Only 1 leader possible from any given elite

[etj4Eagle]

Originally posted by sumthinelse

Maybe etj4Eagle will try it.

Unfortunetly I am traveling for the next few weeks so new civ for me for a while . And for those complaining about wasted hours figuring things out, guess I am just a wacky engineer as I enjoyed doign teh investigation and finding out how things worked. Developers don't lay out all hte rule structures of a game as that takes away from some of its "mystery and enjoyment" factor.

rev063 I agree that one should be attacking with all their elites each turn. Since only attacking with just one elite is a big handicap to getting leaders itself. However, at the same time, knowing the which elite has spawned a leader is useful. As those that haven't get sent against the easy kill to reduce the chance they may be killed. And those that have, get sent instead against the hardened defenders and are used in the same manner as an offensive army (making use of their extra hit point).

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by rev063


If you attack with all your Elites (and ELITEs) each turn, you have exactly the same expected number of generated leaders, than if you disbanded, moved, did not attack, promoted or slept with with your ELITE units.

Absolutely wrong. A "used" or "impotent" elite, one that has already generated a leader, has zero chance of generating a leader. In one game I had almose 300 consecutive elite victories without generating a leader before I discovered how it works, because I was ataacking with, healing, and attacking again with, the same elite units which were "impotent."

 

[Craterus22]

Hey there et, I am an engineer too...

When I kick back to relax and play one of the cool games on my computer, I am not generally interested in troubleshooting someones undocumented "features".

When I said I felt bad about all those wasted man-hours it was more about feeling bad for all those fellow gamers/customers who were trying to enjoy playing a game but got sucked into a beta testing trial to "discover" why an element of the game did no t appear to be working properly.

There are tons of "puzzle/mystery" games out there for the people that are interested in the joy of discovery.

Civ3 should not have been one of them.

 

[bradbowen]

"the chance of generating a leader is an independent trial for each valid battle."

Not in the case of elites that have already produced a leader. In these cases it is a dependant trial. It is dependant on the previous production of a leader and the ramifications of said dependeancy is a reduction in the probablities to zero.

 

[Cruicky]

yor all lucky in all my hundreds of elite battles I've only ever recicved 4 leaders I mean 1/12 chance give me a break.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Cruicky
yor all lucky in all my hundreds of elite battles I've only ever recicved 4 leaders I mean 1/12 chance give me a break.

Maybe you were often using one of the 4 units that had already produced a leader again and again? Like when it was in an army and you tended to re-use it because the army gives you a higher chance at winning???? Happened to me! Since I know about the probelem, I have completely restructured my strategies - wars now go slower but I get lots more leaders!

And, to clarify: it is 1/16 unless with Heroic Epic or militaristic civ.

 

[damunzy]

Originally posted by Sanaz


answered in an earlier post on this thread by :

Yeah, this is what happens when you are reading one thread and then a similar one is opened....another reason why we try not to have duplicates on CFC.

I was last reading on page 3 of the leader drought thread....then I see this and don't realize that the title is different so I jump straight to page 3....and post something that look I didn't read the rest of the thread.

 

[Loopy]

Originally posted by rev063
Knowing the difference between Elite and ELITE units is irrelevant. If you attack with all your Elites (and ELITEs) each turn, you have exactly the same expected number of generated leaders, than if you disbanded, moved, did not attack, promoted or slept with with your ELITE units.

If you have more Elite units than you have battles to fight it matters. I have one Elite and one ELITE tank trying to take a city with only one defender. That is the only battle those units can fight this turn. My expected number of generated leaders is much lower if I can't differentiate between an Elite and ELITE tank.

Another case where it would matter is if you just spawn a leader and it is being walked back to a city . You cannot generate another leader while the leader is in play. Until the GL is used, it makes a lot more sense to risk ELITE units in your attacks and to hold back your Elite ones. Knowing the difference lets you keep your Elites alive and increases the expected number of GLs over the entire game.

(In this post, "Elite" is an elite unit that hasn't spawned a GL, and "ELITE" refers to one that has.)

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer


I don`t want to know how often I used an elit in an army over and over after it had already produced a leader....

