One Last Roll of the Dice

[Meiz]

I think we are better off taking Mansa's cities before advancing to Khmer lands.. Khmer border cities don't provide much commerce, so we would probably just add more mainteinance than it's worth. I'd much rather produce more workers (which we really need) than to-be-outdated troops at this moment.

The way I see it, we should tech peacefully to maces and then bring hell to Mansa, Sury and the Ottomans, maybe in that order.

 

[grandad1982]

I agree about the troop thing. I suggested Angkor Wat as Sury may have left it weakly defended.

Somewhere around the Sury borderlands will be a good Forbiden Palace location when he's gone.

I also agree we are short on workers (by about 5 or 6!) but there wasn't anywere to produce them while I was anticipationg the DoW. If you can get 1 or 2 out then brilliant.

As you can see I decided forges were a good idea. they make all our later builds that much cheaper/faster.

 

[Meiz]

As you can see I decided forges were a good idea. they make all our later builds that much cheaper/faster.

Yep, one major bonus for Indrustious leader especially. I can play tomorrow after all, so the rest have time to comment our situation.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

I'm in agreement with both of you on virtually everything. I like the forge decision. My previously expressed opinion on hitting Mansu remains the same.

GD, well played.

Need to figure out when to slot in engineering for the trebs.

 

[Cam_H]

Grandad,

Very pleased to see our Great Library gamble pay off! Good stuff! I think Lyons can possibly afford to run a couple of Scientists soon for the points.

Also relieved that Suryavarman took a lot longer than he could have to actually launch that invasion. That stack wouldn't look so pathetic I suspect if he had invaded at the start of the turnset. He seems to have left his Chariots at home?

_________

I'm going to get disagreeable on a couple of points, although I've said it before, I appreciate that these Succession Games are democratic and 'majority rules' ...

These trade deals are just making the AI stronger, and the guy I see as our biggest rival (no friend) is Churchill. I, myself, initiated a 3/turn for Cow with him, which I privately had mixed feelings about, but I'd rather not just feed the AI with resources and make life easier for them.

Mansa is actually the last of our three neighbours I'd currently consider invading when we get an invasion force together. I am getting less and less enamoured with the idea of taking on Mali ... he's the best tech' trading partner by far, and much less likely to attack us than the other 'second tier warmongers' we have around us. Even though he's now founded Walata off-shore I find it very unlikely that he'll pose any meaningful problems for us when we finally get rid of the real pests to our north. On the other hand, if we let Suryavarman live he'll just continue to be a hindrance, and I would put the Khmer firmly in our sites. Mehmed's no use to us, but he's pals with Isabella, and I'd rather not have to cope with three enemies simultaneously. This re-raises the question about whether to adopt and spread Christianity in our empire, and if so, how much effort can we afford to put into Christian Missionaries?

Unsure about Fish-Iron-Rice while we're still at war. I don't see settling it as a major problem, as I don't think that Suryavarman will try to take it. Still, I'm not completely comfortable about it either as one Khmer Chariot would be enough, so I'd want to cover it with at least a Spearman as well.

Generally I would like to see a few more Workers too, but we can't build everything in every city instantly either! A Forge in Rheims would be good, but we also need more units.

 

[grandad1982]

Re GPT trades. I agree that as a long term idea this is bad to strengthen our enermies but untill we get markets (or switch to caste) I was looking for ways to raise our cash flow.

I would also hold off thbe fish city for awhile. At least untill we can spare the workers.

Considered a forge in Rheims but opted for units. Maybe if we get peace soon we can build one there?

On religion. We have more cities with Islam but Christ would bring Issabella onside. I'm inclined (by about a 60/40 split) to opt for Christ as Mansa will still trade with us if we go Christ but Isabella and Mehmed will be V. pissed if we go Islam. Sury is already pissed so who care what he thinks?! Anyway I see us going FR later as we'll be a Tech monster with all those cities.

I'd be inclined to deal with Khmer first as well. We've seen he has a hardon for us and no one likes him so its a win win. After him though I would go Mali as I want that Shrine!!!

With our worker shortage I suggest they are consentrated on individial cities and only move on when that city has enough tiles to work in the mid term.

 

[Meiz]

So even if we would kill Sury first, do you agree that we should do it with maces and catapults, instead of trying to do it immediately?

I know that I'm repeating myself, but taking Mansa's cities first would improve our economy conciderably more than taking Sury's cities. But this being Monarch, we can probably do what we want for the rest of the game, so I'm fine with either option

 

[Meiz]

I managed to play whopping 4 turns before stopping to ask advice

Preturn

- Lyons has lots of overflow, so I choose to build 2 turn worker.
- Rheims switches to a forge.
- Orleans whips a forge.
- Paris whips a market.

Turn 1

- Paris overflow goes towards another worker.
- Our GP city starts library for scientist slots.
- Whip forge in Rheims.
- Vandal whips a granary.

Turn 2

Kill the Sury's separated chariot with spearman and cover it with two axes.

- Vandals starts a forge.
- Tours whips forge for more whip anger, but the happy cap will not be a problem there.
- Whip forge in Chartres.

