offworld trade and resources

[Deliverator]

Thinking about this, I've changed my mind from post 36. I agree that if a civ is in the game, other players *cannot* contract that resource.

Some shorthand:
UR - Unique Resource e.g. Caladanian Wind, Slig, Sardaukar Coop
URU - Unique Resource Unit e.g. Mentat, Sardaukar, Ginaz Swordmaster

To give the Space Port a purpose if all civs are in the game, and we have the Landing Stage (or replacement) providing the URs, I see two options:

1) As david suggests, we have a list of other imported bonuses that are not URs for civs. The Appendix has several other planets/items we could use for ideas such as Richese, the alternative-to-Ix machine makers, or Chusuk "the so-called 'Music Planet' noted for the quality of its musical instruments." These can have a mixture of benefits, some enabling units, some happy, etc.

2) We could expand the URs so that each civ has two, one strategic (i.e. enabling a URU) and one that gives some other benefit. The non-strategic ones could then be available for contracts (this is fudging the uniqueness I know).

You could do both of these I suppose, but that might be too much. I think option (1) is probably better.

 

[keldath]

mmm how about this- kind of a mix:

1 imported Resource - divided to 3 effects:

1. UR - Unique Resource e.g. Caladanian Wind, Slig, Sardaukar Coop

2. URU - Unique Resource Unit e.g. Mentat, Sardaukar, Ginaz Swordmaster

3. urb - unique resource building - a resource that allows the construction of a certain building that gives a good advantage - like a special power promotion, or something like this.

use the unique bonus for each civ - each civ have a unique building that imports a resourse
their function - some get - urb, some get utu's.
this can enable more variation between civs, they wont all give units to the civs that can trade with them - some will allow to share their uniqie special buildings with the imported resource preqeq.

and in addition,
each can have a contract to one more res,that will allow access to another one of the imported good form the already existing urs of each civ - so - if theres a civ that does not play - you still can contract its res, or if all civs in play..so you just get access to another one of these resources.
this is a less prefered option - i rathar just have that the contract enables abonus that increase health/commernce/health.

i will build each civ something like this for patch 1.3.9 - later on you guys can change it according to the way we decide.


***
humm.....
maybe we can split - the unique imported bonus allows units

and the contracts allow unique buildings ?

 

[Ahriman]

This sounds interesting.

So the buildings all provide a UR. The resource is either:
a) A happiness or health resource - possibly superior to basic resources. So, slig meat could give +1 health, +1 happy for eg.
b) A strategic resource that allows construction of a particular URU. So the Sardaukar Cooperation resource could allow construction of the Saradaukar I and Sardaukar II units (one is later game and higher strength) that are available to all factions but require this resource, and the Imperial Sardaukar I and Imperial Saudarkar II units are UUs that replace these two available only to the imperium civ, and are even better.
Similarly, the Thinking machines could be a strategic resource required for the construction of the Cymek unit (available to all civs), and Ix faction could also have an Ixian Battlemech which was a UU replacement for the Cymek.
c) A strategic resource that is required for construction of a particular URB. So a Spacer Guild Cooperation resource might allow construction of a Heighliner port building, which gives +2 trade routes and +40% trade route income.

These could even double up, so thinking machines could be required for both the CyMek unit AND a Supercomputer UB that increased beaker output.

 

[keldath]

yeah you got my drift.

ok for now ive made that the missionaria protactiva allows a world wonder - 1 per civ - 5 world wide - it gives a new unique promotion -
the name: temple of the reverend mother -
the promotion - bless of the mother - gives 45 enemy heal rate + 1 vision to all units built in city.

civs that will trade with bene gesserit this resource - will get access to this building - 5 world wide - cause the trade with civs can change over time .

this building is on early tech - around mid game it will be obseleted - and ill made a second same function building that gives the same effect (perhaps a bit bit stronger) - why -
so tradeing with the bene gesserit this resource wont be needed just once - but later on it will allow more building types - so the resource wont loose its effect over time,
how about 3 buildings allowed through time by this imported?

its goes well with what you suggested ahiram - 3 levels of units through the tech tree - so the imported bonus - wont loose its effect after the first unit gets obseleted huh?

im starting to really like what we are making here - it will create a highly dynamic trade system and diversity between civs right?


