Open competition: Earliest pyramids using philosophical civ and no stone

Eqqman said:
Okay, I have half an answer-

Let's say on turn X I have the production bar for the Oracle filled up. I click the end turn button. Now at the opening of turn X + 1 I watch the movie and select my free tech. Looking at the city, I already have 4 GPP accumulated. However, when I build the Forge, I don't have this benefit since I have yet to assign the Engineer to start the GE points.

That's what I've noticed. From my calculations, you really have 6 turns to complete the forge and guarantee a great engineer. If you wait 7, you'll tie the oracle and might get a great priest. 8 and you're guaranteed to get a great priest.
 
Somebody mentioned in here that although the Forge-building window is calculated at 8 turns, in practice it is shorter. I had the Engineer specialist in place at what I think was 4 turns after the Oracle went up and I had a tie with both cities hitting 100 GPP at the same time.

This was exactly my experience as well. I really think you only have a 3 turn window to ensure a great engineer. Pre-chop those forests, and ensure your city has grown to size 4...
 
Does anyone think the oracle build is possible with Alex? I've been trying, and it's kinda hard cuz of his starting techs.

I haven't tried this build yet, but what do you think:

Tech: Myst-medit-priest-mining-bronze-wheel-pottery-masonry

City 1: Settler-Oracle

City 2: Worker-Warrior-Warrior-Warrior-Warrior-Forge (start forge whenever oracle is done and chop pre-chopped forests and pop-rush for 2 pop to finish asap)

Sounds good in theory, but I've been getting to too late. I think it's partly cuz I forgot that fishing-wheel will also give pottery not just ag-wheel (i don't get fishing or pottery that early in my other games), and so i've been getting ag. But do think withough ag that your second city will get to size 4 in time?

also, do you think that starting with hunting, which doesn't factor in at all, hurts? i've found one benefit is that i usually land enough goody-huts that i don't run a deficit. do you think this affords us the opportunity to move more than 3 spaces from the capital? or do the additional worker turns still hurt too much?

any thoughts appreciated. i think alex would be ideal for what i want to pull off: specialist-driven domination, because he has philosophical for the econ and aggressive for the military. mao is my fall-back plan because organized is a good domination trait imo for the courthouses. the lack of aggressive for the military is noticeable, however.

also, on another note, do you think the 2nd GE should be used on the great library when the AI doesn't prioritize alphabet or lit? i'm thinking a better use of it would be to unlock machinery AND DON'T TRADE IT! this gives you xbows, and also 1/2 of maces. that means you only need to research through CoL (which you need anyways for courthouses) and CS (which you need anyways for irrigation) to get maces. thoughts?
 
AI does not prioritize GL if you prioritize Alphabet/Literature, especially if you are first to them. Otherwise it does, sometimes.
 
Yes, I think it may work. If you prioritize Alphabet/Literature, build GL in a normal way, then burn GE toward Machinery...

It could be extremely interesting if you test that in practice.
 
futurehermit said:
Does anyone think the oracle build is possible with Alex? I've been trying, and it's kinda hard cuz of his starting techs.

I've mentioned twice in this thread that I think the answer is yes. But he requires a start with the capital having access to seafood in the fat cross. Otherwise, neither of his starting techs provide any assistance and you'll be too far behind in the research you need to accomplish.

futurehermit said:
I haven't tried this build yet, but what do you think:

Tech: Myst-medit-priest-mining-bronze-wheel-pottery-masonry

City 1: Settler-Oracle

City 2: Worker-Warrior-Warrior-Warrior-Warrior-Forge (start forge whenever oracle is done and chop pre-chopped forests and pop-rush for 2 pop to finish asap)

Given seafood as I suggest, I would put the Wheel at the top of the research queue. City #1 will then have to make a Workboat as fast as possible. I think letting the second city get to size 4 can take too long unless it has access to a lot of food. If it will, then Workboat -> Settler -> Oracle seems fine, otherwise I'd start with a Worker after the Workboat so he can start on roads. Change Meditation to Polytheism, especially if you make a Worker before the Settler.

futurehermit said:
Sounds good in theory, but I've been getting to too late. I think it's partly cuz I forgot that fishing-wheel will also give pottery not just ag-wheel (i don't get fishing or pottery that early in my other games), and so i've been getting ag. But do think withough ag that your second city will get to size 4 in time?

