Opinion: new invisible barbarian thiefs spawning feature is unfriendly for new players

[Thunderbrd]

We need to get it out soon.

Glad you agree with me on this. I've been a madman trying to work on all these bugs here. May not seem like it though because some have been confounding. I think I just corrected the AI bug I had to revert the fix on yesterday though. Then there's just some brought up elsewhere and some serious xml work to be done to wrap up another issue and I was hoping to write a few new barb spawns and then we're good to go. MIGHT be by end of the day tomorrow I can give my personal greenlight but I suspect it'll be a day or two more yet.

I'll be looking for the other members of the team to give their own green lights as well. DH has pretty much given his.

 

[Noriad2]

Oh I could go into Nightmare and up some levels here and there but it would still be a mishmash.

I'd appreciate that, yes. It can always be fine-tuned in the future. Or if that is impossible, please hide the NightMare option for the release. Anything is better than a broken option.

Anyway, while NM is broken I'm going to start a new game with the latest SVN, on normal deity, to test the current state of the game.

The deity/NM game I started last week (reaching early ancient era), the new crime spawns completely crippled one AI neighbour: it is stuck on continually building Enforcers and disbanding them due to lack of money, while crime remains sky high: 587 in one city, 1052 in the other. It simply cannot afford the number of Enforcers necessary to defeat these crime levels. So they are just waiting to be conquered by me at the earliest convenient moment. The other neighbour did a bit better, it could afford enough Enforcers. I think because it had 58,279,067 money stored (not exaggerated). It probably was hit by the massive production bug that Thunderbrd figured out recently, and used it on Lesser Wealth . But I figure that if I conquer one of its cities, I'll loot way too much money. So I'm abandoning that game.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'd appreciate that, yes. It can always be fine-tuned in the future. Or if that is impossible, please hide the NightMare option for the release. Anything is better than a broken option.

Anyway, while NM is broken I'm going to start a new game with the latest SVN, on normal deity, to test the current state of the game.

The deity/NM game I started last week (reaching early ancient era), the new crime spawns completely crippled one AI neighbour: it is stuck on continually building Enforcers and disbanding them due to lack of money, while crime remains sky high: 587 in one city, 1052 in the other. It simply cannot afford the number of Enforcers necessary to defeat these crime levels. So they are just waiting to be conquered by me at the earliest convenient moment. The other neighbour did a bit better, it could afford enough Enforcers. I think because it had 58,279,067 money stored (not exaggerated). It probably was hit by the massive production bug that Thunderbrd figured out recently, and used it on Lesser Wealth . But I figure that if I conquer one of its cities, I'll loot way too much money. So I'm abandoning that game.

SO doesn't want NM hidden...yet.

Glad to hear that you will try a new game on Regular Deity. As I need more feedback then just my own testing.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd appreciate that, yes. It can always be fine-tuned in the future. Or if that is impossible, please hide the NightMare option for the release. Anything is better than a broken option.

Anyway, while NM is broken I'm going to start a new game with the latest SVN, on normal deity, to test the current state of the game.

The deity/NM game I started last week (reaching early ancient era), the new crime spawns completely crippled one AI neighbour: it is stuck on continually building Enforcers and disbanding them due to lack of money, while crime remains sky high: 587 in one city, 1052 in the other. It simply cannot afford the number of Enforcers necessary to defeat these crime levels. So they are just waiting to be conquered by me at the earliest convenient moment. The other neighbour did a bit better, it could afford enough Enforcers. I think because it had 58,279,067 money stored (not exaggerated). It probably was hit by the massive production bug that Thunderbrd figured out recently, and used it on Lesser Wealth . But I figure that if I conquer one of its cities, I'll loot way too much money. So I'm abandoning that game.

What trait options are you using? It sounds like some AIs may be using traits from the beginning of the game and in some cases that can be fairly crippling. I strongly advise Developing Leaders and Start with No Positive Traits. Even now, before my trait set inclusion, this makes for a better-balanced game, particularly for the AI who may find some of the minor penalties quite major at the very beginning of the game.

