On Falun Gong

[colontos]

And are those extremist Muslims morally inferior to Chinese police who drag Falun Gong members behind cars? Let's 'objectively' measure the human cost of Chinese suppression of religion and free speech.

 

[Jeff Yu]

I believe adultory is severly punished in all three big religions. Islam isn't going to be your whipping boy.

As you can see from my posts, I'll condemn any religion's practices if they're stupid. That said, which of the other three big religions still punish adultery by stoning? In the 21st century, mind you?

 

[Azadre]

I would like to state once and for all, either stop using my religion as an example and use your own, or don't bother posting comparisons. I am sick of these negative lies being spread.

 

[Jeff Yu]

I would like to state once and for all, either stop using my religion as an example and use your own, or don't bother posting comparisons. I am sick of these negative lies being spread.

Well, I don't have my own religion, so the only ones I can compare are other people's. But for your sake, I'll stop using Islam as an example in this thread.

 

[punkbass2000]

Moral relativity, eh? I suppose you think that all cultural and religious values are equal then, and none are better than others?

Yes.

If so, I suppose Muslims are perfectly free to murder raped women, because they believe that doing so is better than allowing her to live in sin?

No. This infringes upon her rights as an individual.

Some of the Muslim girls might even be brainwashed enough that they themselves think they're in sin after rape. Therefore it's ok, right?

In this case, yes. If the female believes she is better off dead than she should be free to die by the method of her choice. As for your characterization of "brainwashed", that is a rather subjective comment. If you're going to run around accusing anyone who disagrees with you as being "brainwashed" then I think you're placing yourself above others.

Female genital mutilation is also fine then, because it prevents girls from touching themselves, which angers God. By being a Jew, that person is angering Allah, therefore Muslims believe that they're doing justice by suicide bombing them.

Again, infringing upon others is about as wrong as anything, IMO.

Of course my beliefs supercede theirs.

I will not continue a discussion with someone who believes this. You realize the irony here, don't you?

Unlike bullcrap metaphysical religious and spiritual harm,

To you it is bullcrap. Not to others.

the objective effects of such things can be measured and shown, namely an anemic 9-year old Jehovah's Witness dying of blood loss.

So only things that are quantifiable are important?

 

[luiz]

Yep, they are weird. But then again most, if not all, religions seem weird to me.
They also appear to be harmless, even with their rhetoric against interracial marriage.

The chinese people are not forced to feel sympathetic to them, but they are forced by basic human decency to protest against the brutality of the CCP dictatorship against a religion that poses no threat whatsoever.

 

[colontos]

Azadre, a discussion of Islam isn't off-limits just because its your religion, sorry. People can use whatever examples they want. Things like that have happened in extremist Muslim societies, whether you like it or not. Sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[Yom]

They should be allowed to believe what they believe. That said, let me quote Chris Rock (on OJ Simpson). "Now, I'm not saying that [they] should kill [them], but I understand."


Those members who advocate (and participate in) revolting against the governmen, on the other hand, have no legal ground to stand on. Those members should be prosecuted and imprisoned immediately.

 

[Cheetah]

Jeff: What kind of revolts are we talking about?

 

[King Alexander]

First, let me state that I don't have something against a particular religion, but IF they support things that're against my laws, I'll say it.
This time, I won't name certain religions, so I can make myself more clear.
*I altered the post a bit*

@X Religion: Yes they are, they're damned wrong, and a barbaric practice, especially when parents make decisions on behalf of minors and prevent children from recieving blood treatments that could save their lives.

Not helping a juvenile in aid, can get an adult prosecuted to a court, because he's RESPONSIBLE for the child, and because the state protects ANY juvenile, regardless of heritage or political/religion beliefs of it's parents.

At least, when and IF a case is made known(most times, they just keep their children in the privacy of their home), a district attorney/police will intervene and take the child to get help.

Moral relativity, eh? I suppose you think that all cultural and religious values are equal then, and none are better than others?

Just a comment on this: religious values ARE NOT equal with our Constitution: nothing supercedes it.

