OFW1 Science and Industry

[Northern Pike]

Well, when I read the first lines of your report, my immediate thought was that you'd generated a Great Leader and then let him get killed before he could rush the new palace. What really happened wasn't nearly as bad as that.

I chose Democracy as our tech objective strictly to get us to Free Artistry/Shakespeare; the idea that we'd actually change governments was so far from my mind that I didn't even discuss it. That's the point of succession games, I suppose: you learn which of your automatic assumptions other people don't automatically share.

When you wrote that there didn't seem to be any penalty for our negative cash status, I assumed that the computer must just have been depriving us of a worker a turn, but even that doesn't seem to be happening. Peculiar.

My understanding is that when a city goes into disorder with one turn left on its build, the build completes if 100% of the necessary shields have already been accumulated (which is the case with a rush, or perhaps the conversion of a prebuild), otherwise not.

Giving in the to Russian demand was quite right, in the circumstances.

So in the end it was a run of (at least) 37 elite victories without a Great Leader, in the worst 4% of possibilities.

 

[Northern Pike]

OneFastWarrior, it looks as though the anarchy will end in 1050. You seem to have a lot of good options. The Romans are so backward that you could probably give them a severe battering just with the knights now in Mongolia, although the extreme war weariness suffered by a democracy might keep us from getting to Rome in one campaign.

You could also decide to tie up some loose ends, and dispose of the Koreans and (apart from Taejon, probably) the Chinese.

It would be tremendous to get Newton in Persepolis, where we already have Copernicus. It might even be worth starting a palace prebuild there now, although this would certainly be a gamble, since if another civ completed Magellan before we got Free Artistry the palace prebuild would have to move to Pasargadae and the shields in Persepolis would be lost. (But there's nothing useful for Pers. to build at the moment except military units, which makes the gamble look a bit better.) You'll have to make the call based on how quickly we can afford to research Free Artistry once the anarchy ends. Either way, we should have a palace prebuild going in Pers. from the moment Pas. can switch to Shakespeare.

 

[mad-bax]

I did think the switch from Republic to Democracy was odd. It's not as if we need the fast workers. I assumed it was to minimise the corruption in our rather large empire. It's obvious now that the tech was just a stepping stone for Shakespears.

I agree with the plan to damage the Romans. We may as well use the Elite knights on a weak civ. Another leader now would be a great help. The RNG still owes us.

Fundamentally though our problem revolves around the three strongest Civs. We need to kneecap them all, preferably before nationalism. Taking on the Greeks with nationalism won't be too bad as they can't upgrade hoplites, so I would leave them till last.

I'm going to start filling in a 20K calculator spreadsheet to see when we will finish.

Good luck OFW.

 

[mad-bax]

Taking anarchy into account our predicted finish date is turn 402, which is I think 1874AD. A little disappointing.

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, disappointing and surprising. It's hard to see how a 20k drive at this difficulty level could go much better than ours has. But with our second core now developing properly, we can string the game out as long as it takes while pillaging the other civs into the Stone Age, if necessary. :vampire:

 

[OneFastWarrior]

Well, this should be interesting, I probably would not have swircthed governments till a little later, but, I can deal with it for the less corruption.

What happened to the forests for extra shields in Pasargadae and perseopolis? We don't need the extra food.

1. 1040 AD Greece builds Magellans Voyage, trying just to get Through anarchy.

2. 1050AD Pasargadae was on Magellans, switch to Palace. Anarchy Ends Switch to Democracy. Immediately we are at +504gpt. at 50% science we will have Free Artistry in 4 turns at +71GPT,(MM to up it to +83gpt). Seding 1 caravel with 3 vet knights aboard to finish off Egypt(It will not arrive during my turns) Organizing troops for invasion of Rome. Change Science to 60% and we get FA in 3 still earning +18gpt.


3. 1060AD Egypt Declares war on China
Carthage is building Smiths. Upgrade Galley to Caravel. Trade WM around for some money and current maps. Korea gives us 1gpt,12gold and map. Let the deal run out before finishing them off . Rome is Furious with us, think it has something to do with burning cities to the ground? I really don't know what to do with the settlers we have built at this point so they are going to be near rome when I am done.

