Opinion: new invisible barbarian thiefs spawning feature is unfriendly for new players

[Noriad2]

While waiting for the Nightmare option to be adapted to the new deity level, I decided to start a new deity/nightmare game anyway just to get a look at the new features after several months of not playing.

After conquering my third city in mid-prehistoric, I found that keeping crime down was MUCH more difficult. After crime level shot up to 500+ I placed enough buildings and enforcers to get it to drop a decent rate. However, this would last only a few turns then the drop would slow down or crime would even go up again. So I placed more enforcers, and crime would drop again, only to stop dropping a few turns later. Looking in World Builder I confirmed what I suspected: the new autobuildings were spawning a large number of invisible Barbarian thiefs, thiefs that could not be detected by other thiefs (I tried). But I only suspected it because I read about it on this forum. Meanwhile, with REV option on, the city started to get revolt after revolt. Luckily I did not lose the city due to the revolts.

In the end I had a whopping 18 enforcers in the city (with a population of only 1) before crime dropped enough to despawn the new autobuildings that were creating the barbarian thiefs. Since it was only late prehistoric, this nearly bankrupted me, forcing me to set 2 out of 3 cities on Build Wealth. Slowly setting more and more of the enforcers to investigate, after many turns they finally started finding the thiefs one by one, and eventually I managed to clear the city of crime.

While I managed to solve this crisis, for a newbie this would be flabbergasting: why does the crime start to rise again after starting to drop with several measures in place? How is a newbie supposed to know about hidden criminals that even dogs and other criminal units can't detect? 20 years ago, strategy games used to come with 200+ page manuals. But nowadays, nobody reads manuals anymore, and players are accustomed to be able to figure out the game from within the game itself. Having invisible game rules is the best way to annoy new players.

Furthermore, mousing the next AI city I wanted to conquer, I noticed that its central city tile alone had a crime level of over 950, making me suspect that there are a large number of barbarian criminals present. As barbarian criminals keep spawning, and higher crime levels apparently make it harder and harder to investigate them, I wonder if it is possible that there can be so many spawned criminals in a city that it is practically impossible to find them, let alone get rid of them. Other than disbanding the city with CTRL-A, detecting the criminals with dogs or other criminals, then send in a large army to wipe them out.

So I propose the following changes:

1) in the city, there should be a counter that tells the player how many "criminal gangs" are currently hiding in the city. A logical place would be just below the list of properties. Mousing over this value, there should be the advice to set law enforcers on "inspect" to find these gangs. As far as I know, criminals outside of the city can still be detected with dogs or other criminals.

2) limit the number of criminals that can exist in the same city or on the same plot. After all, you can have only so many criminals in a small area before they start to kill each other to get rid of the competition.

 

[MacCoise]

Am I right that dogs can see them?

I a recent game there did seem to be a snowball effect- I could see them but do nothing about it. The Enforcers weren't catching them even when on inspections for many turns

 

[Noriad2]

There is definitely a snowball effect, and in my current game (early ancient) one AI (Ethiopia) is losing big against crime.
Ethiopia has 2 cities, due to espionage points I can see inside their cities.

One city with 14 enforcers (down from 15 last turn) with crime level 657 (+5), the other city with 1 enforcer (down from 2 last turn) crime 1015 (+8).

Its commerce is set to 100% money (0% science) but still it has -12 net loss per turn. Both cities have been building enforcers non-stop for many turns but apparently do not have the financial strength to support them so the enforcers continually get disbanded while crime stays high and increases even more.

 

[Thunderbrd]

First off... I understand some confusion and frustration will ensue, particularly for newer players. I recognize a severe need to explain things in the pedia as well. Hoping to find enough time this weekend before releasing to address some of that need.

As barbarian criminals keep spawning, and higher crime levels apparently make it harder and harder to investigate them, I wonder if it is possible that there can be so many spawned criminals in a city that it is practically impossible to find them, let alone get rid of them. Other than disbanding the city with CTRL-A, detecting the criminals with dogs or other criminals, then send in a large army to wipe them out.

2) limit the number of criminals that can exist in the same city or on the same plot. After all, you can have only so many criminals in a small area before they start to kill each other to get rid of the competition.

There actually IS a limit, in effect. The chance to spawn is now reduced by 10% for each criminal that already exists in the city, making an effective zero chance to spawn if you have 10 or more criminals in the city (of any ownership.)

This was not the case with the original release of this system so if you haven't updated assets in a bit you wouldn't have this effect in place yet and could be dealing with the initial swarms we were getting at first.

