"One unit per one tile" strategy thoughts

I hope eventually by CIV 10 at least they allow units to attack together rather than separate. The combat dynamics just are silly and have been for awhile. Forming a combined force of x% ranged, x%melee, x%mounted, x%artillery, x%specops which attacks as one force versus the other team's combined force makes the most sense long term.

This is the way it really works. Not this whole mace vs. longbow 1 on 1 crap that is the predominant thing in the current game.
 
I hope eventually by CIV 10 at least they allow units to attack together rather than separate. The combat dynamics just are silly and have been for awhile. Forming a combined force of x% ranged, x%melee, x%mounted, x%artillery, x%specops which attacks as one force versus the other team's combined force makes the most sense long term.

This is the way it really works. Not this whole mace vs. longbow 1 on 1 crap that is the predominant thing in the current game.

I think what you suggest is too convoluted, and probably not much fun.
 
Herfm... it can be done relatively simply, but you're beering towards an RTS too much, and Sid has perfectly stated that it's a turn-based, tile-based game, much like a traditional board game.
 
So, "one unit per tile" makes sense when you expand what "one unit" means.

"One unit" becomes "what your civilisation can support in the field in a given unit of battle area".

At low-tech levels, "one unit" would be what can forage off that terrain (read: kill/tax peasants and take their stuff), plus what you can supply remotely. If you concentrate your troops more densely, they end up starving, or even just running into disease problems.

As economic, transportation and agriculture tech advances, your ability to provide supply to armies in the field improves -- which means "one unit" becomes more troops.

By the modern day, the "one unit" max size might be enough infantry to saturate the entire tile with trenchwork.


Sid freely admits that his game designs prioritize gameplay over realism. Yes, they try to be realistic up to a point, but realism is a relatively low priority, and never more so than in Civilization, which fits the whole of human history in to the same space he also fit one narrow topic, such as running a railroad or being a 17th century Carribean pirate captain.

If you're a fan of any version of Civ, you've already overlooked a long list of other "unrealistic" elements. Whatever Civ5 may have to offer, it surely is not going to jump the tracks and become a hyperrealistic sim game.


- Sirian
 
The "one unit per resource" also brings to mind strategically interesting games like Diplomacy, as does the "one unit per hex".

In Diplomacy, the early game was one of moving around for advantage and going after undefended resources. By mid/late game, you could form nearly full unit barriers, which you'd win by being able to generate a larger front than the enemy and attacking around the rear.

Supposition for a tactically deep Civ5 game:

Units are cheap to build at "novice" status. Building "more experienced" units might be possible, but if so, it costs larger and larger amounts of time/resources.

Resources are what determines what military force you can field.

Units are reasonably expensive to support, to encourage disbanding of units between wars.

Wars will be fought on fronts -- once the front is broken, the losing side has time to rebuild many of the lost units and set up another front before the attacking side can wipe out the empire.

These new units will be novice, and reduced in numbers by the resources that the advancing army overruns before they come on-line. So the next line of defence won't be as strong. On the other hand, the supply lines of the attacking army will get longer, and bringing in new troops to replace fallen ones will take longer.
 
Once more, instead of allowing one unit per resource, that should be moddable, setting X units per resource, or X resources per unit. So a battleship would need double the equivalent of oil than a destroyer does.
 
One ( or X units, doesn't matter for the argument ) unit per resource requires that ALL the units need resources for being minimally effective in the sense you are describing, Yakk ( otherwise you can and should spam the resourceless units to cover the precious resource limited ones ). That is a bad omen ... it is not hard to imagine what it would happen to those civs that by acident didn't got much of resources ( that is probably the reason why all civ versions so far always had some resourceless units... ). And BtW what would happen to those resource-limited units if you lost the resource source ( either by sabotage, bombimg, sell out of the resource or simple enemy conquer ) ? They disapear on thin air , like the air units in BtS when you hit the air units cap ?
 
One ( or X units, doesn't matter for the argument ) unit per resource requires that ALL the units need resources for being minimally effective in the sense you are describing, Yakk ( otherwise you can and should spam the resourceless units to cover the precious resource limited ones ). That is a bad omen ... it is not hard to imagine what it would happen to those civs that by acident didn't got much of resources ( that is probably the reason why all civ versions so far always had some resourceless units... ). And BtW what would happen to those resource-limited units if you lost the resource source ( either by sabotage, bombimg, sell out of the resource or simple enemy conquer ) ? They disapear on thin air , like the air units in BtS when you hit the air units cap ?
That just requires a reasonable resource density on the map.

