Opinion: new invisible barbarian thiefs spawning feature is unfriendly for new players

An example of what is happening to me. How do I get rid of the Criminals in my second city?
I'm loading your game and I'll take a look for you so as to see if I can explain how to get out of your pickle without collapsing the nation.

EDIT: You are very lucky that I'm not trying to debug a crash or something in the code. I'd be spewing right now since you renamed the mod! I can load this easier just to take a look at the strategy but the amount of wasted time it would introduce to have to truly debug any game loaded on a renamed mod folder is tremendous. PLEASE keep the mod named Caveman2Cosmos ONLY!
 
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I'm loading your game and I'll take a look for you so as to see if I can explain how to get out of your pickle without collapsing the nation.

EDIT: You are very lucky that I'm not trying to debug a crash or something in the code. I'd be spewing right now since you renamed the mod! I can load this easier just to take a look at the strategy but the amount of wasted time it would introduce to have to truly debug any game loaded on a renamed mod folder is tremendous. PLEASE keep the mod named Caveman2Cosmos ONLY!

Very sorry, much apprecaited
 
Just about everyone seems to make that mistake, not realizing what it causes. I've mentioned it now in the Player's Guide.

Ok, so my strategic analysis of your game:
1) You've had a little bad luck pretty quickly here to get as many criminals as you have. Perhaps some exiles from elsewhere have infested you when you weren't prepared for their approach. But primarily it looks like you may have adopted Banditry before you could manage it or that due to other tactical errors you ended up not being able to manage it later. Thieves are capable of spawning right now because of non-state run theives hideouts that have popped up due to high crime in your second and third cities.

2) You have 2 Lurking Criminals in An Port Mar and 3 in Cuan Donn.

3) Primarily it looks like you've made two core strategic errors that have led to this crime inspired national implosion. You have expanded too fast for your economy and when you did expand, you did not send a Law Enforcement unit along with the settler (that last point is something I do need to teach the AI to do still.) You have 3 cities before the game expects you to even have to manage more than one so you're going to be dealing with some unusual penalties. I suppose you probably managed to do this by getting some free settlers from goody huts right? Beware of these as they can introduce these kind of early management hell scenarios. Given you got these, you would have benefitted to have avoided going for Theft for a while so as to delay opening up the threat of the Thieve's Hideout (Unsanctioned) which emerges in any city over 100 crime when you have the Theft tech.

4)However, not all is lost, though it's going to get worse before it gets better. This truly is a nasty strike scenario. But you aren't going to solve it by building meagre wealth in all your cities when the amount of gold they provide is not going to stave off your strike. Instead, admit to yourself you're going to lose all your units. That's a given. Don't try to do what the AI tries to do in this sort of case and build a bunch of LE units or defenders to try to compensate for its needs when you won't be able to support them anyhow. Instead, understand that this strike cannot stop you from developing your cities by constructing buildings. Obviously, one of the first things you need to develop is crime control buildings but you need to first get yourself to the point where you can build them quickly.

5)So the first thing to do immediately is (and this is going to put you in a race against time before some random barbarian or neanderthal comes in for an attack against your unprotected cities) build the cheapest production producing buildings first and foremost so you can pop out everything else much faster thereafter. No amount of crime impedes your city production until it causes your happiness to collapse and your workers to stop working. So do everything you can to keep your high population capital from imploding. Keep it in the negative on crime or you're really going to be in trouble. My point is, even though you want to get all production benefits first there, you don't want to do so blindly... monitor it and build an anti crime buildng in there if you can or an Enforcer if you can manage it if crime starts creeping in. You may even benefit from switching OFF the Banditry civic immediately until you're back on top of your crime nationwide.

6)Once your secondary cities have built all available (or at least available cheap) production producing buildings, start immediately working on building anti-crime buildings. You also want as much gold producing buildings for cheap that you can produce so as to quickly get yourself to the point that you can begin to afford some units for protection and anti-crime. Abandon all attempts to further grow your population or research until you get on top of this issue.

7)When you start getting back on top here, you'll have some runaway crime, yes. But the good news is that the crimes that can emerge are still pretty limited thanks to the low tech level. So even a huge amount of crime can only hurt you so much. And some happiness and gold producing buildings can counter those losses. Once you can afford to staff LE units, gradually enhance your crime control presence, starting with as much a focus as you can on simply reducing the crime level itself. Once you have crime taking a nose dive, then you'll want to train ONE LE unit, in each city that has lurking criminals, to specialize in all promotions and buildups that can give it Investigation values.

