On Duterte

[Hygro]

Never have I seen anyone take drugs who didn't want to take them. It's incredibly hard to convince someone to take drugs if they aren't already seeking the experience. It takes years and it comes from friendship, not commerce, and learning that there's a safe way to do them, and times to take them and more times to not take them. The sellers are providing buyers with what the buyers want.

Duterte is popular therefore good? That rests on the assumption that people are right with the information they have. That same logic extends to the buyers of drugs. The buyers think the drugs are good, ergo they are good. If you disagree with that logic, and you think you might know better about someone else than they do about themselves, then you extend that logic the other direction and know that murdering people is bad.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Actually, I think most people are disgusted with themselves when they become addicted, but by then it becomes a more and more difficult spiral to escape. I really hate smoking cigarettes and I have it down to a handful a day, won't do it in the house, but this is the result of years and repeated attempts to quit. I can't imagine if it were heroin or alcohol, I'd probably be dead.

 

[Hygro]

Actually, I think most people are disgusted with themselves when they become addicted, but by then it becomes a more and more difficult spiral to escape. I really hate smoking cigarettes and I have it down to a handful a day, won't do it in the house, but this is the result of years and repeated attempts to quit. I can't imagine if it were heroin or alcohol, I'd probably be dead.

We gotta deal with the degree of self-loathing people suffer in our alien, mechanistic world. Drugs help some of those people short and longterm (hence, psychiatry as A Thing), and briefly alleviate for a long term cost for others (opiate addiction), and aren't a factor for many, many more.

 

[sophie]

Actually, I think most people are disgusted with themselves when they become addicted, but by then it becomes a more and more difficult spiral to escape. I really hate smoking cigarettes and I have it down to a handful a day, won't do it in the house, but this is the result of years and repeated attempts to quit. I can't imagine if it were heroin or alcohol, I'd probably be dead.

But you wanted to smoke cigarettes when you started, right? Even if it was a peer pressure kind of situation, at the end of the day, you're the one who made the conscious decision to smoke that first cigarette. And the second. And the third.

I agree that eventually people come to a point where they want to quit but don't have the resources, support structures, or willpower to do it themselves. With hard drugs like heroin and meth it's even harder because our society has heavily stigmatized the act and written off its practitioners as degenerates, so it becomes hard even to admit that you're addicted, and harder still to find people willing to help and not just have you thrown in jail. It's why I think the better solution to de-stigmatize and provide people with the help they need

 

[Berzerker]

Actually, I think most people are disgusted with themselves when they become addicted, but by then it becomes a more and more difficult spiral to escape. I really hate smoking cigarettes and I have it down to a handful a day, won't do it in the house, but this is the result of years and repeated attempts to quit. I can't imagine if it were heroin or alcohol, I'd probably be dead.

I've used all sorts of drugs and the only one I'd say got me addicted was tobacco. But I never injected anything or used heroin and I've heard former heroin addicts claim giving up the cigarettes was harder. Doc told me to quit smoking (duh) and prescribed me Chantix. It worked, no relapses, no noticeable side effects. I didn't quite feel the same level of "need", it took enough of the 'edge' off so I could resist the temptation.

Course when I see their ads nowadays the list of side effects keeps growing , but I used it the bare minimum. Some people are using it for months while I used it maybe 12-14 days and quit asap once the urge weakened. And yet some people can smoke a cigarette every once in a while, or even one a day without graduating to a pack or two. The ability to moderate truly is a virtue

If you're down to a few a day, congrats. Yer close enough to quit, it'd be a nice Christmas present for you and yours. Frankly I thought I'd feel better but its been almost a decade and I dont notice any improvements in my health. Course my health wasn't suffering...yet. But even if I avoid cancer the damage will likely show up with breathing complications, heart disease or stroke.

One of my buddies (mid 60s) had a heart attack recently, heavy smoker, not the best of diets, overweight, not much exercise... His doc told him the tobacco was the main culprit. He quit smoking. Being laid up for 3 weeks made it easier, my dad had a stroke and quit smoking thanks to an extended stay in the hospital.

 

[CavLancer]

You keep ignoring arguments and responding only with petty ad hominems, or phrases completely irrelevant to the discussion.







I doubt you realize how often you repeat yourself, just a little heads-up. So many good points have been made ITT as to how a short-term crackdown can never fix the roots of a problem like drug addiction, yet you keep ignoring those answers and spouting your "prices for meth have increased 9x!" number, oblivious to the fact that drugs are than meth exit and can be readily abused.

Doesn't change the fact that they are up 9X. Some points have to be repeated because folks don't seem to get it or don't want to. Take for instance when I say, "The war is being won." Well, what does that entail? A war won is over. Meth has been taken out of the society. My kids can go to school safely. People say they never heard of drugs being dealt in school, just go to the local police station and ask them. Likely they've heard of it. My kids are as innocent as they come, and things are happening which will make their lives safer.

