuta Den globally, provides 3 Semuta, Controlled by Ecaz
Semuta Den: +2 happy, -1 gold, Cost 60, requires Semuta (I've left it without any National Limit so we'll set how that plays)

If you see the screenshot attached, I've even got the pedia to display the right text and link through to Semuta Den.

I've also made quite a lot of building buttons today, since the amount of duplicated art was getting a bit ridiculous. Having unique building buttons is much more important than having unique 3D art IMO.

The ideas for the Bene Gesserit sound good. I like the idea of having a Missionaria Protectiva building

Importing the Agnostic trait is probably not too hard.

I'm not sure how to have a building give +1 happy per non-state religion - I know that the Free Religion civic does that in vanilla so it is probably not too difficult to clone that functionality to a building.

I still think we need to rework health at some point, get rid of all the old bonuses left over from "granary" and "grocer" and approach health in a more sensible way.

I'd agree with this. Health is a bit of a jumble.

 

[Pickly]

There aren't enough resources for every faction to be getting 3.

And we don't want it to be too easy to get too many resources. If you can get 3 happiness resources once you hit offworld trade, and trade those for 1-2 more, then happiness will not be a binding constraint for the entire game.

The more happy/health resources there are out there, the less valuable any of them actually are, because the easier it is to satisfy the constraints (and the resources have no value once the constraints are satisfied).

I still think we need to rework health at some point, get rid of all the old bonuses left over from "granary" and "grocer" and approach health in a more sensible way.

I think you're misunderstanding what the suggestion involves. to make things more clear:


At the moment, there are 9-11 or so offworld resources (I don't remember exactly how many.) Some of these resources (Ginaz, Wine, Sappho, rice, etc.) are available to everyone. Ecaz, Corrino, and Ix also have offworld resource, other houses do not.

The idea was that these three houses get access to their resources through separate buildings. Otherwise, they would be limited in their potential access to the "available to all" resources, while other civilizations (Tleilax, Fremen, etc.), would have better access to these resources. (Stuff like Ginaz and Sappho is pretty powerful and could conceivably fit better with some playstyles than the faction specific offworld resources.)

If you are adjusting offworld resources such that every faction has their one unique resource that they must get, plus one that anyone can use, the reasons for this suggestion go away. Otherwise, it seems worthwhile to divide resources in this way.



The Semuta idea sounds fun, it will be interesting ot see it in game.

 

[Ahriman]

Ecaz, Corrino, and Ix also have offworld resource, other houses do not.

Fremen and Bene Gesserit have unique resources, and Slig Meat and Pundi Rice (or Caladaanian wine) can easily be made into faction-specific resources. Harkonnen don't really need one.

Otherwise, they would be limited in their potential access to the "available to all" resources

This is a deliberate design goal. The faction specific goods are, in general, superior. So if you get one of those, you *should* only be able to get one other good.

 

[Pickly]

The original post that I was responding to was the idea that players would be forced to use their offworld resources, rather than simply having the option. For some uses, these resources are superior, but they are only for particular situations, which causes a theoretical advantage to actually be a disadvantage. (As mentioned earlier, if every faction has their own required special resource, the issue goes away, but if only some factions do, it's problematic.)

 

[Ahriman]

The original post that I was responding to was the idea that players would be forced to use their offworld resources, rather than simply having the option.

I have no problem with forcing players to use their offworld resource. Some factions homeworlds just aren't as useful in providing trade goods. For example Caladaan isn't a rich world, so I have no problem with forcing Atreides to take a potentially weaker resource.

 

[Pickly]

The issue wasn't with forcing resources on its own, it was with some factions having forced resources but not others.

 

[Ahriman]

The issue wasn't with forcing resources on its own, it was with some factions having forced resources but not others.

I still don't really see this as a problem. We should try to balance at a faction level, not a mechanic level.

I agree though that some of the obvious bonuses (Slig, Caladaanian wine) should be faction-tied.

But I see no reason for Harkonnen to be tied to a particular resource. Offworld labor is the only one that would make sense for them, but that is the most useless to them, because of their slave mechanic.