8) Once crime emergent buildings that are making it easy for those lurking thieves to hide out in your city are removed by diminishing the crime in your cities to 0 or less, you'll find that the investigator starts getting a real chance to successfully investigate these lurking criminals. Once investigated, you'll want to arrest them with an LE unit that's specialized as possible in combating criminals. If you don't have one or cannot afford to have one, then just try the arrest with one of your anti-crime LE units. Usually criminals are pushovers against any sort of LE unit anyhow. (But I HAVE seen an arrest lead to the death of the arresting officer!) Once you've gotten to this point where this begins happening, your city is usually freed up to focus on research and further growth.


The lesson here is that if you overgrow in population or city count too early, you can quickly end up causing yourself some serious nightmares. But you can always recover, even if it may lead to great risk during the effort to recover, as your cities end up unprotected thanks to the strike scenario.


EDIT: On further review I see you spammed for Tribalism so you really did grow into this without providing yourself with the economic platform to survive this fast a growth curve. Supporting additional cities without Barter is really tough.

This game is actually a really awesome 'dig yourself out of the hole' training scenario. I may want to do a Let's Play instructional video off this! lol Or use it for turning it over to the AI to see if I can train the AI to dig themselves out of this sort of situation as well.
 
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Thanks a lot. I have learned a lot.

I did send Enforcers with my settlers- have moved them all to the most troublesome city now. The Thieves emerged despite this....

I didnt get any free settlers- I built Tribes as soon as I could

Guess I just got unlucky to a point. I am concious that I have edited certain things that may be causing problems.
 
I did send Enforcers with my settlers- have moved them all to the most troublesome city now. The Thieves emerged despite this....
So they've just vanished due to the strike of course. Balancing production growth and crime control in a new city is a hell of a challenge I'm trying to learn how to best manage myself at the moment so you really cannot be blamed for that either. But one thing you could do that would make it a little easier is to quickly build the Exile Practices building, which I notice you have avoided. That -2 crime can mean a LOT since you aren't paying for it round after round and if you happen to spawn Barbarian Exiles in the process, they cannot be a problem for YOU because spawned Exiles remember what nation they were spawned from and they cannot enter the borders of that nation. Thus they can only benefit you by harassing other nations or being XP earning foes to go after in the wild if you can spot them. They don't tend to attack ever, just seek the closest opponent city they can find to cause trouble in.

Another tip: Right now you're using your tribal guardian to build up for investigations but the capital is not in positive crime so it won't pop any criminals. Keep it more likely to stay that way right now by building up crime control instead.
 
So they've just vanished due to the strike of course. Balancing production growth and crime control in a new city is a hell of a challenge I'm trying to learn how to best manage myself at the moment so you really cannot be blamed for that either. But one thing you could do that would make it a little easier is to quickly build the Exile Practices building, which I notice you have avoided. That -2 crime can mean a LOT since you aren't paying for it round after round and if you happen to spawn Barbarian Exiles in the process, they cannot be a problem for YOU because spawned Exiles remember what nation they were spawned from and they cannot enter the borders of that nation. Thus they can only benefit you by harassing other nations or being XP earning foes to go after in the wild if you can spot them. They don't tend to attack ever, just seek the closest opponent city they can find to cause trouble in.

Another tip: Right now you're using your tribal guardian to build up for investigations but the capital is not in positive crime so it won't pop any criminals. Keep it more likely to stay that way right now by building up crime control instead.

Yeah I like to have high espionage so avoid Exiles. I think this one is beyond my skill to salvage.

Thanks again and keep up the great work
 
It's always been our goal to get a player to find that they can grow faster by limiting their speed of growth. The criminals aren't the only issue here. The economic strength to support growth was not provided before you reached out to grow and you ended up with an economic and criminal implosion as a result. It happens. I'd practice with this game on how to dig out of the hole out of fun more than anything.

Part of what you're experiencing is the much MUCH tougher economic balance factors. Gold is no longer a non-issue in C2C thanks to Joseph's excellent rebalancing efforts making it a challenge again and a side of the game that takes some care and attention like it never has before.
 
Yes the gold balance is a lot better now.

