On Power (electrical)

[Faustmouse]

Thanks but I was more looking for a "table" that shows "A Store consumes 5 MW", "Automobile Factory consumes 20 MW" etc.

Do you know anything about that?

 

[intlidave]

I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated than that (what is a car factory? - one that makes 5 cars/ year , or one that makes 500k, etc...). This site has a bunch of info that might be helpful.
http://buildingsdatabook.eren.doe.gov/

 

[Azurian]

Is the Electricity property considered complete?

 

[Faustmouse]

No, there are a few tags missing and I haven't fully understand how to manipulate properties with techs or how to set a limit that is increaseable with buildings etc. Also, all the buildings requiring Power need to have a value HOW MUCH power they consume.

 

[Azurian]

No, there are a few tags missing and I haven't fully understand how to manipulate properties with techs or how to set a limit that is increaseable with buildings etc. Also, all the buildings requiring Power need to have a value HOW MUCH power they consume.

I am trying to figure it out myself too.

This are the Game Object Modifiers AI Andy Added.

GOM_BUILDING
GOM_PROMOTION
GOM_TRAIT
GOM_FEATURE
GOM_OPTION
GOM_TERRAIN
GOM_GAMESPEED
GOM_ROUTE
GOM_BONUS
GOM_UNITTYPE
GOM_TECH
GOM_CIVIC
GOM_RELIGION
GOM_CORPORATION

Integer Expressions
Global Define Value
Integer Attribute
Property
Constant (integer literal)

 

[Faustmouse]

I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated than that (what is a car factory? - one that makes 5 cars/ year , or one that makes 500k, etc...). This site has a bunch of info that might be helpful.
http://buildingsdatabook.eren.doe.gov/

I just can't find any data on how much energy is consumed by a specific industry. I guess that's because of what you said: It depends on how big that industry is.
I also start thinking we might want to use MWh instead of MW to represent electricity, but then propaply switch to GWh since numbers getting bigger and bigger...

 

[Azurian]

Faustmouse my laptop ran out of batteries so I am typing this from my phone. Try this to modify technology.

Property Manipulators
Property Source
[Put the stuff that represents Property Here]
<Objecttype>
<has>
GOMType GOM_TECH
TECH_X
</has>
<Iamountperturn>1</I amount perturn>
</ObjectType>
</propertysource>
</Property Manipulators >

 

[Azurian]

Ahh can't edit on phone

Look at your code you used to add GOM_Bonus in your buildinfos and look at Property Crime code used In Buiding Infos.

I think you have to combine both.

Look at Buildings Schema and look for correct SPELLING OF GameObjectType.

Try that and see if it works

 

[intlidave]

I just can't find any data on how much energy is consumed by a specific industry. I guess that's because of what you said: It depends on how big that industry is.
I also start thinking we might want to use MWh instead of MW to represent electricity, but then propaply switch to GWh since numbers getting bigger and bigger...

As I said, specific industries are difficult to peg down. You can take a look at the percentual distribution of power consumption and then make some assumptions. But the problem is that real world industry is far more complex (and incidentally, far more flexible) than what is represented in Civ4.

If you have questions about specific industries, I could probably give you (horribly oversimplified) answers.
Example: Mercedes-Benz produces ~1.4 mil cars per year (2012), in 17 production plants. An average automobile requires roughly 1.5 MWhs of energy to manufacture (including energy to make individual components, smelting steel, etc... - sidenote: many "green" cars such as Toyota Prius have far greater energy requirements, courtesy of their rare-earth batteries), giving an "average" car factory an annual consumption of 123529,4 MWhs (1.4M / 17 *1.5) . Or a constant consumption of ~14MegaWatts. This assumes all components are made in the factory (they aren't). If you want to make each of the factories producing components (steel, cast iron, non-ferrous metals, rubber, plastics, etc...) consume electricity, you'll have to lower energy consumption of the car factory (and then you run into fun problems like figuring out how much steel form a steel mill goes into making cars and so on).

 

[Faustmouse]

Thank you for this example, I see now that the whole electricity property is far more complex than I thought

But at least I now know that a car factory (with all of it's parts) consumes around 14 MW

I THINK that the most energy consuming part for making a car is the production of the raw material for it's parts rather than actually making the parts and assembling them, right?
We don't need to be over accurate here, so I would propose Factories in general should consume around 3 MW (is this roughly correct?).
So what about the energy consumption of these (roughly)?

- Average Store
- Average Mine
- Average Smelter (I know for example that Aluminium consumes a lot of energy, and that ironsmelter run on coal rather than energy. Do you think it makes any sense that smelters require power at all?)
- Average Ingots to Product maker (that would be the same as Factory I guess)
- Average Computer Center (yeah, there are order of magnitudes between google and a small companies Intranet, I mean a Network that actually is represented with the building: Computer Network.


If you want to, you can fill in values for buildings in this google doc:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsZ97EvYjrFzdFdWQnBJUDNSMmR1bzhURlhyd29PLXc#gid=2

Feel free to override what I filled in so far if you think the values are wrong.

 

[intlidave]

Thank you for this example, I see now that the whole electricity property is far more complex than I thought

But at least I now know that a car factory (with all of it's parts) consumes around 14 MW

I THINK that the most energy consuming part for making a car is the production of the raw material for it's parts rather than actually making the parts and assembling them, right?

