One Last Roll of the Dice

[Cam_H]

You're confused??!!! Imagine what I'm going through??!!

 

[grandad1982]

Ok in an attempt to clarify some of the above confusion, here's my summary of what seems be be the consensus

Cities

Paris, Work towards the HG. Also a worker?
Rheims, Military (for garrison troops and some swords).
Lyons/Orleans, farms and mines. Build workers, settlers...Market?
The new Jungle cities, get ready for Cal and Cottages.

Next city to settle Mehmed cow/rice blocker then I don't mind which is next.

Tech

Either MC or CoL. MC seems to be the best trade bait so we can trade for CoL and Cal.

Also I think everyone has voiced a positive for MC so why not?

Trade minor techs for cash.

Just do what seems like its a good idea

Longer Term Plans

By this I mean the next 2/3 sets.

Stay in slavery till some of our Jungle cities come online?

Get some Merch specs up and running (markets).

Lyons GLib? (will require some luck maybe...)

Get about 4 cities out in the next 2/3 sets?

Try to get a stack and take the barb city in 3 sets max?

Other

EP against Mansa? Would help us soften him up pre war...

Scouting. When we get the fish city up we'll want a ship for scouting to find those last AI! Whos it going to be....?

What do we do religion wise? I'd like Christianity but we can still benifit from Islam being in all our cities but not being Islamic. Happyness, culture, and research, plus another spec to run.


Anyway. Just my summary.

P.S. If you want to play before tomorrow night I don't mind as I can't guarantee I'll be able look at the save properly tomorrow.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for the summary ... I was actually going to do the same thing myself as per your request.

I'm just seeking clarification on ...

Iron-Fish city

Settle now or settle only if Khmer send a Settling party our way?

Lyons

I'm very concerned how 'Culture pressed' this city is becoming. Can I work on Islamic buildings?

Vandal

We seem to have a lot of spawnbusting units already ... can we just consolidate these and take Vandal with them, or do we really need Swords out of Rheims?

Paris

I hate whipping off Cottages, but can I do so to get the Aqueduct done at some point?

Metal Casting

Running Scientists in Orleans and Lyons is really stifling their growth, while on the opposite / other hand Paris could be running Scientists. How desperate are we for this technology versus getting these cities to grow?

Espionage

Currently: 2x Mansa, 1x Mehmed, 1x Sury', 0x Churchill. I'm personally happy with that split, but should we be thinking all of our points should go to Mansa?

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Iron-Fish city

Settle now or settle only if Khmer send a Settling party our way?

Only if the Khmer comes calling. Our economy is rocky enough.

Lyons

I'm very concerned how 'Culture pressed' this city is becoming. Can I work on Islamic buildings?

yes. I think we'll want to be building Islamic missionaries later.

Vandal

We seem to have a lot of spawnbusting units already ... can we just consolidate these and take Vandal with them, or do we really need Swords out of Rheims?

your choice. That said, I'd rather be building xbows

Metal Casting

Running Scientists in Orleans and Lyons is really stifling their growth, while on the opposite / other hand Paris could be running Scientists. How desperate are we for this technology versus getting these cities to grow?

let 'em grow some.

Espionage

Currently: 2x Mansa, 1x Mehmed, 1x Sury', 0x Churchill. I'm personally happy with that split, but should we be thinking all of our points should go to Mansa?

I see Mansu as a conventional military campaign. Sure a spy would make a city go down easier, but I'm hoping we have enough trebs and maces to take him out without a spy. If we dump all the EP on him are we going to have enough for more than one city? Thinking zero on churchill and Mansu and 1 each to Mehmed and Sury.

 

[Cam_H]

Opening Turn | 125BC

Made the trades;

Cancelled Mehmed Corn for Clam deal due to unhealthiness in Rheims.

Rheims: Wealth (interrupt) > Swordsman
Paris: Whip Aqueduct
Orleans; Whip Worker

Science down to 20%

Turn 1 | 110BC

Lyons’ borders pop.

Paris: Aqueduct > Hanging Gardens
Orleans: Worker > Settler

Various spawnbusting units are directed to meet two tiles outside of Vandal. Workers when available head towards Plantation-ready tiles.

Mehmed won’t trade with us as “We fear you are becoming too advanced.”

Turn 2 | 95BC

Lyons : Worker > Islamic Temple

Send a Warrior out to scout Mali and an Axeman to scout the Ottoman Empire.

