One Last Roll of the Dice

[grandad1982]

My thoughts broadly mirror Cam H on this one.

Don't really mind what happens to the GMerc. Lots of gold might be nice for a later mass upgrade of some sort. If you don't to use the GE for IW than holding him for a Corp or SoL would be my favored approch. Not sure another GA right now is that worth it. As Cam says waiting abit for the GA would be fine.

The trade route from Corp isn't that great to be honest as we are Merc so don't get those sweet intercontinetal trades. I'd rather go Steel > Beeline Demoracy. Maybe a GA when SoL is up would be good as its like never losing Merc.

Production cities can kick there feet building wealth or using there food to run specs if we don't want to build to many units. Obviously Vandal with the HE should build units or its a waste.

FP in Hariharalaya as well at some point.

Also Meiz could you go through are new cities and sign them fopr there uses. Most seem to be Commerce to me except Yaspod which would make anice production city.

If we pop the GG then I don't think settling in Vandal is worth it. Maybe Paris or Rheims.

And....

Also....

Ummmm.....

Oh yer. Hope you had a lovely holiday Meiz!

 

[Cam_H]

'Yes' ... likewise, I hope you enjoyed your holiday.

Agree with grandad on much of his post too ... Corporation's +1 isn't worth too much while in Mercantilism, I concur. Using the Great Engineer on the Statue of Liberty is fine with me if Rheims (Ironworks to-be city) isn't earmarked to build it. If we do go after Corporation soon, then using him to hurry Wall Street could also be considered. I'm empathetic to Meiz's point on not using Great Engineers on hurrying National Wonders however, and the Statue of Liberty or merging into a production-oriented city is fine by me.

Generally it seems to me that we're entering our next rebuilding stage. A few of those Khmer cities will need some work, and I think we've still got quite a few technologies to work through before gearing up for war.

I'll re-float the proposal of Hermitage in Chartres so it can re-grab the lost Rice. I'm not sure if we see much use for Hermitage anywhere else (?).

 

[Meiz]

Preturn

There is way too much cities to list every separate build I did... But I mostly focused on economy buildings + christian temples and monasteries, and spreading Islam (shrine) and Christianity (AP hammers). Vandal concentrated on producing musket defenders for our coastal cities.

FP is started in Hariwhatever immediately. I tend to forget Hermitage in non-culture games, but Chartres could use one right now, so that's started as well.

Not sure if it's good play, but I halt growth in Paris and hire 5 scientists to get max benefit from Oxford. Science goes up over 50 bpt.

I have to repeat that I'm not a fan of building roads everywhere when we could use our workers to build much needed improvements...

Turn 1

GA over

I'll add some EP's towards Isabella, so we can see her demographics.

Turn 2

Sury attacks with a knight and kills our defending musket + flank kills one trebutchet. I miss a pike in our stack...

I try to beg 200 gold from Churchill, but for some reason he does not comply. Still managed to beg 180 gold from Mehmed. Yeess... you can trust us, "friend"...

Turn 3

Kill Sury's stack flawlessly and capture his last mainland city.



And with that, we have peace again.



Turn 4

Whip FP for 3 population.

Turn 5

"Mars..." produces a GS. I'll send him towards Paris to twindle his thumbs. I'd sacrifice him later for a golden age.

Turn 6

Steel -> Constitution. But we failed harbormaster quest, Nooooo!



Turn 7

I decide to sidetrack to Optics (2 turns) after all, so we can send GM to Korea quicker.

Turn 8

Rheims starts IW.

Turn 9

Continue to research Constitution.

Turn 11

Churchill uses his newly born GE for golden age. Good for you.

And now I remember to actually start to build a caravel

Turn 12

We vote Isabella to rule the AP. Mehmed was the contender, but he is pleased with us already.

Turn 13

Religious fanatic surprisingly wins the elections.

Turn 14

Renegoate deal with Churhill to cows for 13gpt. He seems to love them for some odd reason...

Turn 15

Truffles, yay!



Churchill has just started to research Economics, so we could wait a while and then trade Economics and Liberalism for Astronomy.

