offworld trade and resources

[Ahriman]

- no animals
- no units with production costs lower than 1 (eg. settlers, workers...)
- no units with unit combat type lower than 0 (eg. prophets and diplomats)
- no units that need offworld trade resources, you don't have
- no units from invalid era (at least on tech from current era and no tech from a future era)
EDIT:
- no foreign uu's, of course (just one unit in a unit class is allowed)

These are all good restrictions.

All units surving this test have a chance to be randomly selected.

Well, they're certainly not equally likely.

However, I don't think I *ever* see melee units in the list, and hardly ever guardsmen.
I don't see URU's that I *do* have the resource for, or UUs of my faction (hard to tell, there are so few UUs atm).

Almost every game, the purchase list is primarily made up of:
Light carryall
Wasp hornet
Grenade trooper
Falcon thopter
Roller

I see those units more often than every other unit put together.

And sometimes:
Eagle thopter
Light scorpion
Medium carryall
The first bomber.

And I usually abandon the game before the very lategame, so they might be working fine.

Maybe there are some issues with which units are assigned to which eras?

I will pay more attention next time I play.

Major problem I have is that the unit doesn't exist in the moment the promotions are generated. This make it hard to decide wether a unit can have a promotion or not. But I will think about it. Maybe we should reduce elite unit costs (currently 150%) as a quick measure?

How about not generating promotions; instead, just some of the units in the list are Elite and cost more. And elite units either:
a) get a couple of random *applicable* promotions assigned to them once they are purchased OR
b) Start with a bunch of free xp (+6 maybe?).

Why generate the promotion before the unit is purchased? All you need to know is that the unit is of quality elite, and then process effects on it once it is purchased.

 

[davidlallen]

Why generate the promotion before the unit is purchased? All you need to know is that the unit is of quality elite, and then process effects on it once it is purchased.

That is a good suggestion. On the one hand, it is more realistic for the elite unit to already have some promotions and you can't control it; in that case, I would at least like to see the promotions to know if it's worthwhile. However on the other hand, it is more fun if the user can control the promotions. So I would suggest 6 XP instead of possibly inappropriate promotions.

 

[Ahriman]

The difference between a unit with 2 free promotions and a unit with free xp for level 2 is that the former still only needs 2 xp for a 3rd promotion and 3xp more beyond that for a 4th, whereas the level 2 unit needs much more.

So I do see the attraction of giving free promotions rather than XP; it can help make the units feel more elite.
So maybe +8 free xp on elite units, if you use the xp method?

 

[koma13]

Almost every game, the purchase list is primarily made up of:
Light carryall
Wasp hornet
Grenade trooper
Falcon thopter
Roller

I see those units more often than every other unit put together.

And sometimes:
Eagle thopter
Light scorpion
Medium carryall
The first bomber.

And I usually abandon the game before the very lategame, so they might be working fine.

Well, here is the unit list for Atreides directly taken from code:

Spoiler :

Era 2 (Mihna):

Wasp
Grenade Trooper
Roller
Light Carryall
Falcon Thopter
Maula Mortar

Era 3 (Hajra):

Missile Trooper
Shield Fighter
Heavy Trooper
Mentat
Light Scorpion
Suspensor Destroyer
Missile Launcher
Assault Cannon
Firefly

Era 4 (Tahaddi):

Lasgun Soldier
Medium Scorpion
Bee Sting Trooper
Kindjal Soldier
Lasgun Trooper
Mongoose Trooper
Suspensor Carrier
Buzzard Thopter
Locust

Era 5 (Ijaz):

Dragonfly
Medium Carryall
Eagle Thopter
Suspensor Cruiser
Heavy Scorpion
Suspensor Frigate
Heavy Artillery

Keep in mind the siege units are new...

So maybe +8 free xp on elite units, if you use the xp method?

I like that too. And it's easy to code.

 

[Deliverator]

All the units frequently seen seem to be coming from Era 2.

Can we add in Hardened Bladesmen? That must pretty much be an Era 2 unit.

 

[Ahriman]

Some of that is weird.
Hardened bladesmen, hawk/vulture thopter, suspensor gunship, suspensor transport, and maula guardsmen should all be era 1-2.

Wasp, light carryall, roller, falcon thopter are really all era 3 units.

This explains a lot of the weirdness.

Can you make units in the pool automatically upgrade to their higher tier version if unpurchased? That would add some nice strategy; either get the units now for cheap and use them, or delay and get better units later. And it would help move out of the weaker low-end units.
And maybe the pool refresh rate should be increased a little (be tied to game speed, and also have a slight negative feedback, so the pool grows slower if it has lots of units in it, and faster if it has fewer units in it)?

 

[koma13]

Can we add in Hardened Bladesmen?

Hardened Bladesmen are from era 1 (first era is 0). Offworld trade is era 2. First 5 units are generated from this era. But I will check it.

Can you make units in the pool automatically upgrade to their higher tier version if unpurchased? That would add some nice strategy; either get the units now for cheap and use them, or delay and get better units later. And it would help move out of the weaker low-end units.
And maybe the pool refresh rate should be increased a little (be tied to game speed, and also have a slight negative feedback, so the pool grows slower if it has lots of units in it, and faster if it has fewer units in it)?

Ok, I will try it.

 

[davidlallen]

@ koma13 - I will plan to package the 1.6 release in about 6-8 hours. Do you still plan an update for the homeworld screen? If not, can you help me clean out the graphics directory? No big deal either way, there will always be more releases.

 

[koma13]

@ koma13 - I will plan to package the 1.6 release in about 6-8 hours. Do you still plan an update for the homeworld screen? If not, can you help me clean out the graphics directory? No big deal either way, there will always be more releases.
Oct 19, 2009 11:24 PM

Well, I have just finished an update, but...