Turn 3

Sury does what the AI's do best, suicides his stack without any losses from us I make peace with him, so we can war later on our own terms (and better troops). Back to peacefull building

Now that we have peace, fish / iron is settled. Two workers begin mining the iron immediately.

Turn 4

Construction in. The question is, should we reseach Machinery next and try to trade it with Mansa for CS? That would hopefully get us maces faster. Here's the image and also the save if anyone wants to take a closer look. And don't worry, our research can only improve from the current situation

I also switched EP's from Mansa to Churchill. That ok?

Anyway, let me know what you think and I'll continue my set.

 

[grandad1982]

So far so good. Nice use of the Whip.

On the tech front its a case of "roll a dice" to decide. If you feel we can get Mach and trade it before Mansa techs it then go for it. Both techs have definate advantages.

Since we don't need chain irrigation just yet (despitge my signs) Mach and Xbow won't hurt.

Don't forget to start pumping cats!

 

[Cam_H]

Agreed, going well!

I'm also happy to support Machinery, if only to get Admiral his Trebuchets!

In terms of city management, I'd propose;

The Market builds in both Lyons and Orleans are probably deferrable, but the Orleans one will be at an advanced point after the chop and we could see it through. These cities don't have great commerce hauls right now, our people are ever so happy already, and Merchant specialists are good but I don't see them making a great contribution right now out of these two cities. I know grandad likes his Markets, but for me I'd suggest that (a.) Lyons grows to 7 population by max'ing now, and when the population increases switch on two Scientist specialists, and possibly it can swap to a slow Catapult production while the city continues to grow, while (b.) the chop about to go into Orleans probably could be directed into the Market and this city can drop its Scientists and work the Mines to get this build completed. Catapults after that.

Tours, Marseilles, and Chartres are all about to grow in population, and I think all of them, after they do so, can switch to Worker production. I'm not sure if there's a perceived need to build a city either side of Avignon and to found that filler-city spot south-ish of Grenoble in any great hurry, but if so, maybe Settler(s) instead of Workers? I'd suggest these future cities are low priorities for us now.​

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

x-post with Cam

I think we can coerce whatever we will eventually need and don't really see the need to keep Mansu around. We can move all those defensive units off the southern border to whichever front.

So even if we would kill Sury first, do you agree that we should do it with maces and catapults, instead of trying to do it immediately?

I know that I'm repeating myself, but taking Mansa's cities first would improve our economy conciderably more than taking Sury's cities. But this being Monarch, we can probably do what we want for the rest of the game, so I'm fine with either option

I think I'm trying to say what Meiz said. I sort of see Mansu as a speed bump. Slows us down, but doesn't impede progress.

I just don't see us making much progress against Sury when we don't have trebs and maces and he has LB's. Cat's and swords are an uphill battle. We might take one of his cities, but I don't see any campaign.

On religion, can we hold off on that decision?

I'm amphibious (I can breathe air, beer or vodka) on the tech choice. Fine either way.

Anyway, let me know what you think and I'll continue my set.

I think therefore I am? i'm good with either choice.

Have fun with it.

EDIT:

I'm also happy to support Machinery, if only to get Admiral his Trebuchets!

I always feel naked without trebs and pikes.

 

[Meiz]

After this set, you all know that I like to whip. A lot... Fortunately happy cap is not our problem!

Regarding the comments above, I think we really need to fix our economy before starting to invade anyone, so I focused almost completely on infra. Regarding workers, we are better off producing them from bigger cities, so our new cities really get up and running.

I choose Machinery next and hope it will not be a mistake...

Turn 5

Change our current deals with Churchill (two resources for 4 gpt) to cows for 5 gpt. I also succesfully beg 70 gold from him.

- Paris finishes worker and starts another one, coming in 4 turns.

- Marseilles whips library for two pop, so we can employ scientists asap.

Turn 6

Churchill has Machinery already, so let's hope Mansa picks another path...

- Marseilles starts market, National Epic next?

Turn 8

Marbe quarry is destroyed by infiltrators and I don't have spare workers to fix that Fortunately we don't need marble right now...

Cancel our resource deal (dyes for 3 gpt) with Isabella.

- Whip forge in Vandal.

Turn 9

- Paris starts another worker.

- Vandal starts courthouse as the mainteinance is almost 7gpt even on size 2.

- Whip market in Tours.

Turn 11

Looks like we have to fight for the fishes... Should be easy with time, but for now the build is changed to granary.

- Paris starts barracks so it can build catapults as well. Some chops on the way.

Turn 13

- Orleans finishes market and starts catapult.

Turn 14

Buddhims spreads in one of our cities, but we don't care. What we do care is that Mansa founds hinduism in Djenne (Divine Right I guess?). Well, lucky us

Fire scientists in Lyons and focus on growth and production.

Turn 15

- Whip library in Chatres.

- Whip courthouse in Vandal.

- Whip granary in Avignon.

