offworld trade and resources

[Ahriman]

We could tone the 50% down to 40%, but they're not quite the same as shield fighter, because they lack the city attack bonus. That is a big difference; they're not good assault troops (melee units aren't likely to be city defenders).

I'd imagine the higher level version would be strength 18, ignores city walls, +40% vs melee units.

 

[God-Emperor]

This is very well described in Dune Wars Concepts in pedia.

Expecting everyone to remember what every resource does is a bad design. It will not encourage new players to continue playing.

From the screen where you have to pick the resource, there is no easy way to get to the pedia. With the "pick your resource" dialog up, clicking the pedia button does nothing and pressing F12 does nothing. You need to know the trick of picking the Examine City option from the menu and then, once in the city, pressing F12 (or possibly right clicking on an icon in the list of things you can build) to get to the pedia. Then you need to go to the concepts section. Or someone might go to the resources list and check them - except that this lists all the resources, so you have to then remember which of the 35 resources is on the list and which of them are on the map (I don't remember seeing anything in the descriptions that says "You can only get this resource via off-world trade", but there is a hint in that there is no improvement listed for them).

I agree that the bonus you get from the Ginaz resource is weak. It only lets you build one new unit. That unit can be promoted to a unit that anyone can build that costs exactly the same amount and is stronger in some situations and weaker in others. Adding a promoted version would be good, even something that is exactly the same except for being base strength 15 instead of 12 and costing 25-30% more would be sufficient (the original would no longer be the swordmaster, the upgraded one would be the master, the original could just be "Ginaz Swordsman"), available at some tech past the original's place in the tech tree.

BTW, it would be nice if everything on the list actually did something - as far as I can tell sapho juice is completely useless at this point (I didn't check the python, so there may be some purely python function to it). Pick it and you waste one of your two contracts. Until some new mentat functionality is added it should either be removed from the list or given some standard property like happiness.

 

[Slvynn]

Expecting everyone to remember what every resource does is a bad design. It will not encourage new players to continue playing.

From the screen where you have to pick the resource, there is no easy way to get to the pedia. With the "pick your resource" dialog up, clicking the pedia button does nothing and pressing F12 does nothing. You need to know the trick of picking the Examine City option from the menu and then, once in the city, pressing F12 (or possibly right clicking on an icon in the list of things you can build) to get to the pedia. Then you need to go to the concepts section. Or someone might go to the resources list and check them - except that this lists all the resources, so you have to then remember which of the 35 resources is on the list and which of them are on the map (I don't remember seeing anything in the descriptions that says "You can only get this resource via off-world trade", but there is a hint in that there is no improvement listed for them).

I agree that the bonus you get from the Ginaz resource is weak. It only lets you build one new unit. That unit can be promoted to a unit that anyone can build that costs exactly the same amount and is stronger in some situations and weaker in others. Adding a promoted version would be good, even something that is exactly the same except for being base strength 15 instead of 12 and costing 25-30% more would be sufficient (the original would no longer be the swordmaster, the upgraded one would be the master, the original could just be "Ginaz Swordsman"), available at some tech past the original's place in the tech tree.

BTW, it would be nice if everything on the list actually did something - as far as I can tell sapho juice is completely useless at this point (I didn't check the python, so there may be some purely python function to it). Pick it and you waste one of your two contracts. Until some new mentat functionality is added it should either be removed from the list or given some standard property like happiness.

As i remeber Quest texts from vanilla - they are quite filled with descriptions, same are FFH random events, but the list is big, is it possible to have some scrolling in that popup? As far as i remeber it is, so format of Quests/FFh evens is quite good then, with descriptions in it having smaller font.

 

[Ahriman]

Expecting everyone to remember what every resource does is a bad design.

Is there any way to add mouseover text or something to the various event choice options?

Or change the text strings so that that they come with hint text:
Eg:

"Soostone (happiness luxury)" instead of "Soostone"
Pundi rice (health luxury)
"Sardaukar cooperation (superior assault troops)"

Another thought: if we're giving Fremen their water debt from the palace, maybe we could block them from building the landing stage? Its not like they have a lot of offworld trade access.
Or they could get "smuggler's den" building that was a UU replacement of the landing stage, and gave the trade yield bonus without triggering the trade contract event.

Less access to offworld goods would make a nice compensation device for bonuses from other buildings (like the deathstills now, and maybe we could go back to the Sietch building that had some other benefits).

 

[Slvynn]

Smugglers Den is quite nice idea, It can be only way for fremen to get units that are match unit-line of great houses. Themselves i think shey should have own list of units, and some of High-civ offworld technologies and unit types (vehicles/thopters) should be aviable for them only via smuggler's den. They are not that advanced to lets say build some tanks/wasps before great houses civs.

 

[Ahriman]

As mentioned in the factions thread, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326273&page=6 (post 116 for eg) we are considering removing most vehicles, aircraft and suspensors from Fremen, and letting them capture vehicles in combat and purchase some from offworld.