4. 1070AD Greece is building Smiths and so is Russia. We have 10 knights next to rome border, war is iminent!!

5. 1080AD Free Artistry discovered-Physics in 4 turns at 50%. Change Pasargadae to Shakespeares(18 turns) Change Perseoplolis to Palace.
I decide to take a gamble(I hope it does not trip us up) trade Free Artistry and WM to Russia for Military Tradition, 56 gold and 4gpt. Trade Free artistry, WM and 59 gold to Greece for Economics--Change Perseoplolis to Smiths(I really hope I did not screw us)

6. 1090AD lost Gems from America, I don't renew. Declare War on Rome. Hopefully we can do this quick before war weariness sets in.
Elite knight kills Pike in Byzantium, 2nd Elite takes it. Both redline. Library.
Upgrade 4 knights in Antioch to Cavalry.

7. 1100AD Elite Knight beats Pike in Ravenna, 2nd Elite takes Ravenna, both down to 2 bars. Elite Knight wins battle on the road. 2 vet knights kill 2 MI's

 

[OneFastWarrior]

And the rest!!

8. 1110AD Roman Legionaires rush to the front! 1 vet knight redlines, 1 dies. 3rd 1 wins at Neapolis. Science to 30% Physics in 1. Luxury to 10%.

9. 1120AD Lost our Spices!. trdae Carthage Saltpeter for Dyes 49 gold and WM. Greece is building Newtons. Physics Discovered, Theory of Evolution in 4 turns at 50% science. In techs right now that is the only one not known to us. Greece and Russia know it.

IBT Roman Legionaires and MI's come from under the fog and attack us 1 Elite and 1 vet die, 2 more redline(Ouch!)

10. 1130AD Russia is Building Newtons. And on the very last of my turns we get this

He is actually named "Da Man"

There is a Caravel with 3 Cavalry aboard headed into the coast near Rome, you can bring the great leader home on this!! The 3 knights for Egypt should be there in 2 or 3 turns(Ihope that was enough)

Perseopolis is 16 turns from smiths, but we almost have Theory Researched so? and Pasargadae is 12 turns from Shakespeares. Don;t forget I made some risky trades so I don't know how close Greece, Russia and or Carthage are from these.

Use the Leader wisely

Good luck NP Here is the Save

 

[Northern Pike]

I haven't looked at the save yet, but obviously an excellent turn. It seems I'll have some interesting choices regarding Wonders and the Great Leader.

My assumption is that the forests around Persepolis and Susa disappeared because mad-bax was trying to prevent starvation during anarchy.

 

[mad-bax]

NP, you are far too kind to me. The forrest near Susa was chopped because it was losing 2 food per turn in anarchy and would have lost a pop point at the predicted anarchy end date.
Two other forrests were chopped to put shields to Pasargadaes market. I think they were the only forrests though I may be wrong.

I don't do forrestry much and when I do it tends to be late in the game where I have a team that plants/chops/irrigates all in one turn. Then I can use a screen shot to keep track of which tiles have been done.

In this case I meant to re-plant after claiming the shields but didn't want to interrupt workers to do it. Then when they became available, I simply forgot

OFW: Unfortunately I am a careless player. I'm trying to change because I know it would be good for my game, but it's in my nature, so it's difficult.

EDIT: Now we have another leader maybe we could consider putting both Shakespears and Newtons in Pasargadae. Obviously having Copenicus and Newtons in the same city is great, but if we are to focus wholly on 20K wouldn't this be a good move?

And finally OFW: Well played

 

[OneFastWarrior]

I did not even think of the fact that we were in anarchy and may have needed the extra food. Sorry, I was not thinking about that when I was looking.

as for the leader, you have many options. It would be great to have both Copernicus and Newton's in the same city, However, it would also be great to get Shakespeares for the added culture for our 20K city.