I don't think it helps to have the second city at size 4 unless you're swimming in food.

futurehermit said:
also, do you think that starting with hunting, which doesn't factor in at all, hurts? i've found one benefit is that i usually land enough goody-huts that i don't run a deficit. do you think this affords us the opportunity to move more than 3 spaces from the capital? or do the additional worker turns still hurt too much?

I think the Worker turns is probably the key thing saved. But unless somebody who comes up proof can say otherwise, I'm positive that having a compact empire reduces early Barbarian aggression. I've just had too many runs now with no attacks whatsoever to feel otherwise. If I was going to rate the benefits of being compact I'd go Worker Speed -> Barbarians -> Maintenance. In the bulk of the games you can discount maintenance, but especially if you started with a Warrior it's possible to have a game with no starting money so you have to figure on it when you develop a general plan. Also, being compact means that only the capital needs to be in a decent spot since the second city will share the tiles early on.


futurehermit said:
also, on another note, do you think the 2nd GE should be used on the great library when the AI doesn't prioritize alphabet or lit? i'm thinking a better use of it would be to unlock machinery AND DON'T TRADE IT! this gives you xbows, and also 1/2 of maces. that means you only need to research through CoL (which you need anyways for courthouses) and CS (which you need anyways for irrigation) to get maces. thoughts?

This is probably situational. With Mao, it can be a good idea since the Chu-Ko-Nu is great for many reasons... not least for allowing you to get collateral damage without having to bring catapults. I'd value regular crossbows less highly. If your first opponents are going to predominately have Archers still for defense, the the xbow will not be superior to Swordsmen. Start getting those CRIII troops ready that you'll convert into gunpowder units later. If you're willing to wait on the Library, then I would also consider using the GE on the Hanging Gardens to get even more points into GEs in the Forge/Pyramids city, which will be a big help if you've spread the Scientists around your other cities so the Engineer city doesn't get overtaken with GPP. Forge + Pyramids + Gardens + Phil gives 14 GPP/turn so the 3rd GE comes 22 turns later and the 4th 29 turns after that. But it's totally situational on how your empire is going to shake out.
 
Okay, I've run through the numbers with every combination I can think of, and I've concluded that Alexander has no chance whatsoever to pull this off by 1000BC or earlier. He's just too short on techs. Building the Workboat causes too much production delay on a Worker or Settler, and researching another food tech to avoid having to produce a Workboat causes too much delay in the tech progression. Elizabeth solves this problem a little with Mining and her extra commerce boost once you get the Workboat out. Since Peter also has Mining it might be possible with him, although I have my doubts. But Alexander is out unless you get some kind of exceptional opening, such as popping techs you need in a hut. Not even starting on a plains hill with Fish was enough to overcome his handicaps and I'm not sure what else would- unless you had Gold/Silver/Gems that would make starting with Mining a clear benefit.
 
Eqqman said:
Okay, I've run through the numbers with every combination I can think of, and I've concluded that Alexander has no chance whatsoever to pull this off by 1000BC or earlier. He's just too short on techs. Building the Workboat causes too much production delay on a Worker or Settler, and researching another food tech to avoid having to produce a Workboat causes too much delay in the tech progression. Elizabeth solves this problem a little with Mining and her extra commerce boost once you get the Workboat out. Since Peter also has Mining it might be possible with him, although I have my doubts. But Alexander is out unless you get some kind of exceptional opening, such as popping techs you need in a hut. Not even starting on a plains hill with Fish was enough to overcome his handicaps and I'm not sure what else would- unless you had Gold/Silver/Gems that would make starting with Mining a clear benefit.

I'll give it a shot, he seems easier than Saladin (at least he has Mining.)

EDIT: Oh, he doesn't have mining, we'll see how this goes I guess.

EDIT: You can get techs in huts on Monarch?! I restarted because I thought I didn't set the difficulty level right > : (

EDIT: Did it no problem by 1200 BC with average-ish land and no work boat resources (wish I'd known about that Iron early enough to make a difference, though!)



I even forgot to slave away the last 2 or 3 turns of it, so it could have been earlier. I didn't pop any techs or anything weird like that.
 
Good job, but it looks like you didn't go the Metal Casting route (unless I'm mistaken). Futurehermit didn't mention this part of the challenge in his OP if memory serves me correctly. It's no great shakes for any civ to get the Pyramids out if that is all you're doing.
 
