One Europe - In our life time?

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by MrPresident
So you found them amusing before...

Utter lies.

I have been an enemy of racism on these boards since the start.

Attempting to drag me down to your level is despicable, but not surprising.
Considering your skewed skills of debate.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Racist mania? Brilliant.

And true, it would seem.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Around the Midlands and in some of the Northern towns and cities.

Sure.
That is why our shipbuilding has mostly been contracted to European companies?

Get a clue.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Around the coastline.

And it really challenges Europe and the USA, eh?

That is why the USA dictates to us what we buy, recall the banana trade incident?
Where we had to bow to US demands of buying their goods?

Oh, yes, we have such a bullish market...

And then there is the gigantic debt the UK is in.

MrPrez, come back when you decend to earth.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Currently fighting in Iraq and I think there are a few nuclear tridant submarines in the various oceans of the world.

A day dream...

And we influence who?
Did we influence any countries that actually mattered?
Like the French, Chinese or Russians?
The last two snort in derision at our so-called power.
And the first probably does anyway.

Our forces are a drop in the lake, when contrasted with the might of the USA's war projection.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Since our former glory was based on the subjection of "other" peoples I think that is no bad thing. I don't deny that Britain is not as powerful as the Britain of the past. However we are a permanent member of the UN security council, we have the 4th largest economy in the world, we are the third largest country in the European Union, we are America's closest ally, our language is the most widely spoken language in the world, we are a member of the commonwealth, we are a founder member of NATO, we are one of the G8 countries etc.

So what?
Past glories and current platitiudes have no bearing on the fact that we are a tiddler among the big global fish.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by CurtSibling

...we are a tiddler among the big global fish.

There is only one big global fish - the United States.

Of the rest of the world, there are few nations of more importance than us.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Pillager


There is only one big global fish - the United States.

Of the rest of the world, there are few nations of more importance than us.

How are we important?
Because of our alliance with the states?

We could be wiped out in one nuke strike.

I see an over-inflated self-view some Brits have developed, due to being involved in this current war mania.

 

[ellie]

The eu is run by france and germany

They usually ignore directives when it doesnt suit them

I want no closer ties to the EU

And the numerous opinion polls conducted show this is the view of the majority of british people.

Ellie

 

[CurtSibling]

Pillager, to prove your claim that we (the UK) are some big contender on the world stage,

Please list the nations we could terrify and conquer with non-nuclear conventional warfare.

And without help from our super-power ally.

Not many, I'll wager.

 

[ellie]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
Pillager, to prove your claim that we (the UK) are some big contender on the world stage,

Please list the nations we could terrify and conquer with non-nuclear conventional warfare.

And without help from our super-power ally.

Not many, I'll wager.

Shrug curt

We still have a very high projection ability compared to euro land

And its set to improve with delivery of typhoons, development of f35, new decent size carriers, operation of apaches.

Ellie

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by CurtSibling


How are we important?
Because of our alliance with the states?

We could be wiped out in one nuke strike.

I see an over-inflated self-view some Brits have developed, due to being involved in this current war mania.

Since you ask:

Economically
- The fourth biggest economy in the world
- The third largest stock market in the world
- The largest recipient of inward investment into the E.U.
- Strong links with the US economy

Culturally
- Home of the world's greatest language
- Unique cultural links with half of the world outside Europe.
- Strong cultural links with the world's two greatest influential centres - Europe and the US.

Politically
- The USA's greatest ally
- Again, more world-wide links than probably any other country on the planet
- UNSC member

Militarily
- A nuclear power
- One of probably only three countries (US and France) capable of truly global reach.
- Leading NATO member
- By far the closest ally with the world's leading military nation, in both straightworward military terms, and in intelligence.

 

[CurtSibling]

I wouldn't discount the potency of some of the German and French weapon systems.

And I have no doubt Russia could reduce the UK to a smoking ruin in one ICBM strike.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
I wouldn't discount the potency of some of the German and French weapon systems.

And I have no doubt Russia could reduce the UK to a smoking ruin in one ICBM strike.

but russia are also vulnerable to nuclear strikes. anybody is. you say the uk could be reduced to a smoking ruin, any country could. this doesn't make the uk unimportant.

our military rocks btw.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Pillager
Economically
- The fourth biggest economy in the world
- The third largest stock market in the world
- The largest recipient of inward investment into the E.U.
- Strong links with the US economy

We still bow to outside pressure.

