Only 1 leader possible from any given elite

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer


Mike, I`m sorry, but I know definately that i got leaders from armies several times.

I`ll post a savegame as soon as it happenes again.

Killer, I created an army with only one unit -- an elite that had not created a leader yet. After 30 victories, this unit hasn't created a leader yet. It gets less and less likely that it will ever create a leader after 30 tries, in my experience. So it looks like my testing agrees with Mike B.'s assertion that armies can't create leaders, so far. Maybe "normally" armies don't create leaders but you have found a bug?

Something in your game may be different from mine. Does your army that created the leader say "regular army" or "veteran army" or "elite army"? As I said above, I have never seen an "elite army." Could that be the difference?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sumthinelse

Something in your game may be different from mine. Does your army that created the leader say "regular army" or "veteran army" or "elite army"? As I said above, I have never seen an "elite army." Could that be the difference?

Hmm, strange. I usually load 1 elite, then veterans into my army, and I could swear I got leaders from that army. It says regular army, elite knight in Army, veteran Knight in Army... My units also get promoted, as they should...

Maybe I just remember this wrong, but i could swear I got leaders from Armies. maybe before 1.21????

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer



Hmm, strange. I usually load 1 elite, then veterans into my army, and I could swear I got leaders from that army. It says regular army, elite knight in Army, veteran Knight in Army... My units also get promoted, as they should...

Maybe I just remember this wrong, but i could swear I got leaders from Armies. maybe before 1.21????

I get promotions but no leaders so far. My army says "regular army." (How can it be "regular" when I created it in a city with a barracks?) Armies are definitely different from normal units. They give different animations, don't conform to the rule about creation in a city with barracks, etc. etc. Maybe if it was a "veteran army" it could create leaders? Mike B. says no way, and so far everything he says agrees with my and ejt4Eagle's testing.

It's a little hard for me to test this in a real game because I hardly ever use armies. I created this one just to test with.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I`ll do some checking now.....

I still have a complete 1.16 version sitting around on an unused PC so I`ll check that, too.

 

[kring]

Another possibility: what if the Army was created in the Military Academy? I don't usually build too many Armies, but someone mentioned this possibility at another forum due to the way Mike originally said why Armies could not create Leaders.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by kring
Another possibility: what if the Army was created in the Military Academy? I don't usually build too many Armies, but someone mentioned this possibility at another forum due to the way Mike originally said why Armies could not create Leaders.

You might be on to something. I used a leader to create my army that seems unable to create a leader. Maybe the mil. academy always creates "veteran" armies? I'll load a game that has a mil. academy to see if "that kind of army" can create a leader.....

Killer, you usually create armies with the mil. academy, correct?

If this turns out to be true (we really don't know yet!!!!), then we would have:

2 kinds of elites -- those that can create a leader and those that can't

>>>> The following is pure speculation!!!!!!.....

2 kinds of armies -- those that can create a leader and those that can't, and I suppose an army that could create a leader would also have to have the first kind of elite in it and have that unit kill an enemy unit and then apply the 1/12 or 1/16 odds.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by kring
Another possibility: what if the Army was created in the Military Academy? I don't usually build too many Armies, but someone mentioned this possibility at another forum due to the way Mike originally said why Armies could not create Leaders.

Nope. I tried an army created in the mil. academy ("veteran army"), put a recently-promoted elite tank into it, the one and unly unit in the army. It killed 20 cavalry units without creating a leader, even with the herioc epic.

<<<<< Disregard the following incorrect paragraph, see correction below in the ever-alert theniceone's note: >>>>

Now if it were possible to get a leader from this army, the odds of not doing it 20 times in a row with the heroic epic (11/12)^20 is 1 in 3 with 20 zeros after it.

So my results still agree with Mike B.

Killer, original character that he is, might also find some unique game condition that we don't understand yet. But if he has done it, it's not obvious to me how I can create a leader with an army. I think it's safe to say that you should not rely on an army creating leaders unless we can figure out how to do it.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
Killer, original character that he is, might also find some unique game condition that we don't understand yet. But if he has done it, it's not obvious to me how I can create a leader with an army.

Hehe, is that an insult or a compliment?

I`m starting to feel a little strange here, better go see a doctor........ because I`m absolutely sure armies could give leaders, but now, well

Mike B.: has there been a change since 1.16?????

sumthinelse: thanx for checking all this out; I`m far too busy right now

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by sumthinelse

Now if it were possible to get a leader from this army, the odds of not doing it 20 times in a row with the heroic epic (11/12)^20 is 1 in 3 with 20 zeros after it.

So my results still agree with Mike B.

Your math is way off. You're correct that the formula is (11/12)^20, but this number is as high as 17.5%. So you need a lot more than 20 battles to say anything for sure.

Even after 50 battles, the chance of not getting a leader is higher than 1%.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Your math is way off. You're correct that the formula is (11/12)^20, but this number is as high as 17.5%. So you need a lot more than 20 battles to say anything for sure.