My frustation comes from seeing that Crime was rising in Cuan Donn but not being able to arrest the 3 thieves I could see with a Dog and then watching it snowball after I had all possible anti-crime buildings and three enforcers. The helplessness causes the frustration
 
That's a classic issue for law enforcement officers in stories though isn't it? They know these guys are up to no good but can't do anything about it because they haven't been able to prove it yet? Crime spawning buidings like the unsanctioned thieve's hideout also make it tougher to investigate them because it enhances their Insidiousness, which is the value that criminals can work on to make it harder to investigate and thus arrest them. Seeing them isn't enough.
 
Perhaps respecting due process should be civic-dependent. OTOH less due process might mean more innocents in prison.
 
Perhaps respecting due process should be civic-dependent. OTOH less due process might mean more innocents in prison.
I considered that but the primary reason to enforce this large grey zone struggle at exactly the balance it's at is so that use of criminals by players is not too greatly undermined by giving players a means to eliminate criminals in their cities. It must be a challenge to uproot them or there's no point in using them as a hostile non-warfare dependent tool in the leader's toolkit. We can't make it too easy for LE units and we can't make it too easy for Criminal units. It must strike a balance.

Maybe down the road some deeper stuff can guide a dynamic for what you're talking about but there would have to be a penalty, as you mention, for a reduced due process. One that equates to how much easier it is to take down local criminals. Such as 'ghost' criminals (suspected innocents) that when arrested lead to nothing but massive problems and unrest and possibly undermining the city by removing a 'free specialist' for a time or something like that. It cannot be as simple as enabling arrest as soon as you can see a criminal or we might as well just sign off criminal units as being completely useless.

This system, like nearly all C2C systems, is due for eventual improvements. At the moment, the main thing I'm debating is whether or not to option out the whole arrest and criminal spawning dynamic, but it was the answer to a previous core problem for introducing criminals to the game at all, how to give the player a means to get rid of them while not making it useless to use them yourself. The emerging criminals could be made optional but currently, the coding for AI players to get criminals into your cities is not fully fleshed out yet so this provides a means by which you get to experience the mechanisms and learn how to work with and against them from both angles. And it has a lot of real-world inspirations in it as well. If I were to option it out, I'm wondering if it should just be to option Crime and criminals and law enforcement out as a whole for those newer players not yet ready to try to adapt to the whole structure of criminality in C2C. Where to draw the lines and if it's even necessary to do so is the issue at hand.

Another way to address some of these complaints is to provide a global that can be manipulated to make it more or less likely to get criminals spawning. That might help to provide some preference adjustment capacity.

One thing to keep in mind is that criminal emergence CAN be a huge benefit for the nation. You often get captives out of them once you've arrested them and we know captives can be a huge benefit, especially when you don't have to take time to march them back from a distant war victory.
 
This is pretty much what I meant. And we should remember, at first things like torture were not banned for humanitarian reasons, but for the fact that governments (slowly ... very slowly) learnt that you don't get the truth by applying torture, but instead you just get to hear what you want to hear - you learn nothing new. This does not help you in the slightest. In fact, these 'ghost' criminals you mentioned might have a regular occurence in police states. And then there are things like witch-burning, which is popular, but should pretty much destroy your ability to generate science or education.
 
This is pretty much what I meant. And we should remember, at first things like torture were not banned for humanitarian reasons, but for the fact that governments (slowly ... very slowly) learnt that you don't get the truth by applying torture, but instead you just get to hear what you want to hear - you learn nothing new. This does not help you in the slightest. In fact, these 'ghost' criminals you mentioned might have a regular occurence in police states. And then there are things like witch-burning, which is popular, but should pretty much destroy your ability to generate science or education.
I agree that this opens up a new world of potential added design factors that could help to model some pretty serious stuff in human history!
 
If we really want to be realistic, the law enforcement units themselves might be on the take or not 100% loyal to the empire. Especially if you haven't yet developed a strong legal system or efficient administrative state. So maybe those Enforcers aren't doing their job because they don't see it as in their interest to do so.

I've toyed with the idea of developing a new Freedom property. Freedom can be enhanced by choosing the right civics and building a (fair) justice system. Freedom can be diminished by choosing authoritarian civics and building so much law enforcement that the empire turns into a police state. Freer citizens are happier, more productive, and less inclined to rebel. That would encourage the player to rely more on buildings and less on big stacks of law enforcement to keep crime down.
 
If we really want to be realistic, the law enforcement units themselves might be on the take or not 100% loyal to the empire. Especially if you haven't yet developed a strong legal system or efficient administrative state. So maybe those Enforcers aren't doing their job because they don't see it as in their interest to do so.