Originally posted by Pillager
Culturally
- Home of the world's greatest language
- Unique cultural links with half of the world outside Europe.
- Strong cultural links with the world's two greatest influential centres - Europe and the US.

This is all speculation and non-definitive.
Mandarin Chinese is spoken by far more people than English.

Originally posted by Pillager
Politically
- The USA's greatest ally
- Again, more world-wide links than probably any other country on the planet
- UNSC member

Again, you use the USA as a benchmark.
Proving our reliance on a bigger power.

Originally posted by Pillager
Militarily
- A nuclear power
- One of probably only three countries (US and France) capable of truly global reach.
- Leading NATO member
- By far the closest ally with the world's leading military nation, in both straightworward military terms, and in intelligence.

And Russia has no sub-based nuclear capability?
Again you harp our alliance with the USA, seems to be the keystone of your argument.

I see nothing here but generic statements based on a biased view of the nation.

Not anywhere do mention:

Our giant debt,
Our large level of unemployment,
Our lack of decent military supplies,
Our rampant drug issues,
Our out of public touch and US-bowing premier,

Address these issues if you want to display the UK's real face.

Instead of an image of this Britain you have in your mind.

And despite all your bombast, I stll think a United Europe is our future, nothing you can say will change my mind.

 

[ellie]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
I wouldn't discount the potency of some of the German and French weapon systems.

And I have no doubt Russia could reduce the UK to a smoking ruin in one ICBM strike.

Curt

france and germany have defences geared to defence of sovereignty not projection. More true for germany than france. This makes sense for germany as their constitution forbids agression. 25% of frances budget goes to their nuke detterent as well, social laws have resulted in a much higher percentage of their budget being in wages compared to the uk/us. Added to which the uk gets access to us intelligence / technology that no other nation gets access to

Its a hangover from the cold war for continental forces, lots of armour, lots of short range interceptors, very little heavy airlift / shipping. Britains forces, following the strategic defence review were made MUCH more mobile, and designed for projection. Perhaps they knew they were gonna go on a series of mad wars ;<<

Moving an entire armoured division like the uk did, is something no other euro country could have done

Ill try to find the data on heavy shipping / heavy airlift abilities for each nation after work for you

Ellie

 

[Shahadet]

Originally posted by Plastic
But they don't HAVE a common ideology. In fact, they have many different widely divergent ideologies, some of which are diametrically opposed. And there is no reason to see these differences being resolved any time soon. If anything, the Iraq situation has just magnified and widened some of these differences.

Do you think it is realistic to think big countries are going to willingly reduce their influence and give power to little countries? Do you think it is realistic to think that little countries are going to willingly surrender their influence to increase the influence of big countries that don't seem to be working for their unified interests but rather only for the interests of big countries? I doubt that will ever happen, and therefore I doubt that a unified Europe will ever exist.

Not right now, I know that. I don’t believe the idea of a forming a single ideology will be easy. It will require the right leaders at the right times and a greater insight by the people of the member countries. Are these differences in opinion not due (to most member countries) to their own individual interests? It could also be said that certain countries were trying to carry favour by siding with the US on this issue. If so then I see the task of a single ideology being quite possible in the future. As I have said before, I don’t see this happening in the next few years, I have placed my faith on this in a new generation of political minds, free thinkers and believers of a single Europe. In the mean time there are still people involved with the EP/EC, trying to develop a blueprint for a new Europe. The point is that with one Europe there will be one country, not a section of big countries that rule over the rest. Individual influence will be dissolved to allow for the greater influence of the single nation. Doubting that something will ever happening is rather harsh. If any thing history has shown us how totally unpredictable the future is. I prefer to be a hopeful than a doubter. The possibility of a single EU is by far the most exciting thing in the modern world today. The point is that with one Europe there will be one country, not a section of big countries that rule over the rest. Individual influence will be dissolved to allow for the greater influence of the single nation.

I stated early on that it may well be the dream of an idealist, but could the same not be said for Martin Luther King? I don’t doubt that the EU needs some reforms as it is now. I am not the only one that can look beyond the pettiness of the individual gain, however we need these minds in a position were as they can influence the direction of the EU. So let me redirect the debate. Where do you see Europe in say 30 years? Try and give some reason as to what you believe will happen.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
our military rocks btw.

This I don't deny, but I wish people would not inflate them to be some new colonial army of a reborn British Empire...

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by ellie
france and germany have defences geared to defence of sovereignty not projection. More true for germany than france. This makes sense for germany as their constitution forbids agression.