Eqqman said:
Good job, but it looks like you didn't go the Metal Casting route (unless I'm mistaken). Futurehermit didn't mention this part of the challenge in his OP if memory serves me correctly. It's no great shakes for any civ to get the Pyramids out if that is all you're doing.

Oh, no, you're right, I didn't. I'll try that later because I really am curious about it.
 
Okay, here's the Alexander plan. Unlike Saladin, who doesn't need too uncommon a start, you need a very specific map setup to pull this off. So, if you're willing to hit 'regenerate map' over and over because you just don't want to play without your favorite Macedonian, then here's what you need:

Capital needs:
  • Seafood and a Gold/Silver/Gems tile for commerce. I worked with Silver which gives the lowest commerce, so anything else will be even better. This tile should not have forests on it. This may not be an issue as I don't think I've ever seen such a thing, but if Calendar resources can start with forests, then maybe it's possible.
  • 4 forests to be chopped.
  • Plains hill to be settled on no later than turn 2.
  • Hill available for second Mine.

2nd city needs:
  • Plains hill as a base.
  • 4 forests to be chopped. In my run-through, I was lucky enough to have 4 forests in the cultural borders. I got sloppy and forgot to verify that the 4th forest might have the option of being outside the borders like it does with Saladin.
  • Be founded 3 tiles away from the capital. Saving Worker turns in movement is just too essential.
  • Immediate access to a 3F unimproved tile.
  • The ability to share a Mine with the capital.

One note on forests that also applies to Saladin: The forests for the second city do not necessarily need to be adjacent to the city. However, they do need to be closer to the second city than the capital in order to actually be able to collect the wood over the capital. Depending on where you have to put the second city, the second cultural expansion of the capital might place trees inside the culture borders of the second city that are actually 2 tiles away from it. This is something you'll have to check out when you are initially looking over the map.

What to do requires (if I can say so without seeming arrogant) fairly masterful play. You cannot afford to do anything that wastes a single Worker turn if you can help it. You'll also have to do things with the capital that I normally wouldn't think of doing in a game. I pretty much had to plan every single detail through to the finishing of the Oracle before I even founded Athens.

Tech progression:
Mining -> Bronzeworking (do not switch to slavery immediately) -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Whatever you like, as long as Masonry is done before the Engineer pops out.

Build queues-
Athens: Worker -> Settler -> Workboat -> Warriors until Oracle
Sparta: Worker -> Warriors until Forge

The first Worker starts on the commerce Mine. When the Mine is done, you will immediately work this tile. Pay attention and do not wait for the game to ask you what the Worker should do next before getting on the Mine. Before you hit the 'end turn' button watch for the appearance of the Mine to switch to it. You are trying to get Bronzeworking done fast enough to make up Settler/Workboat production with trees. After this Mine, if you can start a second Mine, then do so. Otherwise you'll have some lost Worker turns that I don't know how to eliminate. Whatever you do, be sure that the Worker is standing idle over a tree ready to go when Bronzeworking finishes. As I mentioned, do not switch to slavery right away. You cannot afford the delays imposed by Anarchy just yet.

When Bronzeworking is done, chop a tree to finish the Settler and immediately chop a second tree to finish the Workboat. When the seafood is ready, work the seafood until growth to size 2. Then work both seafood and commerce Mine. You will not be able to afford having either city try to grow to size 3. After Mining the Workers are pre-chopping and building roads to all these same forests.

Now here's where you have to be clever: once Athens is building the Oracle, alternate between working Mine + Seafood and both Mines. You work the Seafood 1 turn to build a tiny surplus, then work the Mines until you are about to starve. You would have to grow to size 4 in order to get 2 pop from a whip, and you don't have time to get to size 4. Since you cannot reach size 4, there is no advantage to getting to size 3. Each pop you whip for Oracle only provides 15 hammers anyway since it's a Wonder. You will make much more than these 15 hammers by swapping tiles.

Once you've researched Pottery, you can revolt to slavery. Use 2 trees and 1 whipped pop to finish Oracle. Then use 1 whipped pop and 4 trees over two turns to finish the Forge. Sparta needs to contribute >= 6 hammers per turn for two turns to finish the Oracle (this value varies on whether the 4th forest is giving you 20 hammers or less than that). You get this from sharing a Mine. Depending on if you have plains or grasslands forests you can also get this from working your trees if you're careful about what trees you chop first. Either way you can run Sparta at a food deficit if you have to. Sparta then spends the next 17 turns as a size 1 city doing nothing but making the Engineer. There's no reason really why you couldn't leave it as a size 1 city for the rest of the game just to crank out your first 3-4 GEs, leaving the rest of those tiles available to the capital.