X Religion:... are perfectly free to murder raped women, because they believe that doing so is better than allowing her to live in sin?

No, they aren't: here they'll go to jail if they do such a thing.

Female genital mutilation is also fine then, because it prevents girls from touching themselves, which angers God.

When I hear cases reffering to this, I'm really tempted to support the death penalty.

By being an X-religionist, that person is angering the X-God, therefore X-religionists believe that they're doing justice by suicide bombing them.

Of course not.

 

[stratego]

See, I told you that Falun Gong were secret Nazis, and someone in the Taiwanese's guys thread didn't believe me. You think Stratego is always joking, but the truth is whatever Stratego says has layers of meaning

Also an attempt at overthrowing the government is high treason.

I wonder what would people think if Falun Gong was officially sponsored by the CCP. Would people still treat them as the good guys who meditate, or would they condemn them because they're supported by the CCP.

 

[Azadre]

Azadre, a discussion of Islam isn't off-limits just because its your religion, sorry. People can use whatever examples they want. Things like that have happened in extremist Muslim societies, whether you like it or not. Sometimes the truth hurts.

It isn't right. I am not constantly using the KKK or IRA to define Christianity. I am not using the results in Bosnia to judge Christianity. It's not my place. It's not my faith. So don't use my religion just as a means of slandering it.

 

[stratego]

I too wish people would stop using Islam as the scapegoat and model of everything bad. There are some crazy people, but Islam in general does not promote those things. These crazy believes could be found in extremists of every religion or even non-religion.

But even with that said, I do not waive my right to make fun of any practice of ANY religion or non-religion if I find them to be ridulous.

 

[Jeff Yu]

Jeff: What kind of revolts are we talking about?

Falun Gong supports have taken to adopting Tiananmen-style protests, trying to blockade government buildings, including some right in Beijing, and staging mass demonstrations. As I've said, Li Hongzhi has been telling his followers that Falun Gong will made them immune to beatings and bullets. The guy has been cultivating a god-like image of himself, and then abusing his position of power to brainwash his followers into thinking they're invincible, and then telling to them to resist a government in a country that doesn't have political rights and takes a very harsh view on cults. I merely think the Falun Gong followers are whackos, but boy do I hate Li Hongzhi.

 

[Goober]

IMO, Falun Gong is just some strange Religious Sect that has beliefs that are, to me, weird, and I know almost nothing about them, except that the Chinese Government seems to take pleasure in prosecuting them for some reason.

Wait, what's the point of this thread? I am pretty sure that everyone knew already that Falun Gong had unusual beliefs, and that the Chinese Government likes to prosecute them.

 

[stratego]

I think the point of the thread to explain why the average Chinese citizen doesn't care when the CCP persecutes Nazis.

 

[Goober]

Oh. Well, knowing Chinese propaganda, they probably think that the Falun Gong are Klingons here to take them to their spaceship, and toture them or something. To be honest, I don't thinkl the majority of the people of the world really care.

 

[silver 2039]

I think the point of the thread to explain why the average Chinese citizen doesn't care when the CCP persecutes Nazis.

Thats a Hindu swastika not a Nazi one. And for the ignorant masses the swastika is a Hindu symbol for good luck. A notable diffrence between the Hindu and Nazi swastikas is that the Nazi swastika is tilted on a angle while the Hindu one is straight.

 

[Uiler]

The real reason why the Communist government suppresses the Falun Gong (I'm sure I've forgotten most of them. But these are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head):

The Yellow Scarves Sect (a Taoist sect blamed for the fall of the Han dynasty). You know, given the infamous nature of this sect in Chinese history you'd think the Falun Gong members would know better to go to demonstrations <b>wearing yellow scarves</b>. It's like I don't know, going to a demonstration dressed like a Nazi (trust me, Chinese have long memories. Anyone who's read Three Kingdoms, and that's everyone in China, wil know the significance of Yellow Scarves). It's just asking for trouble...Hey, let's dress exactly like the most famous religious sect in Chinese history which is held directly responsible for the fall of the Han dynasty. I'm not sure whether they're just stupid, or if this is deliberate...I do notice all the accounts in the Western media completely miss the significance of yellow scarves:

"Zhang Jue began to organize his disciples. He established thirty-six circuits, the larger with ten thousand or more members, the smaller with about half that number. Each circuit had its chief who took the military title of General. They talked wildly of the death of the blue heaven and the setting up of the golden one; they said a new cycle was beginning and would bring universal good fortune to all members; and they persuaded people to chalk the symbols for the first year of the new cycle on the main door of their dwellings.

With the growth of the number of his supporters grew also the ambition of Zhang Jue. The Wise and Worthy Master dreamed of empire. One of his partisans, Ma Yuanyi, was sent bearing gifts to gain the support of the eunuchs within the Palace.

To his brothers Zhang Jue said, "For schemes like ours always the most difficult part is to gain the popular favor. But that is already ours. Such an opportunity must not pass."

And they began to prepare. Many yellow flags and banners were made, and a day was chosen for the uprising. Then Zhang Jue wrote letters to Eunuch Feng Xu* and sent them by one of his followers, Tang Zhou, who alas! betrayed his trust and reported the plot to the court. The Emperor summoned the trusty Regent Marshal He Jin and bade him look to the issue. Ma Yuanyi was at once taken and beheaded. Feng Xu and many others were cast into prison.

The plot having thus become known, the Zhang brothers were forced at once to take the field. They took up grandiose titles: Zhang Jue the Lord of Heaven, Zhang Ba the Lord of Earth, and Zhang Lian the Lord of Human. And in these names they put forth this manifesto:

"The good fortune of the Han is exhausted, and the Wise and Worthy Man has appeared. Discern the will of Heaven, O ye people, and walk in the way of righteousness, whereby alone ye may attain to peace."

Support was not lacking. On every side people bound their heads with yellow scarves and joined the army of the rebel Zhang Jue, so that soon his strength was nearly half a million strong, and the official troops melted away at a whisper of his coming.

Regent Marshal and Guardian of the Throne, He Jin, memorialized for general preparations against the Yellow Scarves, and an edict called upon everyone to fight against the rebels. In the meantime, three Imperial Commanders---Lu Zhi, Huangfu Song, and Zhu Jun---marched against them in three directions with veteran soldiers."

The Ming Sect:

http://www.spcnet.tv/article_mingcult.shtml

In later generations Mani followers in China adapted the teachings of Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism, slowly forming a distinct form of Manichaeism with Chinese characteristics. It was during this period that the Mani Cult was named Ming Cult by its Chinese followers. Temples were erected in the style of Buddhist monasteries in order to avoid trouble. The temple on Huabiaoshan in Quanzhou City, Jinjiang Prefecture in Fujian Province is the only remaining Mani Temple in the world.

The Ming Cult was infamous for its' rebellious nature, during the Latter Liang dynasty (907-923). The Ming Cult started the Yi Mu Rebellion. During the Northern Song dynasty the Ming Cult was involved in many rebellious activities, especially in the South-Eastern provinces of Jiangsu, Zhejiang and Fujian. The Ming Cult had a short revival during the Yuan dynasty when many people joined their ranks to fight the Mongolian government, but after the founding of the Ming dynasty in 1368, the cult slowly disappeared and eventually ceased to exist.

The White Lotus Sect->Boxer Rebellion:

The White Lotus reemerged in the late 18th century in the form of an inspired Chinese movement to overthrow the Ch’ing dynasty, led by Wang Lun, a master of martial arts and herbal medicine. The movements arose in the mountainous region that separates Sichuan province from Hubei and Shaanxi provinces in central China as tax protests. The White Lotus led impoverished settlers into the movements, promising personal salvation in return for their loyalty. Beginning as tax protests, the eventual rebellion gained growing support and sympathy from many citizens. The rebellion grew in number and power and eventually, into a serious concern for the government.