This would require major AI changes as a pre-requisite, teaching Fremen how to use all-terrain infantry appropriately. And then design of some other units.

 

[Deliverator]

I agree that the bonus you get from the Ginaz resource is weak. It only lets you build one new unit. That unit can be promoted to a unit that anyone can build that costs exactly the same amount and is stronger in some situations and weaker in others. Adding a promoted version would be good, even something that is exactly the same except for being base strength 15 instead of 12 and costing 25-30% more would be sufficient (the original would no longer be the swordmaster, the upgraded one would be the master, the original could just be "Ginaz Swordsman"), available at some tech past the original's place in the tech tree.

I wonder whether Ginaz training might be cooler as a Melee unit promotion you can only get if you have the Ginaz offworld resource. You could make have 4 levels e.g. Ginaz 1st Level, 4th Level, 7th Level, 10th Level. Since, the levels of Ginaz training are something out of the canon, it might be a nice thing to represent. It would need custom code to only allow this Promotion with the Ginaz resource. Perhaps also build some custom code so that there is a World limit of the number of units allowed to obtain each Ginaz level promotion, so that there can only be a small number of units with 10th Level swordmaster at any one time.

 

[davidlallen]

Expecting everyone to remember what every resource does is a bad design. It will not encourage new players to continue playing.

Thank you for the feedback. I chose the method which was fastest to implement, in order to get comments as to whether the idea was even worth pursuing. The idea seems worthwhile, so we can discuss a better way to implement.

You may know that the current implementation is based on random events. This way, the amount of new code is small. In particular, each selection generates a building which produces resources, and the AI uses the existing random event weight system to decide which resource to choose. So none of that required any code at all.

Is there a way to put some kind of helpful hover text or icons or anything into the random event popup? I don't think so, but that would be the easiest way to improve it.

I could make a custom popup. I have done one very simple popup before; if you build a mentat, you can see this. It just has a bunch of buttons. This design is probably just as bad as the existing one. Perhaps I could extend this to have icons which link to the pedia. But, then I have to add code which launches the popup at the right time and helps the AI to choose which option.

Thinking more globally about off world resources, is the idea of a popup when you build a landing stage even the right one? If there is a better way to approach the problem, then it may not be worth putting effort into making a more helpful popup.

 

[davidlallen]

I wonder whether Ginaz training might be cooler as a Melee unit promotion you can only get if you have the Ginaz offworld resource.

That is an interesting idea. My concept of the ginaz unit was that it was a *single man* who could make a huge contribution to a battle. In that case, you could not send out a unit to get this promotion, but you could hire one.

If you think about it as a promotion, I imagine the training would take some time, and would be performed offworld; so perhaps the promotion would somehow remove the unit from the game for some time.

Why would there be a world limit? If we have reached the world limit, what is the reason that another unit cannot get the promotion?

 

[Deliverator]

Why would there be a world limit? If we have reached the world limit, what is the reason that another unit cannot get the promotion?

Well, I imagine the Ginaz levels are similar to the system of dans in a martial art like Kendo - only a very small percentage of fighters are good enough to achieve the highest level. So a crude way is to restrict the number of units that have the promotion simultaneously.

 

[Ahriman]

Thinking more globally about off world resources, is the idea of a popup when you build a landing stage even the right one?

Well, I think it works fine. Simple is good. And I think tweaking the choice text strings a la "Sardaukar cooperation (superior assault troops)" would work fine as an explanation.

My concept of the ginaz unit was that it was a *single man* who could make a huge contribution to a battle.

I don't think this is right. No single man makes any significant difference in a fight at the scale of hundreds->thousands of soldiers that we're talking about. We aren't representing skirmishes here, we're representing war, like at the scale of the Harkonnen invasion of Arrakis (which I think is on the order of 200,000 soldiers? I may be misremembering though).
I think that what we're representing is some elite units who have had their training from Swordmasters (who in turn were trained at the Ginaz school). So, if you get the Ginaz training resource, you now have some swordmasters as part of your retinue, who can provide some elite/high level training to your soldiers.

so perhaps the promotion would somehow remove the unit from the game for some time.

This doesn't sound like fun to me.

I wonder whether Ginaz training might be cooler as a Melee unit promotion you can only get if you have the Ginaz offworld resource.

The way I would envision implementing this is to have a string of superior resources that required the resource.
Ginaz tranining 1 = +10% strength, +10% vs melee units.
Ginaz training 2 = +15% vs melee units, 80% resistance to collateral damage
Ginaz training 3 = +10% strength, immune to first strikes
Or something like this.
Maybe the promotions could also have a level requirement, so only level 2 units could learn Ginaz training 1 for eg.

Why would there be a world limit? If we have reached the world limit, what is the reason that another unit cannot get the promotion?