Do all these things and you will have the fame and ovation of the people forever. But I stick with my original claims that this is just too hard to make the plan viable for Alexander. The map requirements are just too stringent and the micromanagement involved is so high I doubt people will even be able to replicate my feat every time. If you have Gold, it will be a huge help. I don't think anything else makes a difference. Discount the farms and cottages in the picture, that all came after the Oracle was done and I had nothing better to do while I waited for the Engineer to pop out. Elizabeth is far more practical since she has Mining and Financial, so you could skip the commerce tile requirement for her, and you might have time to research Agriculture so you could skip the seafood requirement (maybe not, since Financial is not going to help without a water tile to work).

EDIT: Very important tip for those players new to Civ IV micromanagement. If every unit you own currently has an order, then the game will whip through them all and immediately ask you to hit the 'end turn' button. This means that if you intended to have a Worker pre-chop a forest, when he's on the last turn he will actually finish cutting the tree before you get the chance to stop him. Frequently, I tell my starting unit to fortify since it has nothing to do after revealing the second city site. This means that unit has an order, and I won't get an opportunity to interact with my units before Workers use up their actions for that turn. So, when you're doing a pre-chop, make sure your military unit is not fortified and manually skip his turn after you've interrupted any Workers that are about to cut a tree you're not ready for.
 

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In all my games under all leaders, I've also been trying to figure out how to pop out the Forge in 1 turn. Doing it with all trees = 6 Workers chopping at once, no way you'll get that many Workers produced. The least amount of trees you need is 3 if you can get the forge city to size 4. I've found growth to size 4 in the second city very impractical, and I'm not sure you could manage it if you also had to produce 3 Workers in both cities combined. You might be able to manage it via Worker stealing, but I wouldn't recommend pissing off a neighbor in a situation where you are planning on only having 1-2 warriors for the first 50 turns. Some folks look like they are trying to make the Oracle in the second city and building the Forge in the capital, but I'm not sure this is workable unless you have Mao and a food bonus you can improve with Agriculture. I'm curious as to what anybody else thinks about this.
 
Do all these things and you will have the fame and ovation of the people forever. But I stick with my original claims that this is just too hard to make the plan viable for Alexander. The map requirements are just too stringent and the micromanagement involved is so high I doubt people will even be able to replicate my feat every time.

That's my sense as well. I don't think it's possible with Alex. With him, I think you have to have stone, or else try my Mao build, where you start worker-settler, chop the settler, settle the settler, build a worker in 2nd city, have both workers chop the pyramids. you also need good production in your capital, and obviously a respectable number of forests. Or else you need stone. Otherwise you're screwed.

Therefore, I think Alex, despite how juicy his traits look for this strat, is not a good leader for our efforts to ensure the pyramids by 1000BC.

I really like Mao (going to try the Oracle build with him more). Obviously philosophical is awesome for the strat (hence this challenge), and if I can't get aggressive, organized is also good when going for domination for the cheap courthouses. Also, since no cottages/financial, the trickle of money saved on civics throughout the game can be handy. For a science victory the cheap universities for easier oxford is also good.
 
Eggy, I think you'll be pleased to see that I matched your time with much less, er, well-tailored land, after three or four tries (I kept getting 900 BC, and then once or twice I did stuff like build Oracle with Pottery 1 turn from completion :()

There are a couple differences in the tech path you jumped to and the one I used; mostly that I go agriculture before mining/BW. I also slave my settler and second worker very quickly, using farmed tiles to pop back up to population 2 and 3. As a result, my cities grow better and my capital makes it to 5 and my little city made it to 4.

That meant that I could work some of the 2c lake tiles with my capital while I was building the Oracle so I could get Pottery quickly enough, and it also meant that I could slave another pop off my forge and, along with exploiting 40p worth of overflow on the turn before through building a monastery, I built/doublechopped/slaved my Forge on the first turn after Oracle finished, so that's obviously several turns worth of improvement.

I'm sure there's room for improvement in this strategy, my gut feeling says that 1200 BC is possible with fairly average land like mine.