I've toyed with the idea of developing a new Freedom property. Freedom can be enhanced by choosing the right civics and building a (fair) justice system. Freedom can be diminished by choosing authoritarian civics and building so much law enforcement that the empire turns into a police state. Freer citizens are happier, more productive, and less inclined to rebel. That would encourage the player to rely more on buildings and less on big stacks of law enforcement to keep crime down.
Surprisingly enough, I do have a plan that will eventually enable us to have corruption among the police force (and all units) represented. This has all been a big stage of preparation that's working towards that goal.

I've previously proposed that negative crime be considered 'oppression' and that it carry some penalties of its own. The reason it has not yet been implemented is that the property AI system is based on one direction being perceived by the AI as being good and the other bad and it could require some more complexity in coding challenges to address having a property that needs to be balanced rather than just fought. However, looking at how cities are handling things with crime for the AI, it MIGHT be pretty much on target to be ok with this now so long as 'oppression' gave a decently wide margin before beginning to become a severe issue.

The same basic issues would plague the Freedom property, where the same unit is used to create problems but is also used for control of problems. Plus, economically, the buildings are a better deal until you can't build any more to get some help from them anyhow because they don't cost gold upkeep as the units do. Though they CAN bring their own penalties.

Anyhow, my point is that we're thinking alike here so that's cool to see how on the same page we actually are. I'm not planning to work on Oppression yet but if someone started tinkering around with planning some implementation on it I'd be supportive of that project.
 
I like the idea. As it is now, I think Tourism is the only property that is not unambiguously good or bad. (Well, maybe education is bad if you want rapid population growth, but there are much better ways to do that.)

At the risk of venturing too far out of the realm of game design and into the realm of politics, one thing that makes me uncomfortable about oppression, as you described it, is that it is diametrically opposed to crime. It seems to be based on a notion that freedom and security are two opposing concepts that need to be balanced. In actuality, societies can have both freedom and security, and the history of social progress over the course of human history has been the invention of systems that allow both. Devices like written law codes, constitutions, guaranteed civil liberties, and minority rights are good for both freedom and security. By contrast, it seems to me (granted, I haven't looked at any numbers or hard research on this) that oppressive regimes seem to be much less safe places to live, even for obedient citizens.

On the other hand, the system you described would be easier to implement. We could add a handful of oppression buildings that have negative crime requirements, like Draconian Judiciary at Code of Laws, Press Censorship at Printing Press, or Racial Profiling at Minority Rights. And from a gameplay standpoint, it further reinforces the idea that a ruler must weight the pros and cons of all decisions.

Circling all the way back to the original post, I am inclined to agree that the current system of dealing with criminal units is tough for new players. I like the system, but it has flaws, mainly that it is somewhat opaque. Sometimes I miss the notification that a new criminal unit spawns, and only later do I find myself scratching my head that crime is out of control in a city. And maybe it should be a little easier for law enforcement units to make the arrest once a unit has been discovered.
 
It seems to be based on a notion that freedom and security are two opposing concepts that need to be balanced. In actuality, societies can have both freedom and security, and the history of social progress over the course of human history has been the invention of systems that allow both. Devices like written law codes, constitutions, guaranteed civil liberties, and minority rights are good for both freedom and security. By contrast, it seems to me (granted, I haven't looked at any numbers or hard research on this) that oppressive regimes seem to be much less safe places to live, even for obedient citizens.
That's very much the notion I would ascribe to. I would say you're right that both can live in harmony with one another, but that's only if they are in balance. If you are too heavy handed in trying to control the actions and behaviors of the people then you will oppress them. If you are too loose with your regulations and enforcement, people will seek to take advantage of the situation for unfair personal gain (crime). Oppressive regimes are almost a form of crime in itself at the extreme of course. But few dare to resist and those that do are not perceived as 'criminals' so much as they are perceived as 'freedom fighters' or 'rebels'. You'll see that in the Criminal upgrade chains, some of the units along that upgrade path do exemplify this nature of 'criminal'. This really is to suggest that crime itself is sometimes a justified, even necessary GOOD rather than always an evil. A true utopic society is nearly impossible because it is so difficult to keep forces in perfect balance everywhere they exist and no system has managed to have this down to a perfection.