***
in order to give more meaning to the imported goods - either from the ub's or either from the contract later we will use,

we should give them more powerfull meaning - besides their buildings and units:
how about we lower the output of health and happiness from bonuses found on the maps and we increase the output of the imported ones?

 

[Ahriman]

ok for now ive made that the missionaria protactiva allows a world wonder - 1 per civ - 5 world wide - it gives a new unique promotion -
the name: temple of the reverend mother -
the promotion - bless of the mother - gives 45 enemy heal rate + 1 vision to all units built in city.

Missionaria Protectiva seems weird as a strategic resource - we already have this as a civic.

Healing rate and vision seem wrong too for the bene gesserit. These aren't clerics from a fantasy mod.

How about something that mimics how many of the top influential people get a BG Truthsayer to advise them?
The Emperor's wife is a Truthsayer. I don't recall if Jessica is a Truthsayer, or Irulan, but I don't think so.

We could also change the city specialist from Truthsayer to Priest or Reverend Mother. It feels wrong for city specialists from any faction to be truthsayers (in the same way as it feels weird to me for artists to be gholas).

And then we could make the Reverend Mother resource Truthsayer Advisors. This could be a strategic resource required for the Reverend Mother unit (rather than the little maker resource, which feels weird to be a mpa resource and could be eliminated), and could be a requirement for a Wonder (or wonders) that boosted the yield of priests in all cities (+culture gold from priest specialists) and provided free priests.

We could also take Gholas out of city specialists and make them a unique BTl strategic resource.

 

[keldath]

oh finally someone responds on the city specialists...

i agree with what you suggest!

so - what should i replace the missionaria with?

and what should the promotion do then?

ill just built the first system structure, we can change it later from the ideas that will come up, like you just made.

 

[Deliverator]

I think it is right for little maker to be the resource that allows Reverend Mothers, although we could be more explicit and call it Water of Life perhaps. The point is that they are dependent on a resource which can only be found on Arrakis.

Truthsayers are very senior and highly qualified Reverend Mothers so it would be weird for them to be the prereq for more basic Reverend Mothers. I'm against that idea.

I do agree that Missionaria Protectiva as a resource is odd as is Truthsayers as specialists.

I don't mind the Truthsayer Advisors as a UR, but I wouldn't have it be a strategic one. A couple of other ideas I had for Bene Gesserit URs are:
Prana-Bindu Training (I think we have a civic but that should be rebranded anyway),
Indulgences,
Favor of the Sisterhood

I think Priest probably works best for the city specialist.

For Gholas, I like the cloning of units more than making them a resource.

 

[Ahriman]

We could keep the Reverend mother unit as requiring Water of Life (or Little Maker) resource, but IIRC this really comes from any new spice blow - it doesn't make sense that you have to control a particular rare desert resource in order to build the BG faction's UU.
But in any case we could keep it outside the faction-specific resource mechanic - no faction other than BGs should get Reverend Mothers as in-game units.

The purpose to making Gholas a strategic resource is to make them a requirement for ghola units, but again to mimic the fact that the BTl will gladly sell gholas to other factions.

How about we make the priest city specialist back to a Priest, and its great version a Great Prophet, as vanilla.
And change the ghola city specialist to Noble, and the great version to Great Lord.

This leaves us free to use Truthsayers and Gholas in more canon ways; you only get gholas if you're on good terms with the BTl, and you only get Truthsayers if you're on good terms with the BGs.

So a BTl unique resource could be Gholas, or Axolotl Tanks, instead of or in addition to Sligs.

A BG unique resource could be Truthsayer Advisors. This could allow a Favor of the Sisterhood building that gives +1 happy and +20% culture, and could be required for a Missionaria Protectiva great wonder that gives a bonus to all priest and great priest specialists.