1) I incoperated the gameplay mechanics suggested by ahriman and didn't had any time to make real tests.
2) I didn't had time to finish the special screen for fremen.
3) I didn't had time to finish the additional unit info, shown in a screen a few days ago.
4) I have improved the sequence mechanic, having many advantages over the former concept, but I don't have any experience with the sequence playing on other computers (maybe too slow, too fast? )

Otherwise, it is a fine update.

Here is a changelog:

Spoiler :

-added new, controversial sequence featuring a space guild navigator
-added button to turn on/off sequence
-increased stability, impossible to crash
-ui is now non-blocking, allowing player to access buttons all the time (try it)
-linked unit icons to civilopedia, click on it to open dedicated unit page
-can't select units anymore when short of money
-removed home planet from civilopedia
-fixed/tweaked some minor graphic issues
-added new sound effect for transition
-units in the pool automatically upgrade to their higher tier version (if available) when player advance to new era
-units in the pool can now be from last era, but only if no higher tier version is availabe in current era
-fixed bug preventing siege units from showing up in unit pool
-elite units get now 8xp
-made refresh rate of unit pool more dynamic, here is the formula in case anyone is interested:
SpawningChance * (100.0 / (TrainPercent + CurrentUnitsInPool))

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zn4tmmm1mzz

 

[davidlallen]

Great. I will clean out the art/interface/screens/homeworld directory in my area and replace with this. It looks like only 1-2 files collide with mine, so I will merge those.

I had not noticed before, but it looks like your animation is done by flipping dds files. For some future release, is it worthwhile to consider converting this into a bik movie? Or is it hard to add a movie control to your screen?

 

[koma13]

I had not noticed before, but it looks like your animation is done by flipping dds files. For some future release, is it worthwhile to consider converting this into a bik movie? Or is it hard to add a movie control to your screen?

I tried using a bik movie first, but there're some downsides:

1) bik doesn't support transparency, making it impossible to seamlessy integrate it into the screen as it is now
2) it is much easier (at least for me) creating a bunch of dds files instead of having to render a movie
3) I didn't found a way to close the bik movie, after it is played. Firaxis guys do it by creating an extra screen for the movie, and then just closing the whole movie screen, but I am not sure it is possible to place a new screen on top of an existing screen and keep its visibility... I will try that later

For now, I need some break from doing homeworld screen (but I will fix any bugs of course) and want to focus next on better ai city placement.

 

[davidlallen]

For now, I need some break from doing homeworld screen (but I will fix any bugs of course) and want to focus next on better ai city placement.

Excellent! I wish that the Arrakis mapscript used the same code as AI colony placement during the game. Was it you who suggested that perhaps the whole huge function AI_foundValue could be replaced with something much simpler customized for DW? I think that is the right approach. I never got back to my project of studying and adding comments to the existing function. Do you think it is worth a thread, to propose and review a simple function for city placement? For example, +50 points per adjacent ocean/coast plot, +100 points for each water bonus, etc?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I wonder, is it also possible to make another offworld trade to the Guild of Transporters (or whatever theyre called) for some Guild UUs (like those from Emperor:Battle for Dune)?

 

[koma13]

I had not noticed before, but it looks like your animation is done by flipping dds files. For some future release, is it worthwhile to consider converting this into a bik movie? Or is it hard to add a movie control to your screen?

I think I found a way to play a movie in the homeworld screen. But I don't have any video clip to play. The Lynch movie transition is too long to get any context in 4-6 seconds. Deliverator, can you upload that sequence from emperor game you mentioned? Or someone has maybe a better idea?

 

[Ahriman]

PL, read the original Dune by Frank Herbert already

That is a MUCH better source of what we're trying to achieve here than the Westwood games.

I don't really think it makes sense for the Guild to be a corporation that is only present/accessible to some civs in any particular game.

The Guild are scrupulously neutral. They will move troops for anyone - they'll even move troops for different sides of a conflict in the hold of the same heighliner, and those troops won't attack each other for fear of guild sanctions in retribution (blockade/embargo).
They don't pick sides - at least, not until threatened with the destruction of all Spice.

 

[Slvynn]

What if we deny acess to Spice Guild if civ adopt Arrakis Paradise? Makes alot of sence book wise. Guild wont cooperate with one who want to destroy spice, and they are know whats that Paradise about... Paradise already have its terraforming things, may be will need to balance it abit.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

PL, read the original Dune by Frank Herbert already

yes sir

 

[davidlallen]

What if we deny acess to Spice Guild if civ adopt Arrakis Paradise? Makes alot of sence book wise. Guild wont cooperate with one who want to destroy spice, and they are know whats that Paradise about... Paradise already have its terraforming things, may be will need to balance it abit.

That's an interesting idea. The Fremen get their reinforcements from elsewhere on-planet, so the guild could not affect that. But other terraformers might lose access to the homeworld screen.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

you could also make terraformers forge alliances with the Smugglers to smuggle them to and from their homeworld for reinforcements/ trade etc. this could come at a chance each turn of getting relation penalties with Guild-faring civs ('You trade behind the back of the Guild').

 

[Ahriman]

What if we deny acess to Spice Guild if civ adopt Arrakis Paradise?

The problem I have with all this (and the conflict between spice and terraforming) is:
the participants involved don't really know that terraforming will lead to destruction of the spice. The Landsraad/Emperor don't know it, the Fremen don't know it, and I don't think the Guild know it either.

If the Guild wanted to stop Fremen from terraforming, they could just stop takingt their bribes to hide it from space, and set up satellites. Its not like they don't know about the plantings.

Do we have any evidence that the Guild knows that greening arrakis will cut off the spice flow? The Guild only need a little spice anyway.

Its worth considering though.