Maybe this is one of the reasons why the 1-leader thing is there? So we cannot use our practically unbeatable army to generate them in exorbitant numbers?????

Yes, I too am getting a lot more leaders now that I know how it works. I am kind of a military "minimalist" in that I don't like to have a lot more units than I need eating up my money. Now I know when I need to build more veterans and start them on the road to becoming elites. It's still very tedious keeping track of the ELITE units though, and I think it's expensive to disband them.

Any day now I expect to hear appeals to make it harder to create leaders (make it 1 in 30 etc.)

In Genesis in the Bible everything was OK until they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. "sumthinelse - the tempter (or serpent if you read Milton) who ruined civ3 and seduced us from the Garden of Eden"?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
Any day now I expect to hear appeals to make it harder to create leaders (make it 1 in 30 etc.)

In Genesis in the Bible everything was OK until they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. "sumthinelse - the tempter (or serpent if you read Milton) who ruined civ3 and seduced us from the Garden of Eden"?

I can hear the appeals, too! But recently (since 1.21) i find the Ai using amries (and using them smartly) a lot, also rushing wonders, so I guess there`s no need to make them harder to get....

On the other hand: peacefull player are at a significant disadvantage, so maybe we need peacefull leaders now????

 

[Mike B. FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Loopy

This would also imply that armies (since units within can be promoted) could in theory spawn as many leaders as they have units. The limit of 1 per makes total sense given the exploit Killer identified. Preventing unloading and reloading units from armies makes sense too.

I don't know how useful knowing the actual mechanism would be to know if I'm right. Care to comment Beer?

Units in armies cannot spawn leaders because an army is already led by the leader that created it. Also, leaders cannot be spawned from combat with barbarians (this was not changed in a patch -- it has always worked this way).

 

[Qitai]

Thanks Mike!! I was just about to ask that =)
Another very useful information for leader generation =)

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS


Units in armies cannot spawn leaders because an army is already led by the leader that created it.

Mike, welcome back.

I am not sure exactly what this statement means, though. Does it mean:

1) That when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat?

2) That when an army wins a victory it can create one leader but only one, even though the army can have more than one unit in it? I suppose that the army would have to be "elite" but I don't think I have ever seen an elite army, although I have seen armies with elite units in them.

 

[Mike B. FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by sumthinelse


Mike, welcome back.

I am not sure exactly what this statement means, though. Does it mean:

1) That when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat?

2) That when an army wins a victory it can create one leader but only one, even though the army can have more than one unit in it? I suppose that the army would have to be "elite" but I don't think I have ever seen an elite army, although I have seen armies with elite units in them.

It means:
1) when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS


It means:
1) when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat.

Mike, I`m sorry, but I know definately that i got leaders from armies several times.

I`ll post a savegame as soon as it happenes again.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS


It means:
1) when an army wins a victory a leader can never be created as a result of such combat.

Mike,

Thanks for this and your other posts.

If my elite tank unit (never having created a leader before) destroys an army of horsemen in combat, can that victory spawn a leader for me?

(Changing the subject slightly.) For the record, I believe that civ3 has some improvements over civ2 that some of us take for granted. For example, in civ2 when I moved a unit from one railroad square to another connected railroad square a long distance away, the unit would invariably forget where it was going and get off the railroad. In civ3, this has been fixed as far as I can tell. So someone took the trouble to fix this bug and I appreciate it.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer


Mike, I`m sorry, but I know definately that i got leaders from armies several times.

I was going to test this but I can't remember which @#$% elite unit has not created a leader yet.....

 

[Mike B. FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by sumthinelse

If my elite tank unit (never having created a leader before) destroys an army of horsemen in combat, can that victory spawn a leader for me?

Yes, you can get a leader when you defeat an army in combat.

 

[JoeM]

Just thought I'd add nothing to the debate by saying that I often get a 'feeling' that predicts correctly that a leader is going to be produced prior to a given battle.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by JoeM
Just thought I'd add nothing to the debate by saying that I often get a 'feeling' that predicts correctly that a leader is going to be produced prior to a given battle.

He, been there, done that! Sometimes it`s been such a long dry stretch and I just *know* it will happen!

This time it`s gonna, happen, this time it will work......