Right

We don't need to be over accurate here, so I would propose Factories in general should consume around 3 MW (is this roughly correct?).

Roughly yes

So what about the energy consumption of these (roughly)?

- Average Store

Ma&Pa store: about the same as average household: ~10MWhs/year (about 1kW constant consumption)
Supermarket: 50kWh per square foot per year (source: http://www.energystar.gov/buildings...Flyer for Supermarkets and Grocery Stores.pdf)
Assuming about 80k square feet (a good sized Walmart), it's about 4000MWh/year, or about 0.5 MW constant consumption.
(more when selling electronics)

- Average Mine

Mines don't consume much electric energy. Mining machinery mostly runs on oil.
"In 1985, the Bureau of Mines reported that electric power requirements at most taconite operations range between 100 and 150-kilowatt hours per ton of pellets produced." (source: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/manufacturing/resources/mining/pdfs/iron.pdf). At about 20k tons, that's ~0.25 MW constant consumption.

- Average Smelter (I know for example that Aluminium consumes a lot of energy, and that ironsmelter run on coal rather than energy. Do you think it makes any sense that smelters require power at all?)

Some do require energy. Steel mills use electric furnaces to process pig iron. About 500-750 kWh of electricity are consumed per ton of steel. Assuming production of ~300k tons per year (steel mills are usually supplied by many mines), that's ~20MW constant consumption (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/manufacturing/resources/steel/pdfs/steel_energy_use.pdf). Aluminum plants have OBSCENE energy requirements (big ones have their own 1000+ MW power plants - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_smelting#Example_aluminium_smelters). So ~500MW constant consumption is a rather conservative estimate for an "average" plant.

- Average Ingots to Product maker (that would be the same as Factory I guess)

Give or take. Depends on production volume, but mostly they're just machining the tools.

- Average Computer Center (yeah, there are order of magnitudes between google and a small companies Intranet, I mean a Network that actually is represented with the building: Computer Network.

About 0.1 MW constantly for an "average" data center. 1MW for a really big one.

If you want to, you can fill in values for buildings in this google doc:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsZ97EvYjrFzdFdWQnBJUDNSMmR1bzhURlhyd29PLXc#gid=2

Feel free to override what I filled in so far if you think the values are wrong.

I'll take a look at it.
EDIT: OK, I've looked over your list and one thing I noticed is that you assign energy use to a lot of small stores. -Their energy use is on par with family houses, so I wouldn't make them consume any energy at all (or rather have it be a part of the energy consumed by general population).

 

[Faustmouse]

haha good to have you here, I had 20 MW for Computer Center but would have given only 5 MW for Smelters

How do you know so much about electricity usage?

 

[intlidave]

2 semesters of engineering in college

 

[Faustmouse]

Ah cool

Thanks for you help so far! You really brought the electricity Mod a HUGE step forward!

Feel free to add values for the remaining buildings if you like (no need to hurry and if you don't want, that's totally fine, too!). I just stopped there because I realized that I have no idea what I'm doing (as you might have seen )

 

[Thunderbrd]

@MrAzure: Can you see in Andy's documentations any existing way to grant absolute limits on minimum and maximum property values on a plot/city?

 

[Azurian]

Thunderbrd I will, I am looking at the Building Schema and seeing what I can and can't do.

For Techs, I know their is a code format that adds + and - to GameObjectModifers.

So +1 electrity at Electrical Engineering.

Looking to make templates so we don't have to keep looking at how to do it.

 

[Azurian]

@mrazure: Can you see in andy's documentations any existing way to grant absolute limits on minimum and maximum property values on a plot/city?

So I would Try This (untested):

<PropertyManipulators>
  				<PropertySource>
   					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
						<PropertyType>PROPERTY_ELECTRICITY</PropertyType>
						<GameObjectType>[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]GAMEOBJECT_PLOT[/COLOR]</GameObjectType>
						<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
			[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]		<iminvalue>500</iminvalue> 
                                        <imaxvalue>100000</imaxvalue>[/COLOR]
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

 

[Thunderbrd]

So I would Try This (untested):

<PropertyManipulators>
  				<PropertySource>
   					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
						<PropertyType>PROPERTY_ELECTRICITY</PropertyType>
						<GameObjectType>[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]GAMEOBJECT_PLOT[/COLOR]</GameObjectType>
						<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
			[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]		<iminvalue>500</iminvalue> 
                                        <imaxvalue>100000</imaxvalue>[/COLOR]
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

I believe this may set up only a min and max for the SOURCE of the property, this output... I could be wrong. I'd be interested to see the results of some tests on it.

 

[Azurian]

No, there are a few tags missing and I haven't fully understand how to manipulate properties with techs or how to set a limit that is increaseable with buildings etc. Also, all the buildings requiring Power need to have a value HOW MUCH power they consume.

Thanks to God-Emperor the correct manner to have Electricity (well any property) be manipulated by Techs is

<PropertyManipulators>
				<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_ELECTRICTY</PropertyType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>1</iAmountPerTurn> [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]ADD VALUE[/COLOR]
					<Active>
						<Has>
				   			<GOMType>GOM_TECH</GOMType>
				   			<ID>TECH_CYBERNETICS</ID> [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]ADD TECH[/COLOR]
						</Has>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just need to keep in mind then that consumption is - and generation is +.

Thanks to GE and Azure for working that out!