At our current rate of research, I believe we could be in the tech lead as we head into the Industrial ages, so we should be able to build almost anything we want.(I hope)
We can also build Military Academy now, it would add 1 cpt to pasargadae if you should choose after you do whatever you choose to do there 1st.

 

[Northern Pike]

I've just posted in all my games except the one in which I'm up. My turns are going very slowly, because I've had to adjust to two rounds of war weariness, but I should have the save and the report by this time tomorrow.

The war weariness is an incredible pain in the fundament, but the things which matter are going well. We should make a clean sweep of Shakespeare, Newton, and Adam Smith.

Is it true that the third round of WW in democracy takes the form of a descent into anarchy? I've almost never made war in democracy, so I'd be glad to hear what you gentlemen know about this.

 

[mad-bax]

I can't find the link, but I've read about it.
You will know that war weariness accumulates on a points basis. Any unit ending its turn in enemy territory gets a point, any enemy ending it's turn in your territory gets a point, any units killed gets points (dunno how many) a razed city gets 65 points I think.

The thread I read said that WW increases in steps as point targets are reached. The difference between Republic and Democracy is that Democracy has one more step than Republic. In other words there is a maximum limit for WW in a Republic but in Democracy there is a further step, which is the overthrow of the government.

WW resets completely after 20 turns.

It happened to me in the first ever game of Civ I played. But never since.

It is possible to predict exactly when the first round of WW will kick in and make peace on that turn. But that is far more effort than this civ addict is willing to expend.

I'll try to find the link.

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks for the quick response. If democracy has one more level of WW than republic, then presumably the fourth level, not the third, is the revolt.

 

[mad-bax]

This is how I remember it. But I will try to find the link to confirm. The contributors were eminent people and they performed a proper study.

 

[mad-bax]

Nope I was wrong as usual. Here is the thread. I believe it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=975772#post975772

 

[Northern Pike]

Good work hunting down the thread. Important information any time--and particularly in our position, as you'll see.

 

[Northern Pike]

ROMAN HOLIDAY


1130 (0): I study the foreign cities building Wonders, and decide that Pasargadae and Persepolis can be trusted to complete Shakespeare and Newton under their own power. The only really threatening Wonder city is Sparta, and it's building Adam Smith. The one thing we can't do, oddly, is use Darius to rush Smith right now, because then Sparta would cascade to Shakespeare and probably get it. So Darius will relax in Pas. until he can rush Smith after Shakespeare is built there.

The only thing I don't like about our position is that we've stopped building workers, with numerous merges still to do and the railway era approaching fast. I switch various corrupt cities to workers.

I cash-rush some spearmen in our ungarrisoned overseas cities.

Roman counterattacks outside Neapolis destroy two of our knights, including Da Man.


1140 (1): Knight --> cavalry upgrades in Ravenna.

1150 (2): I begin assembling a lumberjacking team around New Persepolis.

1160 (3): I sell Theology to the Egyptians for 29 gold, then declare war on them (honourably) and land our strike force of three veteran knights next to Buto.

Our modest stack of cavalry advances towards Neapolis. Three Roman MDI die attacking it, and we get two promotions to elite.

We get Theory of Gravity.


1170 (4): Our attack on Buto fails! The town is only garrisoned by spearmen, but it's on a hill, and two of our knights retreat, while only one wins. The knights use their remaining MP to retreat ignominiously onto our caravel, which carries them towards Bampur to heal.

The Romans have a tremendous number of units in front of Neapolis, including knights. We aren't going to make quick progress on this part of the front, technological superiority or no. I start assembling a mini-SoD of cavalry to attack the Romans on their other flank, through Hispalis.

The first round of WW hits. I give the Carthaginians ToG for spices and 26 gold, and jack up the luxury rate.

The Greeks are in the Industrial Age.

Darius sails from Byblos to Antioch in one turn, thanks to ship-chaining.


1180 (5): The RNG gives us a terrible time in our skirmishing with the Romans. We lose two cavalry in good attacks on MDI, and then our One Fast Mad Northern Pike elite Immortal dies attacking a warrior unfortified on plains.