(By the way, I ****ed it up even on the last go; I forgot about Masonry, so I'd been spending the turns after my forge was up on...IW and Machinery. Just my style. You can see the engineer there, so count it as a proof of concept - I have to go out so I don't have time to futz up another one for you :p)



EDIT: On a side note, I enjoy setting these sort of goals for myself (I always try to establish landmarks in MP games of dates when I ought to be at different places on the tech tree, dates when I ought to have at least X cities down, dates when wonders get built) and I think it's a lot of fun trying to hit a little bit of a challenging goal like this. I think if any average player sat down and spent a few hours working this out for themselves until they could hit 1000 BC on average land, they might really advance their understanding of worker micro and slaving - which is practically half the game, honestly.
 
futurehermit said:
Elledge, could you give me a walkthrough of how you achieved it? I'm really struggling...

Well, if I recall, I started out researching Agriculture as I built my first worker. After Agriculture I researched Mining and BW.

After my worker came out I sent him to farm that nearby corn (otherwise I'd be farming a flood plains). If you're on a plains hill, your city growth and warrior production should both take 8 turns working a 3-food tile. However, your city will grow faster once you farm the corn/fp, so you'll end up growing before the warrior is done. Once my worker is done I sent him to farm another high-food square (flood plains for me.)

Once I was size 2 I didn't wait for the warrior to finish, I started on a settler immediately. Sometime in the meantime I finished BW and switched to slavery, and when my worker was done farming I went to a forest and chopped. By the time the chop was done my settler was far enough done that I slaved the rest of it.

I put the overflow into a worker and started another chop as I built warrior waiting to grow to size 2 again. I put that chop into a worker and I grew to size 2; I switched to my half-done worker and slaved it immediately. (In the meantime I'm researching Mysticism, Meditation, and then Priesthood.)

I sent one of my workers then to help my second city, which started production on a worker, and irrigated the wheat over there and finished chopping its worker. The other worker stayed at home and prepared mines for oracle in my capital as my capital warriored up to size 4 or 5. I used my two workers up top to improve my other city in the meantime. I had lots of time there to build a mine or two and start prechopping for my forge. Once Meditation hit, I took that opportunity to get a Buddhist Monastery going in my second city (where Buddhism landed); it was size 4 by then if I recall and I was able to micro it so that it had exactly 2 hammers left on the build by the time I got Oracle.

Once Priesthood arrived, I sent my workers back down to my capital, and I realized quickly that I was going to finish Oracle way before I finished Wheel and Pottery, so I worked 3 or 4 lake squares in my capital for extra commerce (and 1 lake square I think in my other city.) I microed between tiles so that I was able to finish Oracle the turn I finished pottery and I had time to send 2 workers back up to my other city and position them to chop.

I slaved the last little bit of Oracle, and I chopped a forest so that my second city was building buddhist monastery at 78/58 +8/turn, as I recall. Next turn I finished Oracle and Pottery, took Metal Casting, put the monastery overflow into my Forge, moved onto 2 more prechopped forests. Next turn I chopped and slaved two population to finish Forge. Then I set the engineer specialist and went to sleep.

That might not all be quite right (I kinda winged it), but it's pretty close.
 
Elledge said:
Eggy, I think you'll be pleased to see that I matched your time with much less, er, well-tailored land, after three or four tries (I kept getting 900 BC, and then once or twice I did stuff like build Oracle with Pottery 1 turn from completion :(

I am pleased, but the dark clouds of suspicion are blotting out the sunlight of happiness. Two questions: #1, did you run this through with AI players in the game, and #2, is this done at Monarch or above?

If you start with Agriculture and the best alternate source of commerce is only a 2C water tile, then you cannot be finished with Bronzeworking until turn 35. The latest you can finish the Oracle is turn 55. This leaves you 20 turns to research three techs and then finish the Oracle in 1 turn. But wait! You've finished the Oracle and haven't had time for the Wheel or Pottery yet. It's impossible for this game to have taken place on Monarch, the numbers don't add up. This is what led me to the complicated Alexander game- because he's short Agriculture and Mining, he has just too many techs to research. You simply do not have time to research Agriculture.

Looking at the map setup I think you're right that you had less stringent requirements on the map, but I think you undervalued how much your map actually helped you. You still have at least 1 plains hill for city founding and needed 3 tiles that could produce 4F or better. With all the chopping you did, the amount of forests you used is on the same order of magnitude in my game.