 

[CavLancer]

We can't put a dollar value on human life, the two concepts are apples and snorkels. That said, human life has inherent value, and that value is greater than what they might do to their bodies or what contrived rules we construct against what trade is illicit. But at what point does that illicit trade endanger the lives of non-participants, that's the real problem, the rub that's conveniently omitted from arguments against punishment for drug offenses. If every bale of marijuana, every bundle of cocaine, every package of meth, comes at the cost of someone's suffering, worse, deaths, then every dollar one spends into illicit trade contributes to that suffering and death. Further, consumers of illicit substances cause suffering to those around them.

Drugs aren't produced in a cultural vacuum. Every participant adversely affects non-participants, to the extent of, sometimes, death. But if one runs about killing people, particularly without trial, they become that instrument of death which is just as bad as those in organized crime who start the chain. So, Duterte isn't some "good guy", because the good guy, realizing the problem, and in his effort to reduce suffering, would put forth the extra effort to be sure he is not in the same position as the murderers and those who cause suffering.

Duterte is a murderer. He has admitted it, he has in the past killed people without trial. But then, so do we, when we send cruise missiles at some factory, or inadvertently some school or hospital, we pay for that, we contribute to that, we share that shame. We can try to improve our methods, we can try to be more precise in our self defense, but I fear innocent people will always be caught in the middle. Is that the fault of those who respond or those who perpetrate the problem? It probably falls in the laps of those who perpetrate the problem, I think. At least we'd like to think that way.

There's no real justice on Earth, in the end. This is all just what we make it. Belief in God places a higher order on judgement and justice, but here, between humans on Earth, there's no real finality in justice, only what contrived value we place in justice. So should we be stunned to inactivity because nothing we do is just, because all are ultimately unrighteous? No. That's not the answer either. The answer, tragically, is that we're all doing precisely what we should be doing, be it lawful or unlawful, good or bad. That seems, however, to legitimize murder, and murder is against not only our laws but God's laws.

We're certainly in a pickle, aren't we. To point to transgressions of another is to make less of our own transgressions. We need order to survive. All order we imagine between each other is constructed. Free will becomes the right to make bad decisions.

Yes, people, hopefully the vast majority of whom are pushers, are being shot down. Its taking drugs off the streets and reducing crime. Crime is way down. Once this war is won meth will be g o n e. The war can then end. The war on drugs can end. Think about that Apple. No more deaths from meth use, no more pushers shot, the whole damn thing o v e r. Now I know that people being people there is always potential for more attempts to bring them in, vigilance is the price of freedom and all that. Meth will be off the streets, out of hidden places in homes, dark corners. Addicts needing money to buy their next fix will no longer exist, and the violent crimes they commit upon the innocent will be finished. Sounds like the 1950s to me. A bygone era. A new safer world for kids to go through their teenage years. Sounds good!

Duterte is a murderer, well okay. So are pushers, Duterte is just faster about it. Justice, hah! Justice is all about protecting the guilty for money. Bible calls it a dirty rag. People largely suck. Not all, I've found a few whom I would not say they are good but I'd say, 'Bob doesn't suck', or whoever. Sure, shooting pushers in the streets sucks. Here, its what passes for justice. You say there is no justice on this Earth, well okay. We do our best for sucking so bad.

"To point to transgressions of another is to make less of our own transgressions." I gotta say Apple, this is feel good BS. True sometimes, but nevertheless. The rest of your post is much better. If your whole post was stuff like this I wouldn't bother with it, but your post is one of the best thought out here.

Yes, it is a pickle. To shoot a pusher or no? In many US cities they deal openly on the streets. They take over rest areas on highways and people pull in to buy drugs. God help you if you innocently drive in their rest area with your family in the car. Their stuff goes from their hands out to supply addicts and make new ones. Gotta say, I'm with Diuterte on this one. If I could, if it were my country, I'd say not addicts however, and none other than pushers.

 

[CavLancer]

Never have I seen anyone take drugs who didn't want to take them. It's incredibly hard to convince someone to take drugs if they aren't already seeking the experience. It takes years and it comes from friendship, not commerce, and learning that there's a safe way to do them, and times to take them and more times to not take them. The sellers are providing buyers with what the buyers want.

Duterte is popular therefore good? That rests on the assumption that people are right with the information they have. That same logic extends to the buyers of drugs. The buyers think the drugs are good, ergo they are good. If you disagree with that logic, and you think you might know better about someone else than they do about themselves, then you extend that logic the other direction and know that murdering people is bad.

People do crazy crap when they are young and in rebellion. They are supposed to go nuts, it propagates the species. I spend hours upon hours teaching my six year old boy who is challenged to count to 20. Its was a mission in life until he pulled it off the other day and got a toy car. All these efforts on my and my wife's part can be destroyed in 5 minutes if as a teenager he decides, to impress moronic friends or whatever, to take meth, and likes it too much. Better it doesn't exist in their environment and he instead jumps real high or some such look at me crap. So efforts to take drugs out of the environment have always gotten my support. They have never worked however, but this is working. As carljung likes me to point out, the stuff costs 9X what it did. This is pricing a lot of stupid kids, like most of us where, out of the market, and that's a very good thing. May the price rise forever.

