Open competition: Earliest pyramids using philosophical civ and no stone

[Pantastic]

Obviously, the optimal solution is to play as Alexander and start next to an industrius civ with stone.

 

[DaveMcW]

I would like to see a comparison game of Pyramids+Great Library vs Cottage Spam. I suspect cottages would win easily, even with stone.

 

[saleg37]

I would like to see a comparison game of Pyramids+Great Library vs Cottage Spam. I suspect cottages would win easily, even with stone.

What would the constraints be on that? Can GL+Pyramids build no cottages? Would cottage guy have to put cottages on every flatland and every grasshill? What would the game speed be? I'd be interested to see that test done, though I would think it would have to be on the same map for comparison purposes. Probably on an isolated island-continent to avoid AI interference. Plenty of room to roam but no nosey AI getting into things. Besides that though there's just a LOT of variables. # of cities, time of completion etc. Though if you want to it, post it. I'd love to see which one would work better if you were able to isolate the variables.

 

[malekithe]

What would the constraints be on that? Can GL+Pyramids build no cottages? Would cottage guy have to put cottages on every flatland and every grasshill? What would the game speed be? I'd be interested to see that test done, though I would think it would have to be on the same map for comparison purposes. Probably on an isolated island-continent to avoid AI interference. Plenty of room to roam but no nosey AI getting into things. Besides that though there's just a LOT of variables. # of cities, time of completion etc. Though if you want to it, post it. I'd love to see which one would work better if you were able to isolate the variables.

You definitely wouldn't want to run the test isolated from the AI. War, and the quick assimilation of cities, is one of the primary strengths of a specialist-based economy.

 

[futurehermit]

I would like to see a comparison game of Pyramids+Great Library vs Cottage Spam. I suspect cottages would win easily, even with stone.

Try it yourself and you will see that you suspect wrong. Check out the detailed analysis thread. The numbers are all there. A cottage econ doesn't become superior until Renaissance era, and the specialist econ player can switch to emancipation come democracy and use hagia sophia to help switch farms to cottages. By the late game, they'll both be in the same boat since there is a cap on what cottages can grow to, and for all those critical centuries during ancient-medieval the specialist econ has had faaar superior econ.

 

[NaZdReG]

future,

at it again I see still while the specialist econ does have its advantages, I think you're sacrificing either city growth, hammer production, or the flexibility to buy techs or upgrade units.. quite a sacrifice.

even still the idea of popping the oracle to get metal casting for free.. rushing a forge then using the great engineer to get the pyramids is definately worth a shot anyway.. if for no other reason than to deny the computer. but if you miss the pyramids just bust towards machinery with your engineer and go rush whoever has the pyramids with axemen and such

NaZ

 

[drkodos]

I have found that capturing the pyramids is both more satisfying and more efficient than actually building them.

The maxim:

Intelligence creates.

Genius steals.

 

[futurehermit]

Ok, I've GOT IT!

I was able to a bunch of times tonight, using Mao, get the pyramids by 1000 BC (Monarch, Normal speed, no stone).

Here is my build:

Tech: Bronze-Masonry (after that, just go by the map)

Capital: Worker-Settler-Pyramids

2nd city: Worker-Warrior-Warrior-Warrior-Warrior-Warrior

Ok, so here's how it goes: worker uses 3 chops to get settler out asap, then develops the land in the capital for the pyramids, then starts to chop the pyramids. once the worker in the 2nd city is done, it comes to help finish chopping the pyramids. once the pyramids are done, both cities should be around size four. poprush a settler in one and a worker in the other. this gives you three cities and three workers to develop them.

the beauty is that i then use the GE that spawns from the pyramids to rushbuild the parthenon. this is huge since it adds additional gp points throughout the course of the game!!!

i played one game tonight where i got the pyramids, parthenon, and great library and then used representation-scientist-specialists to boom my econ. unfortunately i was on an island by myself with coast, not ocean, separating me from cyrus and peter. i was able to trade with them, but didn't bother going to war since i had a large island to myself.

i got liberalism AND circumnavigation of the globe around 1000-1200 AD and had the outright tech lead by this point. i had even outteched the other continent, whom i met all of the inhabitants.