The chance of a criminal emerging is the crime level out of 10000, checked once for each spawn source (building that enables a spawn) each round. Thus another way to ensure NO criminals spawning is to ensure no crime ever exists (good luck with that... I know this and I still can't control it THAT well.)

1) in the city, there should be a counter that tells the player how many "criminal gangs" are currently hiding in the city. A logical place would be just below the list of properties. Mousing over this value, there should be the advice to set law enforcers on "inspect" to find these gangs. As far as I know, criminals outside of the city can still be detected with dogs or other criminals.

I could give the count in the city defense hover, where there is already listed the current fully tallied chance to investigate and the amount of insidiousness that counters that that your city is providing criminals there with. Since you do get notification with each criminal that spawns now (again a recent development) it makes sense that it could be fair for the game to keep a count for you. It does it for the AI

Am I right that dogs can see them?

Yes and no. This is where if you are on Hide and Seek it's a bit deeper than if you were not. Criminals on Hide and Seek can and often do have varying levels of different invisibility types. In the first portion of the game, this is primarily Disguise and Camouflage. Dogs can see through Camo very strong (hunters and scouts aren't too bad at it either for earlier protection). Law Enforcement units can do a good job of seeing through Disguise, can take promos to enhance their ability to do so, and can be set to build up their level of discernment on disguise. To really see a unit, one must be able to see through all forms of (and override the intensity of) all forms of invisibility the unit possesses but this is a team effort between multiple units. Thus a good Dog and a good LE unit can usually see through an approaching criminal but once in the city, it's much harder as disguise becomes much enhanced for those units that have some already if they are in a city.

Each time a unit is investigated, it loses a level of all forms of invisibility so it often becomes visible by investigating them.

However, to be visible is not an immediate qualification to arrest a criminal. They must ALSO be investigated and thus have an investigation promotion attached to them. And just because they have been investigated also doesn't mean they can be immediately arrested... you must also be able to see them. Thus sometimes you may need to investigate further to figure out where your perps are hiding out.

Non Hide and Seek games simplify all this tremendously as Investigation negates all forms of invisibility and there are not levels of invisibility to be concerned with. It's pretty much all or nothing. And usually if you have a dog and a LE unit you can see any criminal within visible range of both units.

Later in the game criminals get more clever and diverse with other means of being invisible... But law enforcement efforts do try to keep up with them.

I a recent game there did seem to be a snowball effect- I could see them but do nothing about it. The Enforcers weren't catching them even when on inspections for many turns

High crime leads to more places for the criminals to hide out and more ways for them to get around being investigated. Get the crime levels down with most LE units and get one unit to focus on investigating (since only the best investigator is the basis of the check while all other investigation-capable units are only adding 10% of their investigation amounts to the total check.) If you can get the crime levels knocked out, then the criminals are relying on their own insidiousness skills to avoid investigation and it's only a matter of time before their luck runs out.

As an attack form, this is all very useful to understand when sending criminals to harass others too. They are most useful when you first get them into position and cause a sudden upswing in crime which can get other criminals to spawn, then you can get them out of there when the AI has gotten crime under control with a lot of expensive LE units, then move on to the next city to harass, leaving them to over-control crime for a bit until the send the LE units elsewhere or start getting rid of them to help with budget problems.

Its commerce is set to 100% money (0% science) but still it has -12 net loss per turn. Both cities have been building enforcers non-stop for many turns but apparently do not have the financial strength to support them so the enforcers continually get disbanded while crime stays high and increases even more.

Gold is certainly a much more challenging aspect of the mod now, particularly WITH this crime factor in place and Joseph's latest economic system adjustments (brilliant stuff!)

 

[MacCoise]

Really dont know about this. Just had to abandon a game in prehistoric era because I must have had criminals. Gold dropped to -17 (crime at over 200) per turn but I couldnt even see them.

I just couldnt do anything- had my Guardian try to inspect but no result- units started dissolving because of strike. Had only met 1 other civ which I was ahead of technologically. Dont mind difficlult gameplay but this seemed extreme.,

 

[Thunderbrd]

Really dont know about this. Just had to abandon a game in prehistoric era because I must have had criminals. Gold dropped to -17 (crime at over 200) per turn but I couldnt even see them.