Even after 50 battles, the chance of not getting a leader is higher than 1%.

Thanks. You are absolutely right about everything. My calculator slipped into some weird mode temporarily and I did not sanity-check. More tests wouldn't hurt.

Still, I suspect that I will not be able to create a leader from this army, just based on the experience I have had in similar trials.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer


Hehe, is that an insult or a compliment?

It's a complement from my point of view, but since I also consider myself an "original character," is a complement from me bad or good? I guarantee that some forum readers think researching leader-generation is stupid. I'm glad you are here on this forum, Killer, no kidding. Keep up the good work.

Since some of us have such original ways to play the game, we may find problems that would not be so obvious otherwise. One time I debugged a computer problem in a bank in a certain Asian city. The only way we could recreate the problem in the test lab was to record the exact network traffic at the bank itself and then play back the network traffic in the test lab! Sometimes the phenomenon will not happen without the whole environment.

I am keeping an open mind. Some problems (or unexpected results) are damned hard to get. Maybe you will create a leader with an army again....

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

well, sumthinelse, from you it is a compliment, that´s why I put the in.

I know about recreating things with Civ3, I once had two tank loss to spearman in a row, so i went to the save - and couldn´t recreate.... I guess it had something to do with that stone-age civ getting something for the last goodie hut - and that thing simply was different....

 

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Killer

Mike B.: has there been a change since 1.16?????

I don't believe so... I've checked all the different patch versions and the leader-generation code is the same in each one.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS


I don't believe so... I've checked all the different patch versions and the leader-generation code is the same in each one.

Thanx for checking!!!!!

 

[sumthinelse]

Killer, I tried the mil. academy army with only 1 elite 40 times. So if it could create a leader, it should be the same probability as attacking with a single elite unit. No leader. Keep in touch.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Hear, hear, sumthinelse, I`m starting to believe I need an appojntment with a brain doctor...

I tried getting a leader from an army and it didn`t work in 100 tries....

Well, to get the leader for the army took my 43 tires.... so much for 1/16......

I`ll continue trying, but could you please test my game if you get better results? i get the feeling leader generation *is* system dependent. What I`m suggesting is we take my game and both do the same combat (seed save off) 200 times. Then we compare how many leaders we get. I`ll stack like 10 elites, so even someone who`s lucky shouldn`t run out of them. Could we do this? Maybe with someone else, too????

 

[damunzy]

Originally posted by Killer
well, sumthinelse, from you it is a compliment, that´s why I put the in.

Awwwhhhhh, Group hug!!

On a serious note, I am willing to help. Give me the game and I will run it through.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer

I tried getting a leader from an army and it didn`t work in 100 tries....

Well, to get the leader for the army took my 43 tires.... so much for 1/16......

OK, you generated the leader after 43 *non-army* elite victories. Then you used the leader to create an army. You put in the army 100% elite units, none of which had generated a leader (because if some of the units in the army can't create a leader it lowers the odds), and with this army after 100 victories, no leader.

Could we do this? Maybe with someone else, too????

Hell, yes! Where is this game? I asked my wife if I could work on this and she asked if Killer was a boy or a girl. I told her that I don't think girls have names like "Killer." She finally said OK as long as it doesn't keep me away from my "higher priorities" from her point of view. I live in Bangkok, you are in Europe I guess, Pale Horse? I dont know but we could get some good overlap with different time zones.

My saved game has an army composed of a single elite tank that can attack a cavalry that has only one hit point. The tank hasn't lost yet but it hasn't created a leader either.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

you got it right, sumthinelse, I didn`t get a leader 42 times, then got in the next fight, then made it an army, put a fresh elite in it, rthen tried 100 times to generate a leader and failed. there was no used elite in the army...

It is a game with pairs of elite Knights, all of them fresh, stacked next to persian cities. There`s ROP so no fear of counterattacks before we start.... There is an elite Knight fortified in a town, don´t use him he ain`t fresh!!!

The army is one unused knight.

Nineveh can be changed to Heroic Epic in 1 turn so we can try that, too.

btw, getting the elites got me some funny combats. I needed 15, 14, 25, 33, 31, 16, 10, 22, 8, 1, 1, 6 tries, in this order.... a bit stringy, eh?


@ sumthinelse:

You got that right about the nick , though it was bestowed on me, not chosen, but I think they wouldn`t have called a girl Killer, rather Flyin' Chick or so It´s from a Falcon 4.0 community that sadly has disintegrated because too many people had too many bugs and there never was a proper patch.....

Give my regards to your wife, and tell her thanx for letting you do this!!!!

@ palehorse: Thanx

OK, here`s the game:

test game zipped

 

[LKendter]

Well I have played a ton of games, even the major leader happy LK21 - Always War, late game domination where the leaders were out of control, with 10+ armies. I never got a leader from an army.