Sanaz
Gorilla Joe
answered in an earlier post on this thread by :
Only 1 leader possible from any given elite
- Thread starter etj4Eagle
- Start date
answered in an earlier post on this thread by :
So how is everyone going to handle this?
I think the best way would be to send these units on a suicide mission. Unless there is a shortage of troops, I see no value in holding them for the next upgrade. And in the case of Swordsmen, they will never be able to produce a leader.
In my games, I find myself with a lot of elite swordsmen. I have kept them, even into the modern era, so as to finish off weaken units in the hopes of generating a leader. I have carefully sent them in and out of battles on the railroad system. Now, I see that all of my careful attention actually DECREASES the chance of getting a leader as well as increasing the cost per turn of my military.
I think the best way would be to send these units on a suicide mission. Unless there is a shortage of troops, I see no value in holding them for the next upgrade. And in the case of Swordsmen, they will never be able to produce a leader.
In my games, I find myself with a lot of elite swordsmen. I have kept them, even into the modern era, so as to finish off weaken units in the hopes of generating a leader. I have carefully sent them in and out of battles on the railroad system. Now, I see that all of my careful attention actually DECREASES the chance of getting a leader as well as increasing the cost per turn of my military.
Dralix
Killer of threads
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- Dec 28, 2001
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- 2,407
I suppose one could simply attack with the available unit that would give the best chance of winning, rather than turning the combat system into a methodical, systematic way of churning out leader after leader.
Or, if one wants to churn out leader after leader, I would suggest holding your "already produced a leader" units in reserve somewhere until they can be upgraded, then send them back to the front.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
Yes, we knew that. I'll have to explain all my jokes from now on so that nobody will take them seriously. In fact, "lies, damn, lies, and permutations" is a way of saying that stating probabilities of permutations can be misleading.
kring
Asst Cook & Bottle Washer
You can't count on getting a GL, so making it part of a strategy is unreliable. Consider how many GL's you have ever had in all your games. How many games have you played that never resulted in even in one GL. I have already used GL's fairly quick when I had them so I didn't do the holding on thing many succumbed to, esp since the general belief was you could only have 1 at a time. I have had almost as many GL's from the 1.17 first day patch bug through goody huts as I have won in battle. Now, that I have 1.21 patch, I haven't gotten a GL that way.
I made a mod that I am currently revising due to the 1.21 patch, which allowed a buildable GL. The AI will use it occasionally to hurry Wonders as well as build Armies; this was tested using the multi under 1.17.
Sanaz
Gorilla Joe
I'll definitely fight barbarians to build up a bunch of elites, then go to war specifically to try to get a GL - even if I need to get them on a boat and travel to get it. I like fighting, and I like the satisfaction of getting a GL to rush a particular wonder. Once I get one, I'll stop fighting and sign a peace treaty. So, it's a strategy that I like, but I know it's not for everybody (and I know it's not reliable, or even smart
). I've never had a game without a GL - they aren't that hard to get with perseverance - now that we know the odds and limitations, it should be a little easier.I do like some of the ideas on other threads about alternate ways to generate GL's through more peaceful means for players who don't like the idea of having to fight all the time.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
I have found a way to manage the elites -- to keep track of which ones can create a leader, and which ones are "impotent." I upgraded my obsolete carbon-based brain to a new silicon-based one. Now I know which ones are which at all times, since my new brain does not forget. In fact, they don't need to display tanks and warriors with different graphics. Once a unit is created, I will always remember what its properties are and where it is.
And that's not all! I have found better strategies for winning with my new brain. There was a rival civ on the exact opposite size of the huge world (256X256). As soon as I got 101 workers to fight his 100 mech infantry, I knew "compared to these guys, our military is strong" and so I immediately declared war and sent my "glorious armies" to attack.
And that's not all! I have found better strategies for winning with my new brain. There was a rival civ on the exact opposite size of the huge world (256X256). As soon as I got 101 workers to fight his 100 mech infantry, I knew "compared to these guys, our military is strong" and so I immediately declared war and sent my "glorious armies" to attack.
It happen to me once ( i m pretty sure i was not hallucinating), i remenber i put a horseman on a mountain at a chokepoint to prevent barbarian invasion and after a lots of fight ( defensive fight) i got a leader from this horsman against barbarian. The odd are much lower than 1/16 but its not 0. I dont have a savegame to prove that, maybe Firaxis could give use another usefull, very welcome information about that.
p.s. i was playing original version against only 1 a.i.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
I had 50 victories with an "unused" elite horseman against a barb today and it didn't produce a leader. Could be a coincidence, but I am starting to believe that it is impossible (in patch 1.21f) to get a leader by killing a barb.
Summary:
1) Only 1 possible leader from a single unit after it becomes elite unless it is upgraded.
2) After each subsequent upgrade it can generate one leader if it becomes elite again. It is possible for a single unit to create 6 leaders if it generates a leader in each of the following roles: spearman->pikeman->
musketman->rifleman->inf->mech inf.
3) My opinion is, and *so far* test results agree, that it is impossible to generate a leader by killing a barb.
Maybe etj4Eagle will try it.
Summary:
1) Only 1 possible leader from a single unit after it becomes elite unless it is upgraded.