Just for laughs, I demanded 100 gold from Sury and he agrees

Comments:

Now I realize that I didn't mention Rheims in my report. That's because all it did was some boring catapult builds

Tours is heavily whipped, so we should take it easy there for a while. Two chops are on the way towards a library.

Machinery in 2 turns. Hopefully Mansa will make a straight deal but if not, we should invest some breakers towards CS next.

I suggest we finish the remaining basic infra and then make a full focus towards military. I agree that our two filler cities can and should wait.

Islam is heavily spreaded and I saw numerous missionaries travelling through our lands. More reasons to invade Mansa next :]

Demos:

Power:

Techs:

And now I realize that I should have played 10 instead of 15 turns. Sorry...

Roster
grandad1982
Meiz - hogging turns...
Cam H - up
Admiral Kutzov - on deck

 

[grandad1982]

Nice set Meiz. Don't worry about the extra turns it all worked out ok!

My thoughts go as follows.

Paris should switch from its newly built cottage to amine for the barracks in 1. Leave the forests that aren't being improved right now so that we don't loss the health bonus from them (only has +1 health left in Paris).

Chartres should build a naval unit to send exploring.

Start to find some places to run merchants (Orleans and Paris) after Mach is in.

Only build workers and cats for a while (apart from Chartres).

Get monastaries up in future commerce cities.

Issy is hands full and has the highest treat index. Doubt she's going for us. Probably Sury. If she DoW we should consider a dogpile.

Try to get all religions in the GP city as Mansa hasn't shrined his religions yet and we will want to do that when we get them.

Talking of GP if we run some sci in Lyons we get a GP this set. If we get a GSci then bulb Philo? GProth settle in..... or bulb Theo?

at the whip anger in Tours!!!

 

[grandad1982]

Infact if people want to play sets longer than 10 then feel free to play 15 but don't feel pressured into doing so. Also don't do this if something major happens that we haven't discussed. just finish on multiples of 5

 

[Meiz]

N
Talking of GP if we run some sci in Lyons we get a GP this set. If we get a GSci then bulb Philo? GProth settle in..... or bulb Theo?

Not sure about the scientist as Churchill knows Philosophy already. Trading opportunities would be quite limited. I would probably settle the scientist in Paris.

 

[grandad1982]

Oh one other thing. Get some workers to Vandal!

I was thinking the bulb to start us toards Lib. I guess we'll get plenty of GSci so settling this one would be ok, esspecially as we have the Acad in Paris doing not much....

 

[Cam_H]

Thoughts at this stage, but aim to play within a day ...

• Scout the Ottoman Empire. Why this hasn't already been done, I'm not sure.

• Marseilles: National Epic.

• Chartres: Grow to 3 population while building a Barracks and then swap to a Worker.

• Avignon, Rouen, and Grenoble ... continue as is.

• Paris: I'm OK to build the Barracks in 2 turns, but I would have thought that an Islamic Monastery would have been good here, esp. given we're approaching Bureaucracy and could do with the boost.

• Orleans and Lyons: I am a bit confused by what's been going on here. The wrong city seems to be running the Scientists. I made this point earlier.

• Rheims: Continue to build Catapults. Work the Stone next, which will slow Growth down to +1/turn until we want to build an Aqueduct there. A Clam <> Banana trade is possible with some of the rivals, or Isabella will go for 3/turn + Clam <> Copper (she has Iron), that might help Rheims' health problem a little.

• We are some way off getting the Great Scientist, so the Philosophy bulb idea mightn't be so great if Mansa is going to get it before we do. It would be a nice trade for Civil Service right now if we had it, but given that the roster seems OK to trade Machinery then we'll do that. Otherwise, Philosophy seems of value only as a prerequisite of Liberalism, which is a long way off and therefore I'd rather put the Great Scientist to use now than burn him on something that's not of urgency.
  
  I would have actually built an Academy in Lyons (leverage our two free Scientists plus others we'll be running, plus some badly needed Culture while we're still at peace with Mali), but if we're intending to build Oxford in Paris, then merging the Great Scientist into Paris is a better long-term proposition.

• Suryavarman won't Open Borders now, but if he's willing, are we?

 

[Meiz]

• Paris: I'm OK to build the Barracks in 2 turns, but I would have thought that an Islamic Monastery would have been good here, esp. given we're approaching Bureaucracy and could do with the boost.

Two chops coming so monastery can be a quick build.

• Orleans and Lyons: I am a bit confused by what's been going on here. The wrong city seems to be running the Scientists. I made this point earlier.

Basically I ran two scientists in both cities for almost the whole set. I felt like getting Machinery asap was mandatory for us to make the CS trade with Mansa. Starting at my turn 5, it was going to take 21 turns, but now we get it in 12.

 

[grandad1982]

Regarding Chartres. Please try to get a naval unit out (preferably a galley) or started.

If you get the GSci maybe consider the Acad in Lyons as well as the settling in Paris option, because as you pointed out it would be usefull there.

Your plan seems pretty sound.

Just remember, workers, workers, workers.....!

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for your comments / suggestions.

One quick thing that I was assuming, but wanted to check (provided that we can get a Machinery <> Civil Service trade);

Engineering before Paper?​