Olmecs not a major civ

[Henri Christophe]

Oh, and Dark meaning Better or Important is pretty common in Meso-American art, at least from the Yucatan - take a look at some of the Mayan frescos that have survived and the same convention appears. That means, by the way, that art that appears to show "Europeans" in Mayan art are Suspect - the lighter skin could just mean Enemies or Victims. The only depiction that I think might be evidence of Mayan- Viking contact (after 1000 CE) is one that shows a boat with visible clinkered (overlapping) planking: a distinctively Scandinavian boat-building technique not found anywhere in the Americas. The same art shows apparent 'white men', but, again, they are no different from other 'light skin tone convention' for Defeated, Less Important, or Enemy shown in other Mayan art.

do you have images of theses white invaders? I like the most see how they are.

And your leader can also be invited to join a cult of Transylvanian Vampires, remember... :S

I would like play with Vampires in this game, maybe Civ7 can have a mythological flavour.

I've tried looking up the name 3Deer for the Olmecs or Olmeca Xinacala people and I really haven't come across anything. It could just be a local thing that people called that artwork and at this point could be a local deity.
That picture of the feathered person is probably not historical but supposed to represent Quetzalcoatl that apparently is just called "Bird Man".

The name 3Deer is possible to read in this picture in the corner left up.

It is a very new archeological find, from 1975, and have few studies about. On the internet have almost nothing. Where is the Britanica Enciclopedia to help us now? XD

 

[Patine]

I would like play with Vampires in this game, maybe Civ7 can have a mythological flavour.

Maybe a spin-off game (in the vain of Alpha Centauri or Beyond Earth) but almost certainly not a numbered iteration, proper.

The name 3Deer is possible to read in this picture in the corner right up.

It is a very new archeological find, from 1975, and have few studies about. On the internet have almost nothing. Where is the Britanica Enciclopedia to help us now? XD

Reading a term from an almost entirely undeciphered script in a language with virtually no confirmed attestation? That's quite the feat. Perhaps you should apply this miraculous skill on Rapa Nui or in the Indus Valley... :S

 

[Henri Christophe]

Maybe a spin-off game (in the vain of Alpha Centauri or Beyond Earth) but almost certainly not a numbered iteration, proper.



Reading a term from an almost entirely undeciphered script in a language with virtually no confirmed attestation? That's quite the feat. Perhaps you should apply this miraculous skill on Rapa Nui or in the Indus Valley... :S

it is write in Maya style I guess. The guy who guide me in Cacaxtla show me that. I just believe in him.
In the other wall have this other king (I know is a king because it is holding a big stick) and his name is 2Men, you can read it on middle right of this picture.

By the way, look how fantastic is this creature, it is a Snake Jaguar!

I just found a link explain theses Hieroglyphs>
http://www.montero.org.mx/cacaxtla/edificio-a/casa-de-la-tierra/panel-norte

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

it is write in Maya style I guess. The guy who guide me in Cacaxtla show me that. I just believe in him.
In the other wall have this other king (I know is a king because it is holding a big stick) and his name is 2Men, you can read it on middle right of this picture.

By the way, look how fantastic is this creature, it is a Snake Jaguar!

I just found a link explain theses Hieroglyphs>
http://www.montero.org.mx/cacaxtla/edificio-a/casa-de-la-tierra/panel-norte

According to the video the mural which depicts the person called 3Deer is called "The Battle" and most likely represents a mythical battle. Either way it seems like the people of the region were more influenced by Teotihuacan and other Nahuatl people rather than the Maya. And if painted around 700 A.D. it was way past the time of the Olmec Civilization.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Why so? I mean, I can somewhat accept Vampires, but ancient and classical mythology was full of Heroes who helped save their people, introduced new inventions, etc. Cultures are formed around Heroes and their exploits. I find Heroes to be much better than Vampires, but it's only my opinion, and you're free to disagree with it. I know you're better at knowing history than me.

You've put your metaphorical finger on the crux of the difference. Ancient/Classical/Medieval mythology is full of both almost-certainly fictional heroes and also historical 'heroes' - and the stories about each type can be equally Wild. For instance, there are stories in the Alexander Romance (the tall tales made up about Alexander the Great all over south Asia) hat include Alexander going up in a balloon and under water in a 'diving bell' - Alexander the Great as a character out of Jules Verne!

It's completely a personal opinion, but I can readily accept an almost unbelievable set of stories attached to a historical character better than I can accept virtually the same kinds of stories attached to a mythical character, or one for whom there simply isn't a lot of historical basis. And I freely admit that some of the characters in question are really Borderline: The basis of the Arthurian legend may be a historical character from the 5th century, but despite a veritable Horde of English and British historians trying to nail down hard evidence, the connection remains pretty tenuous.