 

[Noriad2]

What trait options are you using? It sounds like some AIs may be using traits from the beginning of the game and in some cases that can be fairly crippling. I strongly advise Developing Leaders and Start with No Positive Traits. Even now, before my trait set inclusion, this makes for a better-balanced game, particularly for the AI who may find some of the minor penalties quite major at the very beginning of the game.

I use no special trait options. Ethiopia was run by Zara Yaqob, which is Organized, Creative, Cruel. Cruel gives +3 crime/turn when crime is already high according to Sevopedia. But that is peanuts compared to the other sources of crime.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Cruel gives +3 crime/turn when crime is already high according to Sevopedia. But that is peanuts compared to the other sources of crime.

Not so small for the beginning of the game when there's nothing to control it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Also, suddenly I cannot use my rogues to attack units anymore? Is that WAD?

Make sure that if you want to attack with a criminal, you've removed the 'Stay the Hand' Status. It doesn't cost any movement to do so but must be done at the beginning of the turn for them. The reason they start with it as a default is because the game assumes you just want to get them into a city and avoid any trouble along the way.

 

[MacCoise]

Seriously struggling with getting rid of criminals now, This time my second city got a couple of thieves- could see them with dogs but nothing I could do even though city was settled with an Enforcer

Was bankrupt within a few turns

 

[Thunderbrd]

Seriously struggling with getting rid of criminals now, This time my second city got a couple of thieves- could see them with dogs but nothing I could do even though city was settled with an Enforcer

Was bankrupt within a few turns

What difficulty are you on???

 

[Noriad2]

Two more minor suggestions to make the game easier for newbies:

1) Banditry civic should in its description include that new military units receive free Marauder and Industry Espionage promotions
2) since a recent-ish update, Tribal Guardian cannot be set to Buildup Crimefighting anymore at the start of the game. The promotion becomes available with Deception. But by then, the Tribal Guardian is already set to defend and probably forgotten. If Buildup Crimefighting is available from the start, it is available when newbies are investigating the game interface.

 

[MacCoise]

What difficulty are you on???

Monarch. I have tweaked game speeds so that might be my problem

 

[Thunderbrd]

2) since a recent-ish update, Tribal Guardian cannot be set to Buildup Crimefighting anymore at the start of the game. The promotion becomes available with Deception. But by then, the Tribal Guardian is already set to defend and probably forgotten. If Buildup Crimefighting is available from the start, it is available when newbies are investigating the game interface.

Yeah, but this is a part of why you would want to go for Deception. I'm OK with newbies having to look deeper to see the advantage they could get with that.

Monarch. I have tweaked game speeds so that might be my problem

Maybe... that's just pretty rough. I struggle some but only as much as I hoped. So I'm not sure what's causing it to be THAT crippling for you.

 

[Noriad2]

Playing regular deity, I find that *some* AI cities are losing the battle against crime in late prehistoric. See screenshots.

On turn 266 the AI city of Mishano (Jivaro civ) has 13 watchers, 8 thiefs and its central tile has +279 crime.
My rogue leaves the area, comes back in turn 295.
Now there are only 11 watchers, but 10 thiefs, and its central tile has +533 crime. From attacking weak units with my rogue and looting their money I found that Jivaro has very little money stored. So I'm guessing that Mishano is on a build-watcher-disband-watcher cycle.

Crime in other AI cities in turn 295:

The Jivaro capital has +42 in its central tile so its hanging on. But it was slightly negative in turn 266 so it may snowball soon.

Persia's 3 cities have -45, +91, +14 in their central tiles, so the 2nd one may be in trouble soon from snowballing crime. Its surrounding tiles have +30 crime too so the city probably has built the thief spawn autobuildings already.

The two Ethiopian cities I can see have -5 and -35 so they are ok.