 

[Deliverator]

The Water of Life comes from drowning young sandworms (little makers) in water. The drowned little makers then produce the poisonous liquid. So you do need to get your hands on some young sandworms to get it, but perhaps this is too detailed and RMs shouldn't have a strategic resource prereq. They could just have a UB prereq instead.

 

[keldath]

hey guys , ive created a very diverse factions using the imported bonuses,
i publishing a part of the readme im making for patch 1.3.9, i would like you opinions on this, since ive already done the noted stuff here, i bet you guys will be pleased with most of the stuff, cause now each civ have different things.

also - i think the imported bonuses should have a higher bonus of health/happy/gold value - to make the importAnt to trade after its unique building/unit have been obsolete, perhaps another way is to add a second building and unit type or promotion that will give each of these imported stuff later in the tech tree, so it will always be important to trade res with the various factions.

so here it is:

-unique bonus system:
sapho - left as the only imported bonus that every civ
can get.


*bene gesserit:
can import missionera pro' - allows world wonder - 5
per civ - gives special promossion now.
*tleilax:
slig farm - gives some good economy bonuses - 4 per
world - 1 per civ

*both fremen produce stillsuits - each civ can trade
only one with another civ. also:
naib chosen now uu for chouhada and fedaykin uu for
sihaya - the rest are shared uus - now they each have
uniqueness. tradeing civs will gain access to srill
suit fighter - less powered unit of fedaykin. BOTH
FEDAYKIN AND NAIB ARE Same UNIT TYPE - and they are
invisible!

*ecaz - imports semuta - i thought of making them the
sole sapho importers - but i decided to leave it for
all civs as a world wonder.so emuta allows building
that gives special promotion .if semuta traded 4 civs
can build this world wonder.

*fenring - imports kinjal - allows uu of ginaz
swordmaster - will allow other civs thats trade with
them - unit - ginaz warriors - less powered unit then
ginaz swordmaster.
*harkkonen - they are the only civ that isnt importing
something - but they get a 4th powefull unit - volcan
trooper (4th uu)

*ix - imports thinking machines - get a ixian waepon
platform uu - other units - gets ixian drone - less
powered unit .edit: thinking machines allows acces to
other units - to 3 more unit types - cymek and war
machine. all of ix uus need thinking machins.

*atreidis - imports caladan wine - allows world
building - 3 per game 1 per civ - boost up 1 population
for all cities + some growth bonus

*ordos - gets sabatur - from imported opafire - other
civs will get silent infiltrator - less powered unit of
sabatur - if they tarde opafire with ordos.

*spacing guild - does not import stuff - but other
uniqueness - all of their uus - wil only cost money,
they will have 4-5 uus, and their corporation will be
allowed to spread to other cities - so they can earn
more moeny.

*corinno - imports sardukar coopr' - allows elite
sardukar - other units - gets less powered unit - for
now named sardukar
trust me guys,
agter i finish,

they factions wil lbe very different form one another, i think so far it looks really cool and interesting.


edit: updated the list above

 

[Ahriman]

allows world wonder - 5
per civ

On reflection, there is a bit of a problem with world wonders requiring a tradable resource; its too easy to hold the resource until you build the wonder, and then trade it afterwords when the resource has little value.

And I still think "Missionaria Protectiva" seems very strange as a trade good, I like Truthsayer Advisers much better.

 

[keldath]

your kinda right,
but the thing is,

its a world wonder - meaning how much of these buildings will be allowed to build in the world at the same time - so my idea - that the bene gesserint special building can be built by the bene gesserit - and it will grat the units of the city where it built a special promotion,

and if someone else trades missionaria pro' (i know its temporal name) can also build this wonder and gain this promotion.

the bene gesserit gets 3 missionarai - so why 5 world wonder? cause what if thetrade changes through time - so theres 2 more civs that can have this wonder.

when theres 5 on the world - if a si factions trades the missionaraia for the first time - it wont be able to get that building..cause 5 other civs already built it ...

it a great mechanism.