Turn 3 | 80BC

Rheims: Sword > Settler
Tours: Whip Granary

Turn 4 | 65BC

Tours: Granary > Market
Orleans: Whip Settler
Lyons: Whip Islamic Temple
Rheims: Whip Settler

Note that Mansa Musa has spread Islam to our four foundation cities.

Turn 5 | 50BC

Orleans: Settler > Walls
Lyons: Islamic Temple > Walls
Rheims: Settler > Swordsman
Paris: Whip The Hanging Gardens

Turn 6 | 35BC

Paris: The Hanging Gardens > Market
Lyons: Walls > Islamic Monastery

Turn 7 | 20BC

Meet Isabella of Spain who was seemingly floating around on a Work Boat near Ankara.

I offer her a croissant avec fromage, but she tells us “We have enough on our hands right now”, and so I decline Opening Borders in case we inherit an enemy.

Science up to 30%

Note that Mansa Musa has Metal Casting and Churchill has Horseback Riding.

Units prepare to attack Vandal with its 3 Archers.

Turn 8 | 5BC

Unfortunately one Axeman RIP (and I couldn’t get good odds on our Chariot winning re. Medic II), however;

On the same turn;

Turn 9 | 10AD

Rheims: Swordsman > Axeman

Turn 10 | 25AD

Spot Mansa Musa has a Settler in Kumbi Salah. I consider closing borders to protect our turf, but wait to see what happens ibt.

Turn 11 | 40AD

The Settler disappears, possibly on a Galley?

Churchill: Trade Cow <-> 3/turn

Mehmed has acquired Aesthetics , while Isabella founds Judaism (presumably) to go with her collection of religions (Christianity and Taoism) and adopts Theocracy.

Turn 12 | 55AD

Isabella shrines the Dai Miao in Madrid. We finally spot Spanish borders.

Turn 13 | 70AD

Rheims: Axeman > Axeman

Turn 14 | 85AD

Orleans: Walls > Spy

Churchill has Feudalism.

Turn 15 | 100AD

Dye Plantation up. Waiting Settler might be ready to found Avignon now there's a commerce-rich tile to work?

Our Chariot just beginning to head into Khmer country spots a decent unit build up in Angkor Wat. Maybe one to watch?

Note that Mehmed has Literature;

Summary (Original Post):

On the plus side;

Two new cities ... Vandal and Chartres (Cow blocker).

Two cities in waiting ... Iron-Fish (inherited) and Dye.

The Hanging Gardens is in Paris.

Mehmed's no longer WHEOOHRN.​

On the minus side;

We're still around 6-7 turns from Metal Casting, which will not be a monopoly technology for us (Mansa).

We're really slipping on the technology front, and we're already running into WFYABTA problems. I'm confident that we'll turn this around, but we're behind right now.​

Of note;

We've met Isabella of Spain to our west.

On Turn 11 (40AD) Mansa had a Settler. I'm not sure if he's going to settle the islands to the south east, or try to sneak a city up near 'our' Silk.

For the next turnset: Open Borders with Isabella for likely better trade routes (she was WHEOOHRN when we first met her, and I didn't feel like any "trading with our worst enemy" issues, but that's now gone), and the Incense being worked in Orleans should be a Scientist (to benefit from the +25% from the Library).​

 

[grandad1982]

Looks like a solid set Cam H.

Shame no medic 2 for our chariot.

Doesn't matter to much where we run specs lets just try to keep our sci ticking over. If we build forges in the cities Lyonsor/Oleans we can build wealth for a bit to help our tech rate.

 

[Cam_H]

As I say, I'm confident that we'll catch up. All of those jungle cities are either still unfounded or tiny, while Paris' Cottages have quite some way to go. I'm wary we'll miss The Great Library, but I'm sure that you can win CivIV without this Wonder ... can't you?

Obviously try to run specialists in cities with Libraries and Monasteries, but 'yes', at this stage run them when we can other than maybe at the cost of Paris' developing Cottages.

Great Engineer (most likely) or Great Prophet next turnset too.

 

[Meiz]

Good set Cam_H. I think it's only a matter of time for us to catch up.

Spot Mansa Musa has a Settler in Kumbi Salah. I consider closing borders to protect our turf, but wait to see what happens ibt.

On a side note, I don't think AI's will send settlers through our borders even with OB. Settling from galley is still a concern.

Anyway, I'll take a closer look at the save later today.

 

[Meiz]

I think we should settle cows / dyes spot immediately, as one of the dyes is already improved.