The two Byzantine cities I can see have -2 and -39 so they are ok.

So basically Jivaro is probably screwed. Perhaps the spawn rate or effectiveness of thiefs should be *slightly* lessened for the difficulty level the AI is playing on so it would take player assistance for the AI to implode instead of the AI doing the imploding all on its own.

On a positive note, the CTDs have vanished. Haven't had one in many turns.

 

[MacCoise]

Up to recently I had a self-imposed rule of 1 Law Enforcer per 10 pop. It made it quite fun - crime at times increased but overall it was a challenge and very fun.

Now like I said I had three enforcers in my second city (Pop 1) and mugging is bankrupting my Empire. Unless my capital is on constant wealth producing and even then research has to be zero)

 

[Noriad2]

Update on the situation 2 posts above, turn 314:

Persia's 2nd city managed to get crime under control, it is now negative.

Jivaro however continued snowballing towards crime hell. Its capital central tile is now +92 crime and the central tile of its other city it is now +745 crime.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Update on the situation 2 posts above, turn 314:

Persia's 2nd city managed to get crime under control, it is now negative.

Jivaro however continued snowballing towards crime hell. Its capital central tile is now +92 crime and the central tile of its other city it is now +745 crime.

When that city hits the 800 level it will implode. There is some very intense Malus waiting for anyone who lets their Crime Level reach that mark.

When I 1st reset the Individual Crimes and their levels T-brd's LE and Criminal units were not part of the Mod then. Since then his proliferation in this area has upset the balance that was there once, for a brief time anyway.

Since I don't use his SM or HS Option in my personal games I don't have the problem you and MacCoise are posting about. I've not seen any AI succumb to overwhelming Crime levels.

But I have noticed over the last year that many of the Hunter/Gatherer, Cruel, and Temperamental Leaders have serious issues with Crime and Education because of their respective trait combinations. And if their Education is negative enough then Crime becomes even more powerful.

JosEPh

 

[Noriad2]

Korean Empire reached Sedentary Lifestyle on turn 349, 20684 BC, one turn before me :-( (see screenshot)

Which means that current deity is not easy, but playable and probably winnable. I'm looking forward to SO's upcoming new Nightmare option.

Most AI's have crime under control, central city tiles have either negative or mildly positive crime.
The only exception is Jivaro, who continued to descend into crime hell. Its central city tiles are +401 and +829 crime.

There have been no more CTD's. I'm going to reload an early game save, record screenplay, hope that I get those earlier CTD's and see if a clue to them is visible in the last millisecond.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I just noticed in your screenshots that you are using Start as Minor Option. Bad choice for the AI now to use that Option (okay for a MP game though). Actually gives the player an advantage in SP.

Might want to consider Not using it for your next SP Deity game.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I successfully screwed up a neighbor with crime in a test game and I've seen a few AI not handle the criminals well but if an occasional nation succumbs to it badly while most can handle it then I'm thinking we're fine. Traits may need to be rebalanced... and that's one of the first big things you'll see in v38's cycle here. I've sent loads of criminals to spread crime to neighbors only to find that the AI responds exceedingly well and after some rounds of building up the crime control, pretty quickly gets on top of things in most cases.

Joe may well be right about many of his points. SM would have no impact at all on the system but it COULD be made a little more difficult to manage with H&S. But my testing is on H&S and it's working fine for me now although Criminals are slightly harder to uproot. The thing that makes these barb criminals not SOOO bad is that they are programmed to act like local thugs born and raised. AKA, they don't leave just because they are investigated. Criminals from other nations do. This makes them easy arrest targets once investigated.

And yes, the AI IS struggling a little bit between this and the gold adjustments. Not all personalities are handling it well but those that do are doing fine. The Jivaro, ironically, are the leading threat in my game.

 

[MacCoise]

An example of what is happening to me. How do I get rid of the Criminals in my second city?