I just couldnt do anything- had my Guardian try to inspect but no result- units started dissolving because of strike. Had only met 1 other civ which I was ahead of technologically. Dont mind difficlult gameplay but this seemed extreme.,

That early on, the only potential criminals to impact you would be exiles, which would be spottable coming in by a LE unit (they do not start with any camo invisibility at first but can earn it through promos) and when they spawn they spawn outside the borders and cannot enter the borders of the nation that spawned them. Thus those YOU spawn are only going to go out and try to cause trouble for neighbors.

Thus it IS important to get an early LE unit in place to spot disguise (and a unit to take these pests out when they approach your city which can usually be the LE unit as well.)

Some more advanced criminals can spawn from goodies too so watch out for them. Much more dangerous.

 

[jshetley]

Something must have changed not very long ago then regarding crime because I have NO trouble at all with it using SVN 9352. I do get crime right at the very start in a new city, but have not seen a single crime building built because I get it down so fast. In the game I'm playing now I have saw a couple of crime buildings but only because I went to war and captured an AI city. That city is now well on its way to being crime free though, with no LE units needed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Something must have changed not very long ago then regarding crime because I have NO trouble at all with it using SVN 9352. I do get crime right at the very start in a new city, but have not seen a single crime building built because I get it down so fast. In the game I'm playing now I have saw a couple of crime buildings but only because I went to war and captured an AI city. That city is now well on its way to being crime free though, with no LE units needed.

If you have forgiving traits, are vigilant, and aren't at too hard a level, you can stay on top of crime very easily. If you stay on top of crime, it doesn't run away from you. It's only when you turn your back on it that it can suddenly become a very big problem very quickly.

 

[jshetley]

If you have forgiving traits, are vigilant, and aren't at too hard a level, you can stay on top of crime very easily. If you stay on top of crime, it doesn't run away from you. It's only when you turn your back on it that it can suddenly become a very big problem very quickly.

Oh yeah I agree that if it is left unchecked it can get out of hand quickly. I guess another reason may be because I turn off negative traits, although I don't think Roosevelt's negative trait changes crime very much. I also play noble difficulty for now, but may go up a level soon because I run away from the AI in every game I start. In my latest game I'm about to get writing while the AI civs have just gotten Sedentary Lifestyle.

 

[MacCoise]

That early on, the only potential criminals to impact you would be exiles, which would be spottable coming in by a LE unit (they do not start with any camo invisibility at first but can earn it through promos) and when they spawn they spawn outside the borders and cannot enter the borders of the nation that spawned them. Thus those YOU spawn are only going to go out and try to cause trouble for neighbors.

Thus it IS important to get an early LE unit in place to spot disguise (and a unit to take these pests out when they approach your city which can usually be the LE unit as well.)

Some more advanced criminals can spawn from goodies too so watch out for them. Much more dangerous.

So Tribal Guardian is not a LE unit? Is that a change?

 

[JosEPh_II]

While waiting for the Nightmare option to be adapted to the new deity level,

This won't happen until after v37 release. I just don't have the time atm to get it ready for v37 release.

@MacCoise,
At start of game TG does not have any LE promos available. After Watchers are researched or the next one after then TG can start getting those LE promos iirc. Yeah I commented on that several months ago when it 1st happened.

Now If you can get a GG early and use it on the TG then you have a lot more options available to you.

@jshetley,

Yes, You should be playing at least Monarch or Emperor level not Noble.

JosEPh

 

[Toffer90]

@SO: Do we even need the nightmare option anymore?

 

[Noriad2]

This won't happen until after v37 release. I just don't have the time atm to get it ready for v37 release.

In that case, v37 will be another unfinished release. "nice game" then do one play to experience the new features then set it aside waiting for a version that is actually a challenge.

Youtube is full of C2C let's plays in which mediocre players play and completely dominate mid-game (as in being number 1 in score and have a higher score than the next 3 AI players combined). Many nice features but no real challenge once you have learned the rules.

I tried a deity/nightmare game last week and I considered the game won when I reached copper working. Too easy. But maybe it is because the new crime spawns are killing the AI. A few months ago I played SVN9265 and that one was more of a challenge so I had my hopes up.

I planned to do a youtube let's play of v37 (including a lengthy installation guide with troubleshooting). I have already installed and tried out the software to make such videos. But if v37 is still unfinished I may wait for the next version.

 

[Noriad2]

get one unit to focus on investigating (since only the best investigator is the basis of the check while all other investigation-capable units are only adding 10% of their investigation amounts to the total check.)

Which means that if I build 10 enforcers, and give each of them the "Sleuth" promotion, and set them to build up investigation, then 9 promotions and build-ups will be wasted?