Fish / iron and silk sites should be settled if we see AI settlers nearby or when we have enough workers to actually start to improve these sites. That being said, I'd like to get one settler to the silk spot before Mansa gets that idea.

After that we have two spots available which should be settled as soon as we get our economy up with merchants and scientists.

Great Library is probably lost cause, but we can do without it.

Techs after MC (by researching and trading)? How about CoL -> CS -> Construction -> Machinery -> Invade Mansa -> PROFIT!

Edit: Mansa has a nice fuzzy capital

Edit2: We can get MC in 5 turns with 50% science.

Aaand... edit3 : Tours has only one warrior defending. Might wan't to get couple of more units there soon

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

I'm wary we'll miss The Great Library, but I'm sure that you can win CivIV without this Wonder ... can't you?

Well, I think I built it once

Techs after MC (by researching and trading)? How about CoL -> CS -> Construction -> Machinery -> Invade Mansa -> PROFIT!

My preference is to research CoL and then Machinery after MC.

Haven't opened the save yet. More later, likely tomorrow.

Nice set Cam.

Edit: This is pretty much a nightmare scenario for me. I'm a brute force sorta guy and would have attacked Mansu long ago. We have no money and now I've gotta play tech catch up with Sury. Oh well S*** happens.

Cam did a nice job getting the settlers to where we need them. I'm not planning on planting any of them unless I see an incoming settler. I can't see myself doing a whole lot of whipping or trades. Get MC then get CoL and get ready for the next better player to switch off to Caste.

My idiotic plan is to build some swords, chop jungle, build roads. I don't see any good trades on the horizon and I'm worried about Sury.

also open up the borders with Sury.

ten or 15 turns?

 

[grandad1982]

10 turns now we're in the ADs.

Still haven't seen the save but I will tonight.

 

[grandad1982]

Just glaced at the save.

Orleans chould maybe switch to a market rather than finishing the spy.
Tours needs re-enforcing as Sury has a mini (well larger than ours) stack near it. Don't want him getting ideas.
Next city to found should be Dye city (maybe after another dye is improved).

If we 0% sci for a 2/3 turns we have gold to finsh MC in 3 turns at 90% sci (same as 100% but less expensive).

Maybe switch a sci in Lyons to a priest while on 0% sci for the gold.

After MC we should maybe go CoL or Machienary.

Looks like we'll not be getting theGLib this game. A rare occurence.

 

[Cam_H]

Orleans chould maybe switch to a market rather than finishing the spy.

Sounds OK. We have no anti-espionage, so I just felt that some protection would be of assistance, but I'm fine with the Market suggestion, although Markets are pretty expensive builds.

Tours needs re-enforcing as Sury has a mini (well larger than ours) stack near it. Don't want him getting ideas.

... build some swords ... I'm worried about Sury

I stumbled on this mini-stack on the last turn. We've got some fairly loose units hanging around (a couple of Axes at least), but we probably should build a Spearman and an Archer for Tours out of Rheims given Sury' has Chariots in this stack. We could gift him Monarchy or Maths if we're particularly concerned about it while he's not WHEEOHRN.

Cam did a nice job getting the settlers to where we need them. I'm not planning on planting any of them unless I see an incoming settler.

Next city to found should be Dye city (maybe after another dye is improved).

Yep - I'd say right away. The first Plantation's there ready to go.

(Re. The Great Library): Well, I think I built it once

Really? I go for it in about 90% of my games!

My preference is to research CoL and then Machinery after MC.

I'm in two minds about what to do with trading and research. On one hand we have Mansa who's almost immune to WFYABTA, whereas our cheap trades are already causing problems with other potential trading partners. I'd normally trade Metal Casting around to catch up on other tech's, but don't want to find us hamstrung later on in the game with WFYABTA preventing any decent trading opportunities. We would clearly benefit from CoL, but as we keep acquiring technology through trade, the worse our WFYABTA status gets.

We should also think about our upcoming Great Engineer / Great Prophet. The latter would seem to me to be a fairly straight-forward merge into Paris, but the former ... Wonders? If so which? Merge into Paris? Bulb (Machinery)?

Edit: This is pretty much a nightmare scenario for me. I'm a brute force sorta guy and would have attacked Mansu long ago. We have no money and now I've gotta play tech catch up with Sury. Oh well S*** happens.

At this difficulty level I'm a bit surprised that we're not better poised in terms of technology, but (being repetitive) we'll catch up soon enough. With that said, Mali always seems to be on tech' parity (allegedly Mansa uses 'build research' a lot after he gets Alphabet ... I suspect the AI just cheats ... then again, all of those Fur resources would help any leader) but Churchill is a bit unexpected.

also open up the borders with Sury.