The density of resources on the map for a given era ends up determining the density of units in that era.

In Civ4, there was about 1 iron resource per civilisation in the game, roughly. This was intended to make iron something to contend over.

Imagine if the game intends for there to be 5 horse archer, 10 infantry, and 5 archers per side in the ancient era... Then the game would seed the map with 5 horse, 10 metal and 10 "yew" resources per side, possibly with code to make the placement reasonably uniform.

A given civilisation might end up finding 7 yew, 2 horses and 13 metal. They might choose to make 2 light cavalry (using 1 horse+1 metal each), 7 archers, and 11 infantry with those resources.

The point is that the density of units is a function of the density of resources.

On top of that, add in "resource multipliers" -- imagine cities that "own" mines being able to spend production on upgrading the mine, that might take half an era to build. Now that mine produces 2 metal resources -- and can support 2 infantry!

This still leaves the number of troops you can field to be a function of what resources are on the map, as even if you generate a nigh-infinite production city, you don't have the tech to build Level 3 mines (to get 3 metal from the mine). At the same time, you just spend production on ... being able to get more infantry.

The nearby high-population city now produces the infantry, using the resources from your mining-town.

At the same time, you have lots of incentive to build a force to take over that tasty resource on the other side of the boarder, because taking that resource gives you the ability to field more units...

Anyhow, if they have the idea of "resource multipliers", that allows them to independently control both the density of resources and the number of units on the world map by era and technology independently.

...

The idea of having a variable resource:unit ratio is probably a good one. This allows battleships to use the same resources as mechanised infantry. It would also allow them to turn "forests" into a resource -- you might need 5 forests or 10 jungles per archer unit you build (and there might not be a "yew" resource needed).

...

Making units go obsolete becomes interesting. In civ4, when resources go obsolete, it happens gradually -- new units don't need the old resources that often. So you upgrade units away from the resources, and you stop caring about them.

But with 1 unit per resource, it becomes tempting to "keep around" your horse archers, simply because it doesn't take any resources that your tanks require!

And we don't want horse archers running around on modern battlefields. :)

...

If the resource was lost, I would imagine the unit(s) would have their max and current HP decrease, and one would die after a certain number of turns, representing supply shortfalls.
 
@Yakk

Unless you enforce something like the Balanced option in Civ IV as mandatory, some civs will surely get screwed by the distribution of resources by pure randomness. Not mentioning that they can be in close range, but inacessible ( say, with inacessible tiles on the way or in a island offshore ). Then what? Or you force civs to die just because they didn't started in the right place with early resources ( or failed to grab them in usable time ) or you need to create a group of resourceless units to give those guys a chance ( like it was done in all the previous civ versions ) and, by definition, resourceless units can't be bound to a certain X units per resource :D. This does not happen in the games you quoted: all of the big players start with oil and such from turn 0 on, not mentioning that you don't have to tech anything to know where those resources are in the map and that you start with a standing army...

Now, if you have a group of resourcessless units combined with a group of resource constricted units, what will happen? One of this two: or the resourceless units are quite strong ( thus giving a civ with a bad start a chance to make it through until the next resource discovery tech ), that will encourage the people that has the resources to also spam there ( to save the precious units that need the resource ), making the unit limit of the resource close of meaningless, or the resourceless units are not strong enough to be appealing for campaign mode. But if they are not strong enough for that, they most likely aren't good enough for defense as well, making it meaningless to have them in the first place ( note , this assumes no exceptions to 1 unit/tile rule ... if you make some exception to some tiles ( say, forts or cities ), things are a little diferent in detail, but the core argument stands ).

Other argument I could develop is that capping units to resources heavily favours bigger empires and coumpound even more the hard-to-erase "big empire trumps small" and the "expand fast and kill everyone in reach ( aka early rushes )" logics that Firaxis has been trying unsucessfully to get rid off for a long time. A bigger empire means almost necessarily more resources, that means a bigger army ... so the best thing to do is to get big fast and to use being big to get bigger :p That would definitely be a drawback from Civ IV, where even in OCC you would still have a chance of winning a war...

To be fair, the only reasonable way I can see of using resources to cap the military in a game like Civ is to not cap the units to the resources you have, but to decrease heavily their efficiency if the resource is scarce ( worse metal, bad horses, bad quality gas that kills the engines more than makes them run... ). That would be fairer ( I might prefer to have a lot of units with bad quality weapons or little units with good quality weapons ) and would still limit the urge of spamming infinite units based on a single mine.