 

[CavLancer]

Actually, I think most people are disgusted with themselves when they become addicted, but by then it becomes a more and more difficult spiral to escape. I really hate smoking cigarettes and I have it down to a handful a day, won't do it in the house, but this is the result of years and repeated attempts to quit. I can't imagine if it were heroin or alcohol, I'd probably be dead.

Good job on getting down so far. I fought this fight as well, back when cigarette companies were putting in more stuff to make the things more addictive. I cut cravings with vitamin C and over the counter pain killers. Whatever works, quit. Its worth it.

 

[shadowplay]

You mean you didn't go around blowing away the people selling cigarettes?

 

[CavLancer]

No. It's against the law.

 

[Senethro]

For greatest accuracy imagine the above said with a ghastly smirk, reeking of hypocrisy.

 

[Berzerker]

Doesn't change the fact that they are up 9X. Some points have to be repeated because folks don't seem to get it or don't want to. Take for instance when I say, "The war is being won." Well, what does that entail? A war won is over. Meth has been taken out of the society. My kids can go to school safely. People say they never heard of drugs being dealt in school, just go to the local police station and ask them. Likely they've heard of it. My kids are as innocent as they come, and things are happening which will make their lives safer.

Oh, drugs were available in HS, they just weren't being "pushed". I never saw anyone walking around trying to get children to buy, it was discreet and the buyers sought out the dealers. Did someone at your kids' school actually try to sell them meth? "Thanks, but I'm not interested" wont work?

I doubt your country will become another Mexico or Colombia due to geography but there will be a black market response to these efforts. What is El Presidente going to do if minors are recruited en masse into the drug trade? Thats what happened here in the mid 80s because of Reagan's drug war. We saw a crime wave and it was driven by children in response to harsher punishments for adults. Of course the politicians who created the mess started demanding we treat children as adults, I imagine that will be where your drug war is headed.

But who knows, I dont keep tabs on China's drug war and they're very harsh too. Threatening death upon dealers (and users) will certainly motivate them to quit, I'm just not impressed by the hypocrisy of a Fentanyl popping psycho getting upset at people for using speed. Now I dont blame him for wanting to clean up the corruption and crime associated with the black market, but that was created by the drug war, not the drug.

 

[CavLancer]

You really think meth is innocent stuff then Bz?

 

[Berzerker]

You really think meth is innocent stuff then Bz?

Innocent of what? Its a drug... drugs have their pros and cons. It is "innocent" of causing govt corruption and black market crime in your country, those were caused by people who want the drug banned. You posted images of a few people who were addicted, most likely via injection. And not just addicted, but to the point they're virtually on a permanent fast. That sounds to me like people addicted to meth with an eating disorder who dont need help shedding a few more pounds. Is it a coincidence they were younger white females? Millions of people have used the drug without those results. The forum rules probably wont allow me to make a list of the pros and cons, drugs are bad, mkay... But I believe it is immoral to hold millions of people accountable for the "few".

I dont know if the people who produce and sell booze or tobacco feel guilty for alcoholism and cancer, but I'd "blame" them far less than the person who used their drugs - and I used them both far too much. I lost loved ones to alcoholism and a friend is losing their kid to it now so I understand the desire to remove the temptation, but I cant support a war against the drug dealers. It aint their fault some people get addicted. Btw, here in the USA we banned meth but we have a variety of fine pharmaceuticals for sale that will perk you up just fine. Maybe El Presidente can get some from his doc to counter the drowsiness from his painkillers.

 

[Perfection]

That a fact? Learn something new every day. I think Perfection that maybe the Philippine people decided to fight fire with fire because while he is no drug dealing scum, he is a tough guy. Kind of like Brando in The Godfather. Didn't mind breaking the law too much but would not allow drug dealing.

I don't pretend to know what is best for the Philippine people. What I do believe is that it is dangerous to call people scum. People who aren't scum can have their lives destroyed because they were mislabeled.

 

[Arwon]

Defending this is grotesque apologia for indiscriminate mass murder. Duterte has sanctioned the killing of thousands of people (hell in one case "millions") and he's created an environment where anyone can be murdered. He's published "kill lists" including judges, elected officials and law enforcement, and he has entirely blocked any sort of accountability or scrutiny of what he has unleashed including shutting down a senate inquiry into the murders.

There's honestly no way the vast majority of the victims aren't ordinary people. You're a willing dupe for a thuggish murderer and for death squads, CL.

 

[Senethro]

Its also kind of disappointing how he promises that he'd join an armed resistance movement only if this happened in America and it was white children getting killed.

 

[Arwon]

Oh and while we're at the Duterte has an incredibly callous attitude to addiction. Among other things he's explicitly advocated the murder of people with addiction problems saying:

Hitler massacred three million Jews … there’s three million drug addicts. There are. I’d be happy to slaughter them.

And that methamphetamine use makes people “no longer viable as human beings in this planet”

If you think this wave of murderous terror is confined to evil moustache twirling drug lords you're a naive or willfully ignorant fool.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

He's a drug addict. Once you're an addict, you might be a recovering addict, but you're always an addict.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/duterte-painkiller-draws-concern-philippines-084005965.html