I assume you mean Isabella, and if so 'yes'.

As also noted, please move the citizen in Orleans off the Incense and run him as a Scientist for better returns (or another tile if you wanted ). My .

 

[Meiz]

Great Prophet should probably be merged, but I like the idea to bulb Machinery with Great Engineer.

 

[grandad1982]

I like the proposed GP ideas. Can't think of any wonders that we'll want and have access to when the GE pops.

If we got Aes and Lit we could still get the GLib with the GEng. Maybe.

I agree about holding off trades. It would be very bad if we needed to make a critical trade later to find we can't.

Markets are hammer expensive but I find them vital to recovering a crashed economy. That gold bonus really helps when your trying to build up gold. Obviously

 

[grandad1982]

Just some advanced warnig here.

Going to be away most of the weekend (walking, girlfriends parents and then the World Cup Final (Come on Holland!!!)) so might get to peek at the thread but can't play or anything till monday.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

I'll edit this post later tonight or tomorrow for what I perceive the consensus to be and then plan to play Saturday.

Going to be away most of the weekend (walking, girlfriends parents and then the World Cup Final (Come on Holland!!!))

You're walking with the GF's parents to the WC final? Impressive.

EDIT: This is what I've distilled it to -

switch orleans from spy to market
reinforce Tours -gather the flock and build a spear and archer
Plant dye city asap
after MC go COL (I'm much more comfortable with caste)

I'm getting tired off watching our backs to the south. I know the arguments for keeping Mansu around but...

Open up borders with Izzy

MM Orleans - move the citizen in Orleans off the Incense and run him as a Scientist

merge GP or bulb GE

let know where I've gone astray. I promise, no cottages this set.

I'll play in about 24 or 36 hours.

 

[Cam_H]

I'm getting tired off watching our backs to the south. I know the arguments for keeping Mansu around but...

... merge GP or bulb GE

let know where I've gone astray. I promise, no cottages this set.

Mali

I am envisaging we take out Mali with Catapults, Crossbows and Macemen, but for the time being firming up forces along the Khmer border would seem more urgent.

Great Person

I'm still not really sure what to do with the Great Engineer if we get him, but bulbing 95%-ish of Machinery seems sensible enough. I'd be OK if we used him to hurry a Wonder in Lyons such as The Parthenon or Shwedagon Paya if we were prepared to research Aesthetics. There are a lot of good technology choices now; Code of Laws and Construction seem to me to stand out.

Cottages!!!

Our Workers should be pretty tied up I'd imagine with Plantations, but I'm fine with Cottages around Paris. Vandal looks like a production city to me (Cows, Rice, Copper, three Hills) so I'd not Cottage around it, Marseilles could make a reasonable farm with five food resources, but otherwise the rest of 'the jungle zone' looks like home for commerce hubs and we should just check food counts and chain irrigation options on where Farms vs. Cottages should be established. I'd suggest we can plan to chain irrigate from the west of the silks upwards to Vandal's Rice and around Marseilles if we do want to make it a farm:

 

[Meiz]

I am envisaging we take out Mali with Catapults, Crossbows and Macemen, but for the time being firming up forces along the Khmer border would seem more urgent.

Yes, why make the invasion harder when we have much better forces available soon?

Our Workers should be pretty tied up I'd imagine with Plantations, but I'm fine with Cottages around Paris. Vandal looks like a production city to me (Cows, Rice, Copper, three Hills) so I'd not Cottage around it, Marseilles could make a reasonable farm with five food resources, but otherwise the rest of 'the jungle zone' looks like home for commerce hubs and we should just check food counts and chain irrigation options on where Farms vs. Cottages should be established. I'd suggest we can plan to chain irrigate from the west of the silks upwards to Vandal's Rice and around Marseilles if we do want to make it a farm:

Marseilles looks like the best GP farm we could get at the moment. I'm agreeing a lot lately

 

[grandad1982]

I agree to the agreeing!

Remember to put signs up to remind everyone the city specialisations. Also sign chain irrigation routes so no cottages need to be built over.

My view on tech goes CoL > Cat > CS. Hopefully we canb bulb Mach. If not then a forge and an eng in Paris might do the trick while we tech whatever. Cat before CS so we can get those cats out. If we swich research off for a bit post CS we can upgrade any axes etc to speed the war up.

If you can get another worker out this set....