Ho-shen, a corrupt general, was sent by the Emperor Qianlong (Ch'ien-lung) (reigned 1711–99) to quell the uprising. Surprisingly, the ill-organized rebels managed to defeat the presumably inadequate and inefficient imperial forces. Ho-shen had been known to embezzle funds and resources earmarked for the defeat of the White Lotus- and thus accounted for his defeat. Upon assuming effective power in 1799, Emperor Jiaqing (Chia Ch’ing) (reigned 1796–1820) disposed of Ho-shen and gave support to the efforts of more vigorous Manchu commanders as a way of restoring discipline and morale.

A systematic program of pacification followed in which the populace was resettled in hundreds of stockaded villages and organized into militia. In its last stage, the Qing suppression policy combined pursuit and extermination of rebel guerrilla bands with a program of amnesty for deserters. The rebellion came to an end in 1804. A decree from the Emperor Tao Kuang admitted, "…it was extortion by local officials that goaded the people into rebellion…"

Using the arrest of sectarian members as a threat, local officials and police extorted money from people. Actual participation in sect activities had no impact on an arrest; whether or not monetary demands were met, however, did.

The end of the White Lotus Rebellion in 1804 also brought an end to the myth of military invincibility of the Manchu, perhaps contributing to the greater frequency of rebellions in the 19th century.

The White Lotus would again make an appearance in the 1890s. A branch sect called the I Ho Ch’uan (Fists in the Name of Harmony and Justice) began a serious anti- foreigner rebellion in response to the humiliations suffered by China at the hands of European and American powers. The Europeans would later call this band of rebels the Boxers.

The Five Pecks of Rice sect:

Taoist sect during the fall of Han. Founded a theocratic state. Was eventually defeated and destroyed by Cao Cao.

The Taiping Rebellion:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/TAIPING.HTM

From a military standpoint, the rebellion got off to an impressive start. The army itself was uncannily disciplined; after elaborate initiation rituals, Taiping believers became fanatically disciplined and devoted soldiers, willing to die without hesitation in God's cause against demonic forces. The army of the Taipings roared northward through the central Yangtze valley to Nanking. In many ways, however, this dramatic progress of the Taipings was no progress at all and explains why they lost so easily despite their impressive start. The central reason they advanced so quickly was that they avoided large urban centers and so encountered little resistance. When they conquered a territory, they made no effort to consolidate the conquest by setting up an administrative mechanism, but instead roared on northwards. There was no room for disagreement in the military hierarchy; not only did the Heavenly King gain his authority directly from God, but the military generals themselves claimed to be guided by God the Father in a series of visions. There was little room, then, for serious strategic thinking in this environment.

The Taipings occupied Nanking in March of 1853; they renamed the city, T'ien-ching, or "Heavenly Capital." From T'ien-ching, they attacked Beijing, but their army, after making rapid progress north, was defeated. For the next ten years, the Taipings occupied themselves with conquering Western territories and fighting continuously to maintain their territory in the central Yangtze valley. The rebellion swung from one side to another, now a defeat, now a victory, now a defeat.

 

[Uiler]

On the issue of Yellow Scarves. To make it even worse, Falun Gong's colour is Yellow (hence the popularity of Yellow Scarves). The colour of Communist China is Red. Guess *why* the Yellow Scarves chose yellow in the first place? The colour of Han was Red. According to the Chinese cycle of elements, the Red Fire of Han was to replaced by the Yellow Earth. Ergo, the Yellow Scarves. There was a prophecy etc. etc. How important this is in the Communist response, probably depends on how superstitious they are. If the colour yellow was chosen deliberately to annoy the Communists then yes, the leader of the Falun Gong must be deliberately baiting the Communists. On the other hand it could just be a coincidence. But really they really stop the followers in demonstrations wearing Yellow Scarves. In the Chinese mind, Yellow Scarves is very strongly associated with a Taoist sect in armed rebellion against a government (whose colour is Red). Even if the association is a coincidence, it could be seen as deliberate provocation.