1190 (6): Things improve on the Ravenna-Neapolis front, as we destroy an MDI and a knight without loss.


1200 (7): We renew our incense deal with the Americans, giving them Physics and 60 gold.

On the Ravenna-Neapolis front we destroy two MDI and a longbowman without loss.

The Egyptians, still fighting, land a spearman next to Kandahar.

Our cavalry mini-SoD moves adjacent to Hispalis.


1210 (8): The Russian and the Carths. are in the Industrial Age.

Our eastern strike force of cavalry takes Hispalis from one pikeman, then Pisae from two legionaries, without loss.

The Egyptian spearman attacks Kandahar--a very rare thing for the AI to do with a defensive unit, in my experience--and dies.

We get Magnetism and enter the Industrial Age. Our free tech is Steam Power, which in principle is ideal; but it has no trade value, as the Greeks and Russians already have it, along with Medicine. No one else, not even the Carths., can offer anything worth mentioning for it.

The second round of WW hits, and we have to revert to single-scientist research.


1220 (9): Neapolis finally falls, to the attack of three cavalry (garrison of two pikes, one cav retreats).

We take Antium from two legionaries, without loss.

 

[Northern Pike]

1230 (10): Our humiliated forces in the south make their second attack on Buto. Once again the two Egyptian spearmen put up a good fight, but this time we prevail--by one hit point on our last unit. We enter the city, and--the Egyptians are still in the game! The s_____gs must have loaded a settler onto a galley while our troops were healing after their initial repulse. What's more, they won't even talk to us about peace, which exacerbates our war weariness problems (though not by much, I hope).

We take Viroconium, two cavalry defeating two legionaries, so at least we have a neatened-up position on the Roman front from which to make peace.

Now, a difficult decision. The idea of winding up the Roman campaign just before we would take Rome is unpleasant. The first two rounds of WW hit after the 1170 and 1210 turns, so the odds are that we could afford to attack in 1240 without falling into anarchy. But:

1. We've already achieved our basic objective for the Roman war, a Great Leader.

2. Our attack on Rome in 1240 would be made by five cavalry, assuming no Roman attacks on our stack--not a sure victory.

3. We already have cities, though not important ones, losing a population point a turn because so many of their citizens are serving as clowns.

4. Since we're already building railroads, twenty turns from now we should be able to re-concentrate against the Romans almost instantly, if we want.

5. The fact that the Egyptians won't yet make peace is a nasty, if probably unimportant, wild card.

6. What happens now on the Roman front hardly matters in win/loss terms, whereas anarchy when we should be pre-building factories all over our empire would be quite a blow.

So, I make peace with the Romans, getting just two workers and their WM, thanks to the odd way in which city transfers are handled. (We could get Caesaraugusta if we were allowed to top up our peace offer, but of course we aren't.) Just before this, I abandon Neapolis (a flip risk), and re-found it as Lesser Neapolis.

We have a couple of cities in disorder, but otherwise they would have starved. They should return to normal this interturn.

 

[Northern Pike]

THE FUTURE:


Shakespeare and Newton will complete as soon as you hit Enter. You can then use Darius, who's waiting in Pasargadae, to rush Adam Smith there.

Most of the items now being built in our productive cities are factory prebuilds--in particular, all colosseums and cathedrals, and the Military Academy in Chengdu. Don't let them complete, except as factories!

As soon as the workers in Egypt extend the rail line they're constructing down to Thebes, they can be shipped across to our homeland to build rails there.

A little rail-building should correct the food shortage in Susa.

Antium should be abandoned and re-founded on the same site, as an anti-flip measure. A settler is approaching it for this purpose.

We may never return to lumberjacking again, but for the record, New Persepolis and Giza have been completely lumberjacked. So has Tsingtao, except that two forests still have to be cut down. All Ulaanbaatar's plains tiles have been lumberjacked, but not its grassland tiles. Alexandria's three plains tiles most to the NE have been lumberjacked, the others not.

 

[Northern Pike]

The save:

1230 AD, end of turn