I can completely understand that idea. Though I also understand that they might not have been extremely overpowered and made the gameplay less fun if they based heroes on more historical characters.
Many of the already historical heroes in game are already Great Generals.

- And other Great People. For an obvious (too me, anyway) example, the Great Admiral Zheng He (Ma He) could be a 'historical' replacement for Sinbad: Zheng He made 7 voyages with fleets all over Southeast Asia, the Indian Ocean, at least as far as the African coast and possibly as far south as the north coast of Australia, and the fleet activities included trade, diplomacy, and military intervention/influence. A better fit for the Sinbad Hero effects in the game now, IMHO.

 

[Henri Christophe]

According to the video the mural which depicts the person called 3Deer is called "The Battle" and most likely represents a mythical battle. Either way it seems like the people of the region were more influenced by Teotihuacan and other Nahuatl people rather than the Maya. And if painted around 700 A.D. it was way past the time of the Olmec Civilization.

As far I understand, Olmec Xicalanca is a mix nation of Maya (Xicalanca) who lived in Teotihuacan. This video said they are Nahualt too, so somehow they are mixing of these 3 nations, I don't know how.

Is Teotihuacan nahualt people? Maybe they learn Nahual when was in Teotihuacan... Meso America history is trickster sometimes.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

According to the video the mural which depicts the person called 3Deer is called "The Battle" and most likely represents a mythical battle. Either way it seems like the people of the region were more influenced by Teotihuacan and other Nahuatl people rather than the Maya. And if painted around 700 A.D. it was way past the time of the Olmec Civilization.

What engenders confusion is naming Cacaxtla, the site of the murals, as the capital of the "Olmeca-Xicalanca" people, but that was done by a Spanish writer in the 16th century. Since the murals are dated to 400 - 650 CE and the Olmecs disappeared about 400 BCE, they are almost a 1000 years Post-Olmec and their artistic conventions are very similar to those in other Mayan artwork.
What, if any, connection they have to the Olmecs is strictly speculation without other evidence - the writing/glyphs on the murals are all Mayan, not Olmec.

 

[Patine]

As far I understand, Olmec Xicalanca is a mix nation of Maya (Xicalanca) who lived in Teotihuacan. This video said they are Nahualt too, so somehow they are mixing of these 3 nations, I don't know how.

Is Teotihuacan nahualt people? Maybe they learn Nahual when was in Teotihuacan... Meso America history is trickster sometimes.

This doesn't truly matter in terms of the ultimate point. None of these people were Olmecs, and the mural (and therefore the depiction of this cryptic leader) was made LONG after the Olmec era, and 3Deer cannot credibly be used as an Olmec leader in any real sense.

 

[Henri Christophe]

This doesn't truly matter in terms of the ultimate point. None of these people were Olmecs, and the mural (and therefore the depiction of this cryptic leader) was made LONG after the Olmec era, and 3Deer cannot credibly be used as an Olmec leader in any real sense.

At least he can be an alternative leader to Maya Civilization instead.
a very black eagle warrior grabing his imperial stick

 

[Patine]

At least he can be an alternative leader to Maya Civilization instead.
a very black eagle warrior grabing his imperial stick

A figure with no information, achievements, context, lineage, or even timeframe who was drawn WITH BLACK DYE (was almost certainly not literally Black, racially) is NOT sufficient for any Civ leader. Maybe it's time to finally stop beating this dead horse and let 3Deer, go...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

At least he can be an alternative leader to Maya Civilization instead.
a very black eagle warrior grabing his imperial stick

I don't think you understand that this is most likely Quetzalcoatl, or someone related very close to him, and most likely not a historical figure whatsoever.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I don't think you understand that this is most likely Quetzalcoatl, or someone related very close to him, and most likely not a historical figure whatsoever.

Quetzalcoalt is name of the greatest Toltec king. I guess theses feathered snake-warriors are all god-kings (as Pachacuti was). I don't think 3Deer and 2Men are both mythical, but god-kings instead.

By the way, what do you think if Quetzalcoalt come in March expansion leading the Toltec Empire?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Quetzalcoalt is name of the greatest Toltec king. I guess theses feathered snake-warriors are all god-kings (as Pachacuti was). I don't think 3Deer and 2Men are both mythical, but god-kings instead.