Once Democracy is in, SoL in Paris, partially rushed with a GE? Remember to do last whippings before adopting Emanicapation. I'm not a number cruncher, so you wiser people can probably tell if it's worth switching from Representation to Universal Suffrage as well.

Roster

grandad1982 - Up
Cam - On deck
Admiral Kutzov
Meiz - Please distrub regarding his playing

 

[Cam_H]

I've had a very quick look, and all seems to be going very well. Nice job.

So we'll trade for Astronomy in a few turns. Then where after Democracy? Corporation I'm guessing, so Djenne can get going on Wall Street?

 

[Meiz]

So we'll trade for Astronomy in a few turns. Then where after Democracy? Corporation I'm guessing, so Djenne can get going on Wall Street?

WS would have a huge impact on our economy, so Corporation next sounds fine to me.

Edit: Let's pray for that prophet for additional shrine

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Holding off for a later GA was a good choice. The plan to go for Demo and rush SoL is sound. Not sure if I missed it, but are we going Merc > FM when we free the slaves?

 

[grandad1982]

I think that we should go full Cottage Civics post GA. Just try to keep borders open so Merc isn't missed.

I'm pretty exited about my set even though its going to be economy building! Thats a good sign

Will try to scan the save tonight. My RL is very busy ATM.

Oh nice set Meiz. Going on holiday obviously suits you

Got it and will post a plan later/tomorrow.

 

[grandad1982]

Looked at the save a little. Will post my thoughts tomorrow.

I think Merc is better tham FM for us. I remembered we're pissing off all the AIs so no intercontinetal trade really.

 

[Cam_H]

Edit: Let's pray for that prophet for additional shrine

As Hinduism's spread to only six cities, it seems to me that we'd be just as well off merging the Great Prophet into Djenne and leveraging the Angkor Wat bonus ... but isn't this discussion point moot anyway; don't we want to use the next (assuming a non-Great Scientist) for a Golden Age?

... or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

As Hinduism's spread to only six cities, it seems to me that we'd be just as well off merging the Great Prophet into Djenne and leveraging the Angkor Wat bonus ... but isn't this discussion point moot anyway; don't we want to use the next (assuming a non-Great Scientist) for a Golden Age?

... or am I misunderstanding?

Do we want a quick or long term approach? If we pop a GP and want to go methodical, go for the shrine. If not, what Cam said.

I have to repeat that I'm not a fan of building roads everywhere when we could use our workers to build much needed improvements...

I'm paranoid. I "road up" for response to potential invasions. Also, I was keeping them (the workers) away from the borders while waiting for them to pop.

 

[Meiz]

As Hinduism's spread to only six cities, it seems to me that we'd be just as well off merging the Great Prophet into Djenne and leveraging the Angkor Wat bonus ... but isn't this discussion point moot anyway; don't we want to use the next (assuming a non-Great Scientist) for a Golden Age?

... or am I misunderstanding?

Earlier you mentioned that we should not burn non-culture preferred GP's for a golden age, and I just counted prophet as one of them

I agree with admiral that shrine would be better in long term, but not instantly. I was thinking that if we get a prophet soon, we should build a shrine, spread hinduism and use the next GP for golden age. But if the prophet does not show up soon, shrine is probably not worth it.

 

[Cam_H]

I see what you're saying, and it's a fair call.

Once Wall Street's built, that Shrine will be worth 18 per turn plus +1 point with a Great Prophet influence plus +4 and opens up Priest slots. As a merged Great Prophet, he's 15 per turn, 2 per turn, and 3 per turn under Representation. To me, not much between them and I'd lean towards and (for however long Representation lasts) over and in that city.

The issue however is the Golden Age.

Is it better to stick with Representation / Bureaucracy / Slavery / Mercantilism versus Universal Suffrage / Free Speech / Emancipation / Free Market ... and what's the impact of The Statue of Liberty on all of this? What is the impact on of this civic switch? How will this affect our future aspirations? What is the value of cash rushing our units, and how will losing Slavery slow us down. How does the timing of our scientific pursuits handshake with our production capabilities? I expect Admiral_Kutzov has done these calculations, and I expect to see an irrefutable answer to these points within 12 hours. Right now we have 14 Towns, and 66 Cottages / Hamlets / Villages, so I expect Emancipation will help enormously.