i was then cranking out science infra like it was going out of style and preparing for the transition to cottages once i hit democracy.

from there i would've cruised to an easy science victory since the other continent was at war and i bribed peter to go to war with cyrus.

i'm not going to finish the game since i am pretty confident it was in the bag.

i'm going to keep replicating this build and streamlining it.

i just can't believe it: pyramids (representation) + parthenon + great library + philosophical + (slightly later) pacifism + caste system + (slightly later) mercantilism!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is...HUGE

 

[drkodos]

Nice work.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Its huge, BUT play huge maps with monarch lvl, marathon speed, AND hold on to what you have ...in a recent game Cuzco not only built me the Henge, but also founded Buddhism..then those cruel barbs stole the city (for a few turns till it was mine )......build all the wonders you want, and I guarantee with my 10 cities (and no techs beyond axes) I WILL tear them down for you

 

[Paeanblack]

Here is the goal: To build the pyramids by 1000 BC using any philosophical civ and not using stone to help build the pyramids. The difficulty level has to be at least Monarch.

Second Goal: defend your Pyramids from a neighbor that invested an equivalent amount of production into building troops.


The Pyramids really ought to come with a giant blinking neon sign screaming "Kill me now!" and the AIs should probably be hardcoded to dogpile the owner, given that it's a far superior strategy than actually trying to build the damn thing.

 

[Eqqman]

Here's a Pyramids in 900 BC via Metal Casting. The date says 875, however I was stupid enough to immediately switch to Confucianism after I founded it while waiting for the Engineer, so lost a round for Anarchy I shouldn't have had. I just played this game off the cuff and didn't stress too hard trying to plan everything out precisely so I probably could have shaved off those last 4 turns.

I picked Elizabeth to get the extra Commerce, but since I wasn't working more than 1 sea tile that often Alexander would probably do as well. The key thing is to have a Fishing Philosopher and a starting location with a seafood resource.

The screenshot illustrates some points that seem to me to be 'have to do' to pull off the Metal Casting version of Pyramids (relying on fish or otherwise). The key thing is to found the second city in a location three tiles away from the capital. This allows the two cities to share the developed food resource and saves you the -1 distance-from-capital maintenance. It may not seem like much but if you didn't pop any cash from a goody hut having to drop the science slider down from 100% for even one turn can cause enough of a tech delay... and this early on, you won't be making enough commerce to prevent a science slider dip multiple times. The close second city also allows you to share in the tiles covered by your culture that the capital can't use anyway from being too small, so you don't have to waste time with the Obelisk to pop borders on city #2. And lastly being that close saves you Worker turns when moving between cities. Sadly I was just running on a small map with a few civs and victory conditions turned off so I didn't get to see how much easier a real game would be to finish with this jump... but give me Iron close by and my Crossbows would have been rampaging soon thereafter!

Edit: Ironically, the second city here was founded on top of a Stone resource, but since I popped the Pyramids in 1 turn with the Engineer it didn't come into play.

 

[futurehermit]

I'm not talking about multiplayer people. Obviously in multiplayer I am going to be building troops. The AI sucks at war. In my games I have easily been defending my empire, both against barbs, and against the AI. No problem...

 

[carl corey]

futurehermit, nice that you could pull it off. I've used the Oracle -> free Metal Casting -> Forge -> Engineer -> instant Pyramids lower difficulty levels, not so since playing on Prince. (I've yet to move to Monarch) As you saw, it's hard to balance getting the engineer before a prophet. One time I was Philosophical and forgot about it :grin: and whoa, look, the prophet is early! What the...?

Anyway, I've found the first part (Oracle -> free Metal Casting -> Forge / forges in both/all cities) to be quite usefull for several reasons. One, it's a very expensive tech. Two, getting early forges means a production boost - of course it helps if your cities have copper/iron/horses/etc., not so much if you're coastal. :grin: Three, the AIs NEVER go for early Metal Casting - at least up to Prince level, and you can trade it for a lot of stuff even later on. Better to trade that instead of Alphabet and keep the monopoly on tech trading, right? Four, if you DO have a coastal city with decent production and lots of water tiles, you might want to build the Colossus, and you have a very good chance of doing it.

I rest my case.

