1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

OMG I just realized something amazing...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Glassmage, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,623
    Location:
    USA
    If units take longer to die, this mean that you can actually bring workers to build Forts and Great Generals' Citadels on captured enemy border city. These improvements make more sense AND are actually useful. :D Trench warfare so fun! How do you guys think this more hp per unit will affect warfare? Before we just go in, focus fire, then push to capital. Now it requires more work.
     
  2. GeoModder

    GeoModder Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    7,512
    Or even better, a defender builds/creates those on HIS border, so no border city can be captured. ;)
     
  3. GenjiKhan

    GenjiKhan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,117
    Citadels are useful,even now,if you plan their position to block the advance of enemy's waves or using them to weaken a stronger army than you .
     
  4. tofofnts

    tofofnts Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2012
    Messages:
    192
    I'm hoping this will create long lines of units which change slowly, kinda like WWI
     
  5. Brimstone

    Brimstone Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Springfield, IL
    Be careful what you wish for. I predict...quagmire with endless swapping units back and forth alla 1UPT. It appears all units will be difficult to kill, 3 strikes or more with units of equal strength.

    Doesn't sound like fun to me and the short comings of 1UPT will become more apparent while trying to capture a city.

    I hope I'm wrong.
     
  6. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,376
    Great point!

    Forts and citadels work perfectly if you can defend longer. I'm sure the new machinegun units will even increase this due to their defensive nature.
     
  7. Ajuga

    Ajuga Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    Messages:
    303
    I think that this will make domination victories a lot harder though.
    If cities get the same boost, they will also take longer to take.
     
  8. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,376
    Well, that's the question ofcourse. But domination should be harder, it's the easiest victory atm.
     
  9. AriochIV

    AriochIV Analyst

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,961
    Location:
    San Jose, California
    Seems to me that's much more like real combat -- a damaged unit can retreat from the line instead of being destroyed, but only if there's a healthy unit in reserve to replace it on the line -- so having a larger force will actually mean something. Combat won't be "endless" unless damaged units can heal as fast as they are being damaged, and that doesn't seem very likely, but it may take some combined arms effort to breach the enemy's lines. And when you do, his damaged units will be exposed.

    Granted that it's questionable whether the AI will be able to competently manage such a system to greatest effect, but it sounds promising to me.
     
  10. Stefanskantine

    Stefanskantine Angry Partisan

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2003
    Messages:
    242
    Location:
    Busan, ROK

    I agree, it has potential to be interesting if they balance it right. 2 lines of units fighting a long war of attrition, until a breakout or flanking maneuver exposes the wounded in the rear. Sounds like most real wars to me.
     
  11. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,376
    Flanking will be a much bigger factor now. And the same for artillery and air strikes, these are the only ways to break the enemy line directly.

    I hope the AI can cope. A simple melee first, ranged second, will go a long way with this setup. And that's simple enough right... Did anyone else just think about camikaze catapults :lol:
     
  12. Civsassin

    Civsassin Immortal

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    830
    Location:
    Virginia Beach
    War will be much more difficult in the early game with siege and ranged units only effective up to two tiles away. Especially for cities that are surrounded by hills or have mountain or other terrain screens. The Honor tree, and the bonuses it provides, will become much more significant.
     
  13. CivilizedPlayer

    CivilizedPlayer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    222
    Am I the only one who thinks the 100 HP system is being overanalyzed and/or overhyped, in terms of the way it will lengthen combat? It's definitely a good thing, and I'm a fan of it. I look forward to longer sieges, and less units being completely wiped out. However, the difference is a matter of units taking 3-4 hits to kill, as opposed to the current 2-3 (assuming no ranged attacks). That doesn't strike me as a major game-changer that will revolutionize the combat and completely force me to rethink how I attack an enemy.

    Of course, there are other changes to combat that will change a lot. For one, I heard Ed Beach mention that siege weapons will now be crucial to capturing cities, while regular ranged units will be less effective. I look forward to that, for sure. And I look forward to the fact that the 100 HP system means that minimum damage dealt is a lot less, making a spearman much less effective against a tank. However, that change will actually speed up combat, since it will be easier for a more advanced army to steamroll an outdated one.
     
  14. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    4,095
    I already build Citadels at the border of captured cities if I'm going to have trouble holding them otherwise. Normally if I've been able to capture a city in the first place, there aren't enough enemy units immediately available to prevent it. I've never tried building forts or found that I need to.
     
  15. CTH

    CTH Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    Göteborg, Sweden
    I predict that the biggest change will not be in going from 2 hits to 4 hits but rather that plenty of weaker units will survive an attack from a stronger one, the 1 hit going to 2 hits is much more significant as you can retreat that unit or retaliate (with for example a ranged unit vs a melee unit).
     
  16. Haig

    Haig Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,723
    Location:
    Finland
    Artillery units wont be as effective against land units
    anymore, more important as siege tools and softening
    enemy before land attack.
    Hello bayonet charge! ;)
     
  17. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    821
    Location:
    Germany
    It's a good thing that advanced units will have an easier time to destroy outdated units.

    But 3-4 hits to kill could be a bad idea because
    a) wrong decisions don't get punished as much as before
    b) keeping units alive will be much easier which leads to a critical mass of highly promoted units and
    c) I doubt that the AI knows how to focus fire properly.

    It's possible that combat will be much easier. I hope I'm wrong.:/
     
  18. Montov

    Montov Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    707
    I think an advantage in numbers at the frontline will be more important with tougher units. AI at higher levels do generally have more units than the human (because of the bonuses), but when you can kill the incoming units the turn they arrived in range, it isnt a big problem. 1UPT limits the amount you can bring directly to the frontline, but with tougher units you (or the AI) can overwhelm the opponent with numbers.

    That's a good change.
     
  19. Deggial

    Deggial Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    941
    Location:
    Germany
    At least this is something, I got the impression the AI can do already! I lost many units due to concentrated attacks so far. The AI loves to use cavalry (retreating after attack) an fighters for this.

    Of course, there has to be a *supremacy in numbers* for it - and this will be even more crucial in G&K, with more fights needed to kill a unit!
    As the player usually fights short-handed in higher difficulty levels, I expect them to become harder with the expansion.
     
  20. AriochIV

    AriochIV Analyst

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,961
    Location:
    San Jose, California
    The AI is halfway decent at this, but what it lacks is appropriate target selection; it will focus fire on your cavalry (which is no threat to city you're attacking) and leave the cannon and infantry which are about to assault the city untouched. I would guess this is because the tactical AI simply tries to focus on killing the most vulernable unit, which is often a damaged unit or one that doesn't receive defensive bonuses. This limits the usefulness of cavalry and armor against ranged units to decoys, as they will almost always draw an undue amount of attention from AI guns.

    More health will definitely improve the weight of numbers, but in order to make full use of this, the AI will need to be taught to value the survival of its own units, which it currently does not seem to value (often leaving a damaged unit under ranged fire in place indefinitely until it is killed, and often sacrifing a more expensive unit to finish off a damaged, cheaper unit). In particular, it will need to learn how to shuffle units around in tight 1UPT space, without having them run off in the wrong direction or blunder directly into killing zones. That, I suspect, will be quite a challenge if they don't ease the 1UPT rules somehow.
     

Share This Page