 

[grandad1982]

Ok spent a long time looking at the save, trying to see the future. Civomancy

Ok.

PPP

Lots of cities so no specifics here. Just carry on much as Meiz has (all the cities seem very nicely set up!).
Main production points of note will be finishing the Islam spread to our final city, spreading Hinduism (needs Monastarys) and spreading Christianity.
SoL in Paris part rushed.
More culture in Chartres.

Tech, Demo > Corp > (my speculation now) RP? > Steam? > Rail? > Combustion?

Going to switch Orleans to a straight production city I reckon. What do you think?

On GP, GA's and Civics switchs.

First off GP use. If a GProth is born I think Hindu shrine as this will be great if we switch to US at some point. Anything else (except a GSci) will be put aside for a GA.

Civics and any GA seem very linked to me so this is what my very basic numbers suggest.

Spoiler :

Rep > US. Rep is worth 300 beakers if all specs from Merc and SoL are scientists (this includes no other possible specs so the real figure is much higher, this is also pre any modifiers). US is worth 14 hammers as we stand.

Burea > FS. Burea is worth 38 commerce and 8 hammers in paris (lots of modifiers here as well, esp. sci). FS is worth 28 commerce (spread out)

We should do two civics switchs.
On the turn the GA is torched off we should go Slavery > Emancipation, to boost the number of towns quikley.
On the last turn of the GA we should Switch Burea > FS. If we felt rush buying would be helpfull then we can switch to US as well.

Stay in Merc and FR.

My feeling on US is that it would be ok to switch at the end of a GA but might be better to switch along with Merc > State Property at some later date.

With this in mind waiting a bit longer for a GA would work ok IMO.

Now for some long range musings on my part.

I saw this island. Can you say Invation Base for Korea?

Spoiler :

Lets wipe out Sury and Vassilise Mansa at some point. I also think once Mehmed is off our continent then we should Vassilise him.

After/whilst we take Mehmed we sould take Izzys mainland cities and her cities on the Mehmed shared Island (which we could keep or gift to Mehmed). From here we hit Korea (through England so there is no shared border to protect) and then Vasillise him as well. Etc.

Or whatever.

Might play tomorrow. If not then I'll have to wait till sunday most likely.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

I expect Admiral_Kutzov has done these calculations, and I expect to see an irrefutable answer to these points within 12 hours.

My answer was based on anecdotal evidence.

I had some initial misgivings about vassalizing, then I considered how long this game will take if we don't.

GD's plan seems sound.

Regarding the island jump off, would we be better off just taking the barb city of Bactrian?

 

[Meiz]

You all are so much better at making long term plans. I feel like I'm usually able to decide victory condition, couple of next techs and sometimes who to kill next...

...fortunately we have more people in the roster than just me

Main production points of note will be finishing the Islam spread to our final city, spreading Hinduism (needs Monastarys) and spreading Christianity.

Probably no need to waste production on Hinduism until we actually get the prophet (which I have my doubts)

Going to switch Orleans to a straight production city I reckon. What do you think?

Fine by me.

Regarding the island jump off, would we be better off just taking the barb city of Bactrian?

Wouldn't it be better to choose both

 

[Meiz]

Sorry for the double post.

More culture in Chartres.

Christ monastery -> temple (ap hammers) -> theathre and we should be good to go.

Tech, Demo > Corp > (my speculation now) RP? > Steam? > Rail? > Combustion?

I assume we're going to trade Astronomy with Churchill? Salon's would do good for us. I was also thinking that Biology is only two techs away and could be very very good for us.

Civic switch plan sounds good to me.

 

[Cam_H]

I broadly agree with grandad on his suggestion of two switches, but I'm wondering if maybe we instead we 'bite the bullet' and endure a turn of Anarchy and make the Slavery > Emancipation change soon, but stick with Bureaucracy, Representation and Mercantilism for now? Get those Cottages / Villages / Hamlets developed before making the bigger switch later on within a Golden Age?

grandad also mentioned State Property, and I'd be keen on that, especially with the free Great Spy and The Kremlin both being useful. We're wanting to push Scientific Method towards the back of our technology pursuits because of its obsoleting impact, but as both Isabella and Mehmed are only one or two tech's away from Communism, it might be one to watch?