 

[futurehermit]

I rest my case.

the only problem is that on monarch+ the pyramids are built by around 1000BC (hence the target date for this strat). i've yet to succeed in using the metal casting strat to get the pyramids by 1000. every turn you go into the 900s is a risk. and if you're hanging your hat on the pyramids, you don't want to miss it.

i'm so pumped about the mao build that i've come up with, that i can't wait to sit down and play a non-test game with him.

i mean, really: philosophical + parthenon + pyramids/representation + great library (and then later...) + caste system + pacifism + mercantilism...HUGE!!!

you'll get TONS of great scientists, which you settle in your academy + national epic city giving you each 9 beakers/turn. this is in addition to the 6 beakers per turn provided by each scientist specialist you run.

the only thing that kinda sucks is that i find i pop at least one great artist from the parthenon

anyone have any ideas about the best use for this great artist? I've just been unlocking drama for the culture slider and for another tech to trade. Is it possible to unlock music using a great artist? this might be the best strategy...try and unlock music for a FREE great artist, which you can then use for...what?

i'd love to here some ideas on what could be done with the first, and possibly second, great artist

 

[Feyd Rautha]

the only thing that kinda sucks is that i find i pop at least one great artist from the parthenon

anyone have any ideas about the best use for this great artist? I've just been unlocking drama for the culture slider and for another tech to trade. Is it possible to unlock music using a great artist? this might be the best strategy...try and unlock music for a FREE great artist, which you can then use for...what?

i'd love to here some ideas on what could be done with the first, and possibly second, great artist

Well... if you don't have to use the Great Artist from Music for a culture bomb then I recommend researching Drama normally and then using the Great Artist. I believe you get Nationhood which is a much more expensive technology. Researching Drama is just the price you have to pay. Although... Drama is a GREAT way to make some cash since you can trade it to the AI normally for gold since they don't prioritize the tech. Also, it's no skin off of your back since Drama is not the most earth shattering of techs for the AI to have

 

[carl corey]

Psst, I said I wasn't getting the Pyr's anymore on Prince. I don't even go for them most of the time. Only one time I had SH, Oracle and Pyr's, due to an insane starting location: 4 (FOUR!) clams, 1 fish, stone (or was it marble? I'll have to check) and some forrests too IIRC. And I was playing Cathy (actually, still playing, haven't finished it), so the coastal tiles had 3 gold instead of 2. It's the best start I've ever had. Wip, wip, wip like crazy, growing back was easy as pie. I got bored when I got the Global Theater in Moscow and nothing stood in the way of my wip anymore. :sigh:

As for GA... Hmm... I always have a use for him. Especially when I'm consolidating the empire after a war. Since I have new borders, I might have problems in some of the cities, so a GA is an excellent bonus in this case.

Conclusion: No, my* MC slingshot doesn't always give you Pyr's, but if you don't get them you still can make use of it. (that was "my case") I'm still amazed at what you pulled off there. I might try it too sometime.

*Edit: Ahem, ok, technically it's not MY slingshot.

 

[futurehermit]

Well... if you don't have to use the Great Artist from Music for a culture bomb then I recommend researching Drama normally and then using the Great Artist. I believe you get Nationhood which is a much more expensive technology. Researching Drama is just the price you have to pay. Although... Drama is a GREAT way to make some cash since you can trade it to the AI normally for gold since they don't prioritize the tech. Also, it's no skin off of your back since Drama is not the most earth shattering of techs for the AI to have

Nationhood! Are you saying that if you have researched Drama and Music, the next tech in the GA pathway is nationhood? If so, that would be HUGE (since nationhood is on the path to democracy).

So, if I researched Drama, used my GA from parthenon on Music, then I could use the free GA from Music to unlock nationhood?

Are there any other techs in the GA line that I would have to research in order to get them to lightbulb these two techs?

Ahhh...the possibilities!!!

 

[carl corey]

Wow, Nationhood? That's insane! I remember delaying Liberalism to get Nationhood before poping Constitution. This should speed things up! Taj Mahal! :drools:

 

[DaveMcW]

Are there any other techs in the GA line that I would have to research in order to get them to lightbulb these two techs?

Yes. You need to research all the way through Divine Right, or avoid Masonry to block that path off.