Note that I'm not contradicting any of what you said in your later post. There are a lot of good ideas there. But that does not change the facts I stated above: capping units to resource numbers makes early rushes more appealing and to be minimally effective it has to be complete ( otherwise people will still spam resourceless units ), a thing that screwes civs by random ("no copper? Regen..." ). That is why I think it is a bad idea.
 
@Yakk
To be fair, the only reasonable way I can see of using resources to cap the military in a game like Civ is to not cap the units to the resources you have, but to decrease heavily their efficiency if the resource is scarce ( worse metal, bad horses, bad quality gas that kills the engines more than makes them run... ). That would be fairer ( I might prefer to have a lot of units with bad quality weapons or little units with good quality weapons ) and would still limit the urge of spamming infinite units based on a single mine.

What about diminishing returns? Add 100% to the base upkeep per X units using a certain resource. Suppose that for the scale of the game X is 3. 3 Horse hexes is 3 horsemen. The 4th, 5th, and 6th horse cost 2 each for a total of 9 for 6 horsmen. The 7th, 8th, and 9th horsemen cost 3 horses each, for a total of a whopping 18 horses to support 9 horsemen. X Could be modified per map size.

This would give large empires the edge they deserve while allowing small empires to compete. Thoughts?
 
@Yakk

Unless you enforce something like the Balanced option in Civ IV as mandatory, some civs will surely get screwed by the distribution of resources by pure randomness. Not mentioning that they can be in close range, but inacessible ( say, with inacessible tiles on the way or in a island offshore ). Then what? Or you force civs to die just because they didn't started in the right place with early resources ( or failed to grab them in usable time ) or you need to create a group of resourceless units to give those guys a chance ( like it was done in all the previous civ versions ) and, by definition, resourceless units can't be bound to a certain X units per resource :D. This does not happen in the games you quoted: all of the big players start with oil and such from turn 0 on, not mentioning that you don't have to tech anything to know where those resources are in the map and that you start with a standing army...
Imagine if there is a resource that can be used to build a military unit in the ancient era every, say, 12 tiles.

Capital cities might come with a free resource (to give you an initial unit), and twice the resource density nearby.

The average city controls 19 tiles. A capital plus 3 other cities then comes to an average of 9 military resources, just using their "fat cross". Even settling blind, this civilisation would have ~4 to ~14 military resources 19 times out of 20 statistically.

Add in the ability to settle not-blind, and a civilisation being completely resourceless becomes less likely.
Now, if you have a group of resourcessless units combined with a group of resource constricted units, what will happen?
Having an uncapped type of unit breaks the game.

If you must have that kind of unit, you can cap it by civilisation, by city (imagine if each city can support 1 militia unit), by era, or economically (make it cost lots to support).
Other argument I could develop is that capping units to resources heavily favours bigger empires and coumpound even more the hard-to-erase "big empire trumps small" and the "expand fast and kill everyone in reach ( aka early rushes )" logics that Firaxis has been trying unsucessfully to get rid off for a long time. A bigger empire means almost necessarily more resources, that means a bigger army ... so the best thing to do is to get big fast and to use being big to get bigger :p That would definitely be a drawback from Civ IV, where even in OCC you would still have a chance of winning a war...
Bigger empires might run into economic problems, like in Civ4. It isn't hard to imagine a system that doesn't "break down" in the iron age period (in civ4, coinage + courthouse is sufficient to break the high-difficulty effective population cap).

Fielding troops far from supply might run into problems.

Together with big, far flung empires running into economic problems, that would prevent an early game "super-rush" from dominating: you could grow to some controlled size in a given era, growing any further renders you economically weak and likely to be dominated in later eras (as far-away empires who stay smaller out tech you).

The "ideal size" of an empire could grow as the game progresses. The AI could be aware of this, and try to grow to such an ideal size (with the winners expanding, and the losers being swallowed up as eras pass).

Players would then engage in multiple eras worth of wars of conquest -- an ancient one against your local opponents, then a iron age one to grow in that age. In each era, as your social infrastructure improves, so does your ideal imperial size. Until in the modern era, it becomes economically feasible to engage in world war...
To be fair, the only reasonable way I can see of using resources to cap the military in a game like Civ is to not cap the units to the resources you have, but to decrease heavily their efficiency if the resource is scarce ( worse metal, bad horses, bad quality gas that kills the engines more than makes them run... ).
That still produces "oceans of units".

With 1 unit per tile, spammable units make the game silly, because you get oceans of them...