Along similar lines, Meiz also proposes Biology, and I figure that if we're going to get Scientific Method for Communism, we may as well throw Biology in the mix ... then back to getting to Destroyers and Infantry!

Chartres shouldn't need a lot more culture. From 1420AD the Rice tile was 43% French, and at 1490AD it's back up to 48% French, so I go along with Meiz's proposal there.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

<dons 's advocate hat>

Wouldn't it be better to choose both

I'd vote no. Pick one or the other. Both are junk. We need to defend whichever we pick.

Likewise on Communism. Do we really need that GSpy? We can go State Property anytime we want to. If we manage our wars correctly, do we really need the Kremlin?

Along similar lines, Meiz also proposes Biology, and I figure that if we're going to get Scientific Method for Communism, we may as well throw Biology in the mix ... then back to getting to Destroyers and Infantry!

why do we need Bio? We're freeing the slaves, so why do we need the +1 farms if we're not whipping and converting to cottage economy?

My choice for tech path is Demo > Corp > RP > Rifling. Go on Mehmed when we have rifling. Churchill is a concern cause of the Grenadiers, but I wasn't thinking of a long war.

Merc v. FM boils down to the question of "How many specialists do we need"? Especially if we're going cottage.

I'd drop the EP down to 1 or zero on mehmed. He's got 3 Lbs and a cat in the city closest to us. Rifles will make short work of his mainland cities. Bottom line, do we really care about his offshore stuff?

On war, all we have to do is take Mehmed off the mainland and survive some AI invasion.

IMO, we're getting too far in front of ourselves. Then again, I'm an idiot. If we focus, our goals are infantry and destroyers and how we get there.

 

[Cam_H]

Some good questions.

Do we need the Great Spy from Communism?:

No. We do however have a former Khmer city that has a Scotland Yard, so with a Jail and other espionage buildings, plus a merged Great Spy, it could keep our espionage ticking along behind the scenes. It's icing, not the cake. Otherwise, yet another Golden Age might be nice.

Should we go for State Property? :

I'm less in love with State Property than many other players, but I do evisage that we're going to hit the Ottomans, Spanish, Koreans, (and possibly the English if we have to ftw) in pretty quick succession, and I'd like to keep our economy afloat during this time ... especially if we'll be cash rushing units.

Do we really need The Kremlin? :

This one does have appeal. I believe that we're extraordinarily well placed to win this game (there - I said it! ), and can live without it, but it provides a big discount on cash-rushed troops. We could very well capture it of course, but I can see a lot of benefit by building it so we have it for sure - especially if we're going to horde cash after Infantry / Destroyers become buildable.

Why do we really want Biology? :

We'll still presumably want to run extra specialists, even under a cottage-focussed empire. It's a juicy tech' to support our cities, but I'm inclined to push it down on the priority list.

Why not Rifling > War with Ottomans? :

I'm going with the group verdict here. I don't know if he'll capitulate after we take those four cities or not. I envisaged that we'd get all of our 'ducks lined up' first, and then take on the other nations in quick succession with a massive modern-ish army-navy. As far as I'm concerned, it's up to you guys if you want to take on Mehmed before the time of Infantry / Destroyers or not.

Worried about Churchill's Grenadiers against our Rifles? :

He won't declare at Pleased, so we should presumably aim to keep him there. I'm not even sure that we'll ever fight him if we can get the rest to fold.

Weighing up Mercantilism vs. Free Market? :

While we're in Representation, I'm inclined to stick with Mercantilism. As I suggest, I think that we can swap into Emancipation now / soon, but wait for a while as the Cottages grow before the Universal Suffrage / Free Speech civics. Whether Free Market is better than State Property in time, I guess we'll have a look, if we even go after Communism in the first place as Admiral questions.​

Just my response, but I'm happy to talk all of these points out more.

 

[grandad1982]

I don't see any merit in FM untill we have at least a couple of vassels as everyone will be closed borders with us soon. Apart from Churchill I guess.

I'll check later but a lot of this discustion probably effects the next set more than mine.

I think Emanca switch is 3 turns or anarcy.....