Most of the time god-king and being mythical can be synonymous. In the case of Pachacuti his people might have worshiped him as a god-king but we know he actually existed, and was not an actual god.
Quetzacoatl was a priest king in Toltec mythology that became a god which caught on in other Mesoamerican mythologies. I still don't see any references saying that this 3Deer himself was even a mythical ruler.

By the way, what do you think if Quetzalcoalt come in March expansion leading the Toltec Empire?

If the Toltecs were coming I'm sure they would have been in the same pack as the Maya.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Bottom Line: To include some groups as 'Civilizations' in any Civ game is going to require a Major Revision of how the game handles Civs. As long as the game design is built around Named Leaders, City Lists, and Leader Animations with voice-overs in an 'original' language, there are a lot of fascinating civilizations that simply cannot be in the game.

Olmecs and Minoan Crete are the two I miss the most.

- And, yes the Humankind game has both of them, but that game doesn't have named Leaders or anybody speaking anything other than English (or French, German, Chinese or whatever other modern language they plan to sell the game in) It remains to be seen how the Gaming Public will take to a game in which the immersion is not with a 'historical' animated cartoon speaking even more unintelligibly than Elmer Fudd or Daffy Duck, but with an Avatar representing the AI or another player. However well it works, though, I don't expect Civ to drop everything they've been doing for 20 years plus and adopt a system without Animated Leaders, languages, etc.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Olmecs and Minoan Crete are the two I miss the most.

- And, yes the Humankind game has both of them, but that game doesn't have named Leaders or anybody speaking anything other than English

I'm pretty sure it's the Myceneans that Humankind has though I think their emblematics are based of off Minoan Crete, unless they changed it.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Quetzalcoalt is name of the greatest Toltec king. I guess theses feathered snake-warriors are all god-kings (as Pachacuti was). I don't think 3Deer and 2Men are both mythical, but god-kings instead.

By the way, what do you think if Quetzalcoalt come in March expansion leading the Toltec Empire?

Let it go man...

 

[Evie]

Most of the time god-king and being mythical can be synonymous. In the case of Pachacuti his people might have worshiped him as a god-king but we know he actually existed, and was not an actual god.
Quetzacoatl was a priest king in Toltec mythology that became a god which caught on in other Mesoamerican mythologies. I still don't see any references saying that this 3Deer himself was even a mythical ruler.

Hmmmmm, I wouldn't be so sure about that. There is some reason to believe Quetzalcoatl the god and Quetzalcoatl the king may be distinct figures that were conflated after the Spanish conquest. Doesn't mean the king was not mythological or that the Toltecs should be included, just that it's possible Quetzalcoatl the king may be more in the nature of Gilgamesh (who is a repeat offender as a Civ leader) than an outright god,

The fact that worship of the feathered serpent god, Quetzalcoatl in Nahua, clearly predates the Toltecs is a major reason to suspect two figures were conflated.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The fact that worship of the feathered serpent god, Quetzalcoatl in Nahua, clearly predates the Toltecs is a major reason to suspect two figures were conflated.

Even if they were conflated it's clear he wants the mythological version as a leader.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'm pretty sure it's the Myceneans that Humankind has though I think their emblematics are based of off Minoan Crete, unless they changed it.

Sigh, you're right. I called them on using the Labys, a ceremonial Minoan symbol they used for the Mycenean Emblematic Unit, and the Knossos' red 'inverted' columns in their 'Mycenean' artwork, too.

It's an example of the problems of adding a group which has only marginally more information than the Olmecs: we don't even know if "Minos" was the name of a leader or his Title, we don't have any Cretan Unique Unit except the much later Cretan Archers. What we do have is a potential Emblematic Quarter, the Palace that shows up in every Minoan settlement as the major administrative, royal, religious and food storage point, and the Bull Dancers as a potential Religious/cultural phenomena (Bull Ring Quarter?). And we can put together a City List, only because the Greeks re-used most of the Cretan settlement names.

 

[Evie]

I mean as far as I can see you brought up Quetzalcoatl as your take on who was in that picture.

I...am not sold on that reading. Putting aside that it's a mayan painting (so best case scenario that's Kukulkan, not Quetzalcoatl), the Mayan like most mesoamerican people traditionally represented that deity as a feathered serpent , not a man. It's kind of the deity's defining trait. That painting also predates the Toltecs, as I understand it.

If anything, while Henri is also off about his civilizations (eagle warriors are aztecs, not maya), the notion that this is a man dressed in a feathered outfit does seem more in line with what we know, as people in fesrhered outfit are found in art from Mesoamerica to the Mississippi Moundbuilders.