On an unrelated note, I've had some thoughts for applications of this strategy for people that aren't disgusted by cottages. Use Mao, and research Ironworking after the Metal casting prereqs. Screw the Pyramids and use the Engineer on Machinery, fighting your early wars with Chu-Ko-Nus. Or, use Saladin. After the Metal Casting prereqs, get to Code of Laws. Screw the Pyramids and use the GE on Machinery. Disable the Forge long enough so that the 2nd person you get is the GP from Oracle. Do not research Masonry so you can use the Prophet on Civil Service. Macemen will then be available by 250 BC or earlier depending on your science rate. The problem with either idea is that these Middle Ages units may be too expensive for your Ancient/Classical era cities to mass produce, so you may have to combine this with the 'disposable city' idea from the other thread in order to get more use from whips.
 
Eqqman said:
I am pleased, but the dark clouds of suspicion are blotting out the sunlight of happiness. Two questions: #1, did you run this through with AI players in the game, and #2, is this done at Monarch or above?

If you start with Agriculture and the best alternate source of commerce is only a 2C water tile, then you cannot be finished with Bronzeworking until turn 35. The latest you can finish the Oracle is turn 55. This leaves you 20 turns to research three techs and then finish the Oracle in 1 turn. But wait! You've finished the Oracle and haven't had time for the Wheel or Pottery yet. It's impossible for this game to have taken place on Monarch, the numbers don't add up. This is what led me to the complicated Alexander game- because he's short Agriculture and Mining, he has just too many techs to research. You simply do not have time to research Agriculture.

Looking at the map setup I think you're right that you had less stringent requirements on the map, but I think you undervalued how much your map actually helped you. You still have at least 1 plains hill for city founding and needed 3 tiles that could produce 4F or better. With all the chopping you did, the amount of forests you used is on the same order of magnitude in my game.

I did it on Monarch with no AI (didn't want to bugger with defense); and the map certainly helped, especially the plains hill. Just a plains hill in the capital saves 3 turns right off the bat on the starting worker, plus change. I don't think a plains hill in the second city really matters, though.

I don't know what to tell you, other than I was working several of those water tiles during most of the time between Meditation and Pottery, and I had my second city up and running early too making maybe 3-4 commerce (maybe 1 or 2 more when I worked the water tile? most of my stuff was on rivers, etc.) And hut pops meant that I had plenty of gold to run at 100% the whole time, obviously, so that was straight gain.

I'd say I chopped a good ten or twelve forests between my two cities, that seems realistic. Mostly I wanted to see if I could do it without the workboat and without the commerce tile, because those seem like the big requirements that wouldn't be fulfilled often in a real game.

EDIT: I'm not sure if it helps, but I have a habit of taking saves at the end of my games, and I have this one: http://rapidshare.de/files/26648397/pyramids3.Civ4SavedGame.html

Not sure what you can divine from that really though so it's probably not much use. But note that I get a full 20 beakers from my capital working those water tiles, and I was working nothing but them for at least several turns while I chopped out Oracle. (Note I got sailing from a hut - scout's honor I didn't nail any other useful techs. That was like my second tech hut pop ever through all my tries on this - I'm used to playing MP on Noble and tech pops seem much rarer, is it a function of Monarch? For awhile I thought techs never popped at all on Monarch.)

On my way down to the bookstore just now I was also thinking about the possibility of doing it without researching Agriculture at all, since then you could get Oracle that much quicker, but my gut tells me it's not possible without work boat resources.

DOUBLE EDIT: Now I'm not the biggest expert in the world on this, and I know there is an actual modifier to the beakers you receive into a tech at different difficulty levels and due to other factors like other civs who have learned the tech.

But I think perhaps why you are flummoxed might be due to different map sizes. I'd been playing all along on Pangaea Small (pretty much just picked at random), and suddenly I just tried a Pangaea Duel game (so that I wouldn't have as many huts to worry about accidentally teching with) and the techs were *quite a bit* cheaper. Like, from the screenshot, Machinery cost 966 beakers on Pangaea Small? On Pangaea Duel it costs 805. All Monarch difficulty.

This in particular jumps out at me now: "If you start with Agriculture and the best alternate source of commerce is only a 2C water tile, then you cannot be finished with Bronzeworking until turn 35." For me, Agriculture usually has been taking 8 turns working a 1c flood plain, Mining 6 turns, and Bronze Working 12. Quite a disparity, unless I'm reading you wrong.

Draw your own conclusions.

And if you're playing with AI, all bets are off, since I know for sure that you get a discount when you're researching a tech the AI already knows. So you might get different tech times every game.
 
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