 

[Ahriman]

its a world wonder - meaning how much of these buildings will be allowed to build in the world at the same time

Aren't all World Wonders limited to 1 in the whole world?
Maybe this should just be a National Wonder (1 per civ) as opposed to a World Wonder; that way any civ who trades for the resource can build the wonder.

 

[keldath]

well,

when you set the world wonder in the xml - you can choose how much buildings of that type will be availble for the game - 2 means that when you play - there can be 2 of this world wonder - 2 for the same civ, or 1 for one civ and one for a second civ.

if you add the national wonder - you limit one world wonder per civ.

dont worry its just xml , it works just like you said:

Maybe this should just be a National Wonder (1 per civ) as opposed to a World Wonder; that way any civ who trades for the resource can build the wonder.

 

[Ahriman]

If you allow say x copies to be built by any players, then you're back to the original tradeable good problem; one faction can build all x copies before agreeing to trade the good.

So it really needs to have a cap of 1 per faction, that way trading the good to someone else will always allow them to build the wonder.

 

[keldath]

thats how it works buddy,
each faction can build just one of this wonder,
each nation have a supply of minimum 2-3 resource - so they will always keep 1 for them selfs - so - no problem and no holding any resource.

 

[Deliverator]

Sapho and Semuta should only be available to Ecaz. This is meant to be one of their faction strengths.

Not sure about the Ordos and Atreides ideas, but perhaps with some renaming they could work.

Wonders-wise you can make the power of the building dependent on the number of the UR that you control using the Bonus modifiers.

Anyway, good work keldath. We can wait until we see what you have implemented in its entirety and then refine the ideas in a future patch.

 

[keldath]

hey,

ok,
i was thinking to leave the sapho to be availble for everyone, cause i liked it that you made sapho as a preqeq for a mentat unit,
and i dont want to limit mentat production only to ecaz and those who trade with them,
so theres two options - leave sapho for everyone - perhaps giving ecaz some bonus from sapho - or even regardless of the sapho suppliers, giving them the ability to have sapho always.
or limiting sapho to ecaz, and making mentats without the preqeq of sapho...

anyway ill leave it for now as i did, unless you suggest otherwise, and in time we can refine this.


yes wonders can be giben some more power ups using num of ur's.

atreides - well - i wasnt happy with it either, but if you have another suggestion - im all ears.
i was thinking maybe changing the caladaninan wine to some kind of another res, something that will be required to build orni thopters - using the great model you did.

ordos, well, that one, i wasn't sure - also - open for suggestions.

going to work now,
i might be able to finish the patch today.

 

[Ahriman]

I'd suggest that you have too many of these trade goods as strategic resources. Take some of them back to just basic luxuries that don't allow any particular building or unit; caladaanian wine or pundi rice should just be happiness or health resources, opafire can just be a happiness resource, semuta can just be a happiness resource, etc.

And again I see no particular reason why you're setting the number of UUs per faction equal (there are other things to consider that change faction balance, like a diplomacy bonus for atreides, and all kinds of UBs and other mechanics like slaves) and why you're not allowing a trade good for the Harkonnen. And you need something for the guild; they're the trade civ, they should be getting *more* stuff from trade techs and buildings and mechanics, not less.

 

[keldath]

hey ,
i dont agree with you,

we have just 12 factions.

with my new unique and resource system, ive made each of them - different from the other.

no all of them have 3 uus, some have 4, some have shared, some uus cost only money, all sorts.

i wnna use the resources imported by civs to give more then just happyness or whatever, now they have a real meaning - if someone trades a resources he not only gains a resource - but gets access to something unique - building or a unit.

with my and deliverator system - factions are much much more distinced from one another,
and yes, i prefer to have 3 uus or more to each civ - cause again, it only adds more diverse.
i do not want to change this one.


trust me youll like what ive done.