Of course, you can just have the resource the oceans use being gold.
Note that I'm not contradicting any of what you said in your later post. There are a lot of good ideas there. But that does not change the facts I stated above: capping units to resource numbers makes early rushes more appealing and to be minimally effective it has to be complete ( otherwise people will still spam resourceless units ), a thing that screwes civs by random ("no copper? Regen..." ). That is why I think it is a bad idea.
You are basing this off of civ 4 resource density.

No copper happens pretty often in civ 4, because if you have 15 civs, there are about 15 copper on the entire planet. Placed randomly.

If, instead, there is (say) 80+ copper on the planet, even placed randomly, then the chance that you have no copper drops massively. You might only have 2 or 3, while a neighbour might have 5 or 6 -- but there will be some copper.
 
Speculation: You guys seen the screenshots? They look like they are heavy on the resources?
 
About the "oceans of units", couldn't they make it like the armies in Civ3, where the number of armies was limited by the number of cities you had?
 
That would just be broken; small empire has 5 units, empire twice as big has 10 units and smushes smaller empire into the ground with a larger number of units, unless defender has alot of advantages (in which case the larger empire will win through out production). Bigger is always better, strikes again!
 
Wait a second... how do you switch 2 units? I'd make a diagram but it's a lot harder to represent hexes than squares with x's.
 
I really liked the idea that someone brought up of your military size being relative to your population. Perhaps with certain social policies you can increase the percentage that can be enrolled in the army?

Larger empires would, for example, have to favour policies that helps them to administer their holdings without going bankrupt - which would entail a lower percentage of the population being available for military service. On the other hand, a smaller empire would be able to forgo the admin benefits and enlist more of their population - thus closing the numbers gap somewhat.

Maybe you can only recruit from cities that have been culturally assimilated? I.e. that newly conquered city will not be providing any soldiers initially and your empire size can quickly become too large for your military to adequately protect.

As for the "one unit per tile" and complaints about a front not being realistic for pre-industrial/gunpowder warfare... is it really that important? Getting away from the monotonous SOD style would far outweigh any "realism" issues.
 
@Yakk

You have some points... obviously you can cap non-resource units to city , civ or whatever and that would mitigate the problem ( not solve it, though ). Obviously it would deepen the issue with smaller civs unless it is a limited ammount per civ ( and that really doesn't make much of sense anyway ).

On the "ocean of units" : you can still produce "oceans of units" with 1 unit per tile systems ( and it is still a better idea to outnumber the enemy in those games, even with crap units )... it just forbids you of having 2 units on the same tile after all ( and most likely only in the end of the turn ,to mitigate clogs ) And you can always fill your enemy land when your land is not enough .... in a system like that the only real unit cap is the size of the map ( and I'm betting that there will be unit carriers, atleast for the sea, to make things worse ;) ). OFC you can bound it to other external variables , like making them far/less expensive or link them to the number/pop of cities, but then you are surely creating issues with less standart map sizes or number of civs in map ( the same ones that already plague Civ IV and Civ III ) or simply making the bigger civs even more powerful that they would be if all the civs could make unlimited units...

On the resource density: changing it does not change much in the issues we are discussing here... it simply changes things from one civ having one resource and the other none just by luck to one having 2 and other 15, just by luck. And if you introduce economical strain to try to avoid the rushes, in fact you will only replace rush to keep for rush and raze ( or some hybrid of those two policies, as we already have in Civ IV as a almost cookie cutter strat ) as the policy to have by the guys that start with early military resources ( especially if there is a early method of making things faster , as there always were in Civ games ( for very good reasons. otherwise the game would take ages to liftoff ) ), even with barbs and minors around. And again, this is another thing that is hard to level perfectly: too much economical strain and you are forcing a OCC for everyone , too litle and it's the rushers paradise.

@AlpsStranger

That would definitely cap a standing army seriously. But I'm pretty sure that in war anyone would prefer having 4 highly expensive units than 3 units at normal cost as long as they could sustain it during the war... but it would be a elastic cap and that alone makes it better for gameplay than a hard cap ( it is the oposite for the coders , but I'm not part of the coder team of Civ V :D )

@Rhygar

I just hope we will not pass from the monotuous SoD to the monotuous "bigger line wins" .The SoD was only a issue because there was no real cap, elastic or not , to it's size. The same can happen with lines ( ok, a bigger line does not get better with size in the same way a SoD does, but having a bigger line than the enemy always pays up as long as we are talking of 1-unit per tile systems and units of the same order of combat strength )
 
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