2) After each subsequent upgrade it can generate one leader if it becomes elite again. It is possible for a single unit to create 6 leaders if it generates a leader in each of the following roles: spearman->pikeman->
musketman->rifleman->inf->mech inf.
3) My opinion is, and *so far* test results agree, that it is impossible to generate a leader by killing a barb.
Maybe etj4Eagle will try it.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
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- 7,475
sumthinelse and et4jEagle:
Thanx to you two and your relentless probing into the leader drought I now enjoy a plethora of leaders!
I don`t want to know how often I used an elit in an army over and over after it had already produced a leader....
Maybe this is one of the reasons why the 1-leader thing is there? So we cannot use our practically unbeatable army to generate them in exorbitant numbers?????
Thanx to you two and your relentless probing into the leader drought I now enjoy a plethora of leaders!
I don`t want to know how often I used an elit in an army over and over after it had already produced a leader....
Maybe this is one of the reasons why the 1-leader thing is there? So we cannot use our practically unbeatable army to generate them in exorbitant numbers?????
another funny thing that " now they dont allow human player to do"rev063
Chieftain
On the one-leader-per-elite issue:
Again, if it makes you feel better, disband your elite units after they create a leader.
Of course, this won't improve your chances of getting a leader, of course. Remember, the chance of generating a leader is an independent trial for each valid battle. (You remember what "independent" means, don't you? Or don't they teach this stuff in school anymore?)
That's why this whole discussion is so pointless. Knowing which of your units has generated a leader isn't going to get you any more leaders, assuming you attack with all your elite units in each turn. And if you don't, you're just wasting leader generation opportunities, and more fool you.
- rev
Again, if it makes you feel better, disband your elite units after they create a leader.
Of course, this won't improve your chances of getting a leader, of course. Remember, the chance of generating a leader is an independent trial for each valid battle. (You remember what "independent" means, don't you? Or don't they teach this stuff in school anymore?)
That's why this whole discussion is so pointless. Knowing which of your units has generated a leader isn't going to get you any more leaders, assuming you attack with all your elite units in each turn. And if you don't, you're just wasting leader generation opportunities, and more fool you.
- rev
On a slightly related side note I'd like to throw out a general hypothesis. The leader generated "flag" is just another promotion. Upgrading via barracks drops a better than elite unit's experience down to veteran. That's dropping one level in the case of normal elite units, and two for leader spawning elites. If true, marking elite units that have spawned leaders shouldn't be too hard and we can look forward to it in an upcoming patch. They could change the promotion name order from Conscript->Regular->Veteran->Elite->Elite to Conscript->Regular->Veteran->Elite->ELITE or something along those lines.
Knowing the difference between Elite and ELITE is very important. The true probability for generating a leader is independent but it's a conditional event:
P(Leader|Status=Conscript)=0
P(Leader|Status=Regular)=0
P(Leader|Status=Veteran)=0
P(Leader|Status=Elite)>0
P(Leader|Status=ELITE)=0
That first line is shorthand for "the probability of a leader, given that status is equal to conscript, is zero."
In the hopes of keeping the discussion civil, I'll leave it at that and forgo any school comments.
This would also imply that armies (since units within can be promoted) could in theory spawn as many leaders as they have units. The limit of 1 per makes total sense given the exploit Killer identified. Preventing unloading and reloading units from armies makes sense too.
I don't know how useful knowing the actual mechanism would be to know if I'm right. Care to comment Beer?
Knowing the difference between Elite and ELITE is very important. The true probability for generating a leader is independent but it's a conditional event:
P(Leader|Status=Conscript)=0
P(Leader|Status=Regular)=0
P(Leader|Status=Veteran)=0
P(Leader|Status=Elite)>0
P(Leader|Status=ELITE)=0
That first line is shorthand for "the probability of a leader, given that status is equal to conscript, is zero."
In the hopes of keeping the discussion civil, I'll leave it at that and forgo any school comments.
This would also imply that armies (since units within can be promoted) could in theory spawn as many leaders as they have units. The limit of 1 per makes total sense given the exploit Killer identified. Preventing unloading and reloading units from armies makes sense too.
I don't know how useful knowing the actual mechanism would be to know if I'm right. Care to comment Beer?
rev063
Chieftain
Knowing the difference between Elite and ELITE units is irrelevant. If you attack with all your Elites (and ELITEs) each turn, you have exactly the same expected number of generated leaders, than if you disbanded, moved, did not attack, promoted or slept with with your ELITE units.
In fact, do what you like with them, it makes no difference. There's no need to know which units have generated leaders already.
- rev
Sanaz
Gorilla Joe
Not always true, depending on personal strategy and situations. A Veteran can attack instead, becoming an Elite which can then become a leader. The Elite can go about other business (destroying improvements, capturing workers, disbanding, upgrading, etc.). There are times when you can only fight a certain number of battles in a turn (distance, number of opponents, or other factors dictate this), and you may want to maximize your chance of generating a leader in, say, 10 battles. If you had unlimited battles, it wouldn't matter, as you said. And this all comes down to palying style and preferences, really. Some of us just like figuring this stuff out, optimizing, and talking about it. Some just want to play and get on with it. The variety makes it more fun.
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