I tried it out and it seems to be that way....mousing over the "tower" icon in the city screen (thx for the hint) the "current investigation total" doesn't change if I give more units Sleuth promotions.

Not really an intuitive rule. If I spend several unit promotions on Sleuth, I kinda expect those promotions to be worth something when investigating.

 

[JosEPh_II]

In that case, v37 will be another unfinished release. "nice game" then do one play to experience the new features then set it aside waiting for a version that is actually a challenge.

Youtube is full of C2C let's plays in which mediocre players play and completely dominate mid-game (as in being number 1 in score and have a higher score than the next 3 AI players combined). Many nice features but no real challenge once you have learned the rules.

I tried a deity/nightmare game last week and I considered the game won when I reached copper working. Too easy. But maybe it is because the new crime spawns are killing the AI. A few months ago I played SVN9265 and that one was more of a challenge so I had my hopes up.

I planned to do a youtube let's play of v37 (including a lengthy installation guide with troubleshooting). I have already installed and tried out the software to make such videos. But if v37 is still unfinished I may wait for the next version.

Have you played regular Deity since my changes? Nightmare Deity is inbetween regular Immortal and regular Deity right now. Nightmare is an SO Option for when we still had the old GS and Handicap set up.

Don't know where you are coming from with this "v37 will be another unfinished release..". No release of C2C has Ever been Completely Finished. And probably Never will. I think you are nitpicking.

And if you played 9265 then the current SVN is another advancement on what I did in that version.

And yes the LE and Criminals and H/S and SM have All had updates.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

This won't happen until after v37 release. I just don't have the time atm to get it ready for v37 release.

How much time would you need? I assumed we would all have some time to get some last minute stuff done this weekend and I may find that I'm needing a little more time still myself (though I really don't want to extend into next weekend if we can help it.)

Which means that if I build 10 enforcers, and give each of them the "Sleuth" promotion, and set them to build up investigation, then 9 promotions and build-ups will be wasted?

For the most part, yes. It's far too powerful against criminals otherwise, which seems fine to the player that just defends against them, but to the player that USES them, it starts feeling pretty useless to use them otherwise. This is not to say that those increases in Investigation are USELESS. The total of all investigation values past that given by the most potent investigator is divided by 10 and added in so if you are truly desperate, given how few ways there are to increase your investigation levels, it can still be worthwhile because they don't just fade into a round down to 0 on each LE unit's contribution and CAN really add up. But far more potent is to control crime first and foremost and then have one solid investigation unit. If you then want to push the process faster you can include additional Sleuth promoted/Investigation built-up LE units. No amount of negative crime will help any further than having just gotten rid of all excess crime buildings that could be helping Criminals with their Insidiousness to avoid being investigated with so once that's achieved, the crime control buildup is no less wasteful and if you have criminals lurking still, switching to the investigation buildup can still help.

Not really an intuitive rule. If I spend several unit promotions on Sleuth, I kinda expect those promotions to be worth something when investigating.

I understand that. It was not a decision made lightly. It's not all that different from the way only a primary healer will be chosen to heal a given unit though. I get that this system isn't terribly intuitive in general but it's at least balanced for both criminal and LE unit, which was the most difficult thing to have achieved with it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

How much time would you need? I assumed we would all have some time to get some last minute stuff done this weekend and I may find that I'm needing a little more time still myself (though I really don't want to extend into next weekend if we can help it.)

Because some of the stuff in NM vs regular Handicaps is...how shall I put this...distorted? Regular Handicaps have had some tinkering done in them that is strange as well. It's not linear at all and some values are/seem off. Noble itself is not straight AI = player either, in no way shape or form.

Oh I could go into Nightmare and up some levels here and there but it would still be a mishmash.

And as Toffer posted, why is Nightmare even needed now? Regular Handicaps at the upper end is better anyway. I'm all for hiding NM Option and turning it Off for v37 release.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

And as Toffer posted, why is Nightmare even needed now? Regular Handicaps at the upper end is better anyway. I'm all for hiding NM Option and turning it Off for v37 release.

We just need to make sure SO is ok with that. I'd prefer this to having Nightmare mode be out of whack at release at least.

 

[JosEPh_II]

We just need to make sure SO is ok with that. I'd prefer this to having Nightmare mode be out of whack at release at least.

SO just posted on the Main C2C Discussion thread about turning SD Option off and hiding it because he says it does Not work.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Atm SO is not okay with it. No big problem to me either way. As I don't want the v37 release held up any longer than it has to be. We need to get it out soon.

JosEPh