On the other hand, the system you described would be easier to implement. We could add a handful of oppression buildings that have negative crime requirements, like Draconian Judiciary at Code of Laws, Press Censorship at Printing Press, or Racial Profiling at Minority Rights. And from a gameplay standpoint, it further reinforces the idea that a ruler must weight the pros and cons of all decisions.
You're already thinking much deeper into the way we would implement than I ever have and I'm getting goosebumps from these suggestions. I am REALLY a fan of this concept!

Circling all the way back to the original post, I am inclined to agree that the current system of dealing with criminal units is tough for new players. I like the system, but it has flaws, mainly that it is somewhat opaque. Sometimes I miss the notification that a new criminal unit spawns, and only later do I find myself scratching my head that crime is out of control in a city. And maybe it should be a little easier for law enforcement units to make the arrest once a unit has been discovered.
I've gotta resist trying to make it easier to control crime here because I really want to promote the USE of criminals as an extremely effective tool to damage your foes with. Having tested it from the other side of the fence and finding that it's almost already too frustratingly easy for the AI to investigate your criminals, I'm extremely reluctant to rebalance things here. Maybe I can add a handicap info factor that can make it easier if you are HUMAN and you are on easier difficulty settings to investigate or something. DH has suggested some interesting screenwork to enhance the system but that's beyond my personal ability. I've added a lot of information to the Defense Hover in the city to make the system a lot more opaque for the player but if players aren't reading the Players Guide for v37 and they don't explore that hover panel they won't tend to find it on their own. Another panel somewhere on the city screen might be a good way to break down some of the information on what's taking place.

On non H&S games, this feature is REALLY easy to work with because criminals are almost impossible to keep hidden. Of course, that leads to the stated feelings of frustration in trying to get those lurking criminals into a Wanted Status. After Assassins, it does get a little easier to address these criminals as well because assassins can attempt an assassination on other criminals if the Without Warning option is on. And I do intend to eventually provide a set of promotions to expand on that for even earlier criminal units like thieves so they can try to take down their competitors in the city as well. Thus it can 'take one to catch one'. I felt the need to get v37 completed before it had fully managed to encompass completion of all the projects I'd planned for it...
 
Ah, I see. I myself haven't really gotten into using criminal units myself. Too much of a goody two-shoes, I guess. I'll try that and see how it works.
 
We could add a handful of oppression buildings that have negative crime requirements, like Draconian Judiciary at Code of Laws, Press Censorship at Printing Press, or Racial Profiling at Minority Rights.

Or perhaps (in the long run) you could have a set of (civics/worldviews?) in a progression like Arbitrary Rule, Spontaneous Justice (the leader gives out rulings on a whim but tries to be good), Due process (law enforcement follows certain rules), Rule of Law (there are certain laws that govern how justice is served, and these laws must exist beforehand), Constitution (the way such laws are created is given a clear structure), Fundamental Rights (there are certain rights even lawmakers cannot violate), etc.
 
Or perhaps (in the long run) you could have a set of (civics/worldviews?) in a progression like Arbitrary Rule, Spontaneous Justice (the leader gives out rulings on a whim but tries to be good), Due process (law enforcement follows certain rules), Rule of Law (there are certain laws that govern how justice is served, and these laws must exist beforehand), Constitution (the way such laws are created is given a clear structure), Fundamental Rights (there are certain rights even lawmakers cannot violate), etc.
Perhaps we're talking about trying to achieve two different objectives here and we need to get clear on what those are.

1) We want to introduce a set of civics that can modify the manner in which the Investigation/Arrest feature operates - I plan an addon to that feature already for a trial segment and such a civic set for legal procedures in the nation could influence the process at numerous junctures, from the investigation to the arrest to the manner in which the trial carries out and what optional outcomes can be had from that trial.

and

2) We want to represent how a heavy-handed government can become an oppressor, perhaps even simply by following the road to hell paved with good intentions, trying too hard to secure the nation from the scourge of crime that criminals start becoming the heroes and the law enforcers becoming the villains.

Both of these objectives can and probably should bleed over into the other and will require some amazing planning in design to be done in a balanced and thorough manner. I suggest, too, that y'all wait to see one of the first projects I'm committed to for v38's development cycle - the Advanced Disease System converted to apply to any property gives us a highly advanced set of rules we can use for Crime Waves and Criminal Behavior promotions for all unit types that succumb to criminal thinking. With such a system, even a good cop can become a dirty one. ;) I also want to get the basics of the trial mechanism built out. Both of these 'next steps' would be awesome to work in tandem with those above 2 goals as well.

Man... I have a LOT of projects in mind for v38!
 
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