Funny how the USA/UK wanted them to go to war then...

Originally posted by ellie
Moving an entire armoured division like the uk did, is something no other euro country could have done

And no other nation in Europe has a tank divison? Or enough boats to move them?

Originally posted by ellie
Ill try to find the data on heavy shipping / heavy airlift abilities for each nation after work for you

Thanks, but no thanks.
It's not really going to change my view of the issue.
That the UK is not the superpower some posters think it is.

 

[Shahadet]

I guess this is our last goodbye
And you don't care so I won't cry
But you'll be sorry when I'm dead
And all this guilt will be on your head
I guess you'd call it suicide
But I'm too full to swallow my pride

I can't, I can't, I can't stand loosing,
I can't, I can't, I can't stand loosing,
I can't, I can't, I can't stand loosing,
I can't, I can't, I can't stand loosing,
I can't, I can't, I can't stand loosing,
I can't, I can't, I can't stand loosing,
I can't, I can't, I can't stand loosing the topic of this thread

 

[WonderStuFF]

This has wandered a little.It was supposed to be about a united Europe and under what conditions it could occur in the future.
I still say no,i'm just trying to envisage how it may happen in the future if indeed it does.
WS~

P.S Curt u have some weird facination or hang up with 'colonial Britain' as u mention it constantly when it is of little relevance?

Talking of the military...The US dont draw the SAS out of a hat.They request their use because they are recognised as the best in the world.Whats the shame in that.
It gets on my T*ts that were constantly supposed to be sorry for the empire here when its probably the main reason we have wealth in this country now.
WS~

 

[ellie]

Originally posted by CurtSibling


Our giant debt,
.

Hmm european national debts as a % of gdp it appears only luxembourg has lower,

Belgium
116.1
Italy
115.1
Greece
104.6
Sweden
65.7
Austria
65.2
Spain
63.7
Netherlands
62.9
Germany
61.1
France
56.9
Portugal
55.6
Denmark
52.6
Ireland
50.1
Finlandl
46.6
UK
45.7
Luxembourg
6.0

As for the superpower, no of course we arent.
Just the most capable in europe

Ellie

And i proise to stay ontopic sorry was just responding to stuff posted

 

[CurtSibling]

Back on topic.

I think Europe will unify, once the petty self-interest and the wallowing in past glory is removed.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by WonderStuFF
P.S Curt u have some weird facination or hang up with 'colonial Britain' as u mention it constantly when it is of little relevance?

If you care to read back a bit, you will see I was merely answering back to Pillager's and MrPresident's
bloated claims of the UK's superiorty over it's neighbours.

He who reads the thread casts the first stone.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by CurtSibling


We still bow to outside pressure.

As does every country. This doesn't reduce our importance in the world.

Originally posted by CurtSibling

This is all speculation and non-definitive.
Mandarin Chinese is spoken by far more people than English.

This again?! English is the most widely spoken language in the world. It is the language of popular culture, business, the internet. Apart from China, you name a country in which Mandarin Chinese is spoken widely, as either a first or second language. English is spoken as a first language in the UK, Ireland, the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, and others, and it is spoken by a large proportion of the population as a second language in pretty well every country in the world. It is so much more important that every other language in the world that the point is really indisputable.

Originally posted by CurtSibling

Again, you use the USA as a benchmark.
Proving our reliance on a bigger power.

Our relationship to the US is very important - everyone's relationship with the US is important because of her undeniable dominance. Our closeness to her is a part of our influence and strength, but not all of it.

Originally posted by CurtSibling


Not anywhere do mention:

[1] Our giant debt,
[2] Our large level of unemployment,
[3] Our lack of decent military supplies,
[4] Our rampant drug issues,
[5] Our out of public touch and US-bowing premier,

1. That is of little consequence in our world-wide standing. Look at the size of the USA's debt.
2. What??? Our unemployment is extremely low compared to France, Germany and Russia, and practically the same as the USA's. Ours is approximately 5% (lower on some measures), as is the USA's. Both France and Germany have unemployment of over 10%, and I shudder to think what Russia's is. Japan is the only major power to have lower unemployment.
3. That is a cause of concern, but it hardly invalidates my argument. We still have the most important military force in Europe, and one of the most important in the world.
4. I think you must be getting very desperate for arguments. This point is just irrelevant.
5. This is irrelevant too. Would you prefer Chirac the Criminal, or perhaps Schroeder 'promise everything to get elected, oppose the US to get elected, then do bugger all as my economy goes down the pan'?