Opinions of France

[GT_OKEZ]

What are your opinions about France? Here are mine:

The good : You can wonder spam in three eras including getting awesome ones like Forbidden City, Bolshoi Theater, Hermitage and Ruhr Valley. Revealing the hidden agenda + extra spy as Catherine can help you navigate diplomacy better even though diplomacy is a bit buggy in Civ VI still. Getting more notifications on what enemy civs are doing can be useful in Multiplayer as well. Information is power especially when they clean up the bugs with this. The double tourism for wonders can really be a nice boost towards a cultural victory.

The bad: Chateau isn't a great tile improvement as it lacks any sort of production. Garde Imperiale is a strong unit, especially when used right, but comes rather late in the game. France has to be mindful on which districts it chooses to build first as it has no unique district advantages.

The ugly: France has no early game boosts which means you're playing on the back foot against civilizations that have those advantages. France really comes online in the mid-game but that relies on getting to the mid-game in a good position which can be challenging for this Civ. You basically have to play a vanilla early game which can set you up for a bad game for the rest of the game against stronger Civs.

Way I'm playing France is that I'm trying to establish 5-6 cities early in the game to get my cultural base going. I build only 2 campuses while while almost every city gets an IZ, commercial hub, and theater districts. I find prioritizing these districts the most difficult part since I would like the boosts from the campuses for some mid-game wonders but at the same time I'm not really looking to play a science game. Production is king so I try to put that as a priority followed by commerce then culture. Trade routes really benefit Catherine.

France is one of those Civs were you probably have to spend extra time planning your science and civics tree in order to get the correct boosts as well as planning your districts/wonders and then prioritize which are more important relative to what terrain you get.

 

[RealHuhn]

The chateau is hilariously awful. I haven't build a single one in my last game.

But yes, quick expansion to 6-8 cities into mid game wonder spam with spy support is a very valid strategy against the AI. I also really like that you see the 2nd hidden agenda immediately after you establish an embassy or trade route. Makes diplomacy a lot easier. In my game I had 3 allies at the same time (who all hated each other ).
Also, with high level spies I stole great works left, right and center. Fun times.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I played my first game as them and they kind of suck? The lack of early bonuses sucks, Espionage is a HUGE hassle, you can't really do anything productive with diplomatic access because the AI will hate you regardless of your strategy, chateaux are, as said, really really bad tile improvements (especially because the +2 culture bonus from wonders DOESN'T stack!! if it did, it would be a decent tile improvement imo)

That being said, the wonder bonus and especially the double tourism you get from them is fairly sweet. It saves quite a bit of turns and yes, a cheaper Ruhr Valley can cause them to spam wonders like crazy.

The Garde Impérial isn't bad either, but was of no use to me in my game. (I didn't go to war until after I researched replacable parts)

Overall though, I feel like they're really weak compared to the bonii other civs get. Nkisi, Mother Russia, People of the Steppes, etc, are pretty insane and Grand Tour/CFS are kind of meh in comparison. It wouldn't surprise me if they were the weakest Civ in the game (though still usuable).

 

[Mustakrakish]

As a playable civ, I have nothing to say about it except that chateu is really bad.

But I like having her around, like to hear her chitchat, can't understand crap, but it's pleasant nontheless. She's not annoying as Cleo.

 

[isau]

It wouldn't surprise me if they were the weakest Civ in the game (though still usuable).

IMO that role belongs to Spain. Reliant on founding a religion for a number of abilities but without any reliable way to found said religion.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

One gripe I have with France: the two wonders that are by far the most helpful for the Culture Victory, Eiffel Tower and Cristo Redentor, are both Modern-era wonders. It's pretty sad and athematic that France can't get a bonus on the Eiffel Tower

Catherine's Leader UA is near-worthless. The AI will hate you anyway, now you'll just know exactly why they're hating you. And you can build an extra incredibly expensive spy earlier. Great.

The Chateau, like most unique tile improvements in this game, is awful and basically never worth building or working.

The Guard UU is OK, but I don't think it can compete with some of the dominant UUs that come much earlier, or even with the Redcoat (that comes at the same time). Meh.

Her extra tourism from wonders is worth roughly 12 tourism per wonder at the very end of the game (assuming you're in the information era and have researched computers). So maybe 120 or so tourism in the end, if you've gone very wonder-heavy. OK, but not amazing, given how easy it is for wide players to generate insane amounts of tourism as the game currently works. It's also too bad that tourism does nothing in this game if you're not going for a culture victory. If tourism had ancillary benefits, France would be