Combination of balance and fluff. We wouldn't want the resource to be too powerful, and we wouldn't want to lose the feel of this being something elite, rather than generally available.
Remember how Duncan Idaho, Gurney Hallack and Thufir Hawat have trained a small handful of Atreides forces to be as good as the Sardaukar. That is what I think we are trying to envision here.
I'm not sure how feasible a national cap would be if we made it a promotion though; if we want a national cap I think we need to stick with unique-resource units, like the one we already have.

 

[davidlallen]

It may be possible to add a line of Ginaz promotions which require a bonus; I don't think there are any like this today, but ""it's just one more xml field"" in the sdk. I think one level of Ginaz training would have to give a much larger benefit compared to one level of anything else; for example, if Combat I to Combat II gives +10%, perhaps Ginaz I to Ginaz II would give +20%.

I agree it will be difficult to implement any kind of cap on this, and I don't like this part of the idea anyway. If you have a cap of 10, and an 11th unit has the prerequisites to get the promotion, what is preventing them? If we want to make it hard to achieve the promotion by requiring a lot of experience and prerequisities, that is fine, but a cap doesn't seem fair.

I think there was still a comment that the existing Ginaz unit is not powerful enough. What do you recommend about this, independent of any promotions we add?

 

[Ahriman]

perhaps Ginaz I to Ginaz II would give +20%.

If this was an unrestricted promotion (ie no cap on number of units who could have it) then that would be way too strong. A single resource (which for baseline gives +2 happy) would effectively be adding +10% strength to all your units *per level*.

what is preventing them?

The idea would be that you only have a handful of actual Ginaz-trained swordmasters, and they can only train so many guys, not your entire massive army.
Plus, its important that the Ginaz training just be for Elites, one resource shouldn't allow you to field an entire army of ubermensch.

I think there was still a comment that the existing Ginaz unit is not powerful enough. What do you recommend about this, independent of any promotions we add?

Actually I think the comment was that the existing Ginaz unit is if anything too strong for its slot, but that there needs to be another Ginaz slot at the the Kindjal blades tech.
Just like how there are 2 Sardaukar units, 1 at personal shields and 1 at Kindjal blades. At the moment we only have a personal shields unit, we should add a kindjal blades ginaz unit.

 

[Slvynn]

I like promotion-related Ginaz bonus idea

 

[davidlallen]

If this was an unrestricted promotion (ie no cap on number of units who could have it) then that would be way too strong. A single resource (which for baseline gives +2 happy) would effectively be adding +10% strength to all your units *per level*.

I do not think anybody proposed that when you get this bonus, all your units in the field and all future units automatically get the promotion. The bonus unlocks a promotion, which any appropriate unit can pick when they gain a level, just like Blitz is unlocked by some late game tech in vanilla. If Ginaz II requires Ginaz I and also something else like Combat III, it seems this automatically puts a tough requirement on the number of units to have it. Only the most experienced units will qualify.

 

[Ahriman]

I do not think anybody proposed that when you get this bonus, all your units in the field and all future units automatically get the promotion.

No, but over time you'll always choose the superior promotions, every time you level up.
It doesn't need to be instant for it to be very very powerful.

If Ginaz II requires Ginaz I and also something else like Combat III

Its doable, I suppose.

This would give it some nice synergy with Kanly. Which feels somewhat flavorful (both kanly and the ginaz school are kindof the archaic formal honor code type things - and both are favored by Duke Leto Atreides).

 

[Slvynn]

Koma!!!!

Look at his picture - its really awesome and can be good for Fremen HW screen.
http://tenuki.freeblog.hu/files/fremen.jpg

 

[Deliverator]

I think there was still a comment that the existing Ginaz unit is not powerful enough. What do you recommend about this, independent of any promotions we add?

I was thinking that the Ginaz promotions would replace the Ginaz Swordmaster unit so it would be removed when they are added. Ginaz swordsmen would be represented by Shield Fighters, Kindjal Soldiers, etc with the Ginaz promotions.

The broader thing I would like with the offworld resources is to try and broaden the range of effects to make the decision between them more interesting. Having Ginaz allow two units just like Sardaukar Coop, feels like duplication where if Ginaz allows you to apply these new Promotions that is a more interesting alternative.

 

[Ahriman]

I was thinking that the Ginaz promotions would replace the Ginaz Swordmaster unit so it would be removed when they are added.

Agreed, but I think David meant if we *don't* go the promotion route how should we change the Ginaz units.

Having Ginaz allow two units just like Sardaukar Coop, feels like duplication

I guess I would argue the strategic difference is tha one is single-faction only (Corrino) and the other is generally available to the first to get it.

 

[koma13]

Koma!!!!

Look at his picture - its really awesome and can be good for Fremen HW screen.
http://tenuki.freeblog.hu/files/fremen.jpg

If you guys like this pic, I can place it.

Btw, any progress with the main interface? I plan to leave dune wars team. So if you want to have the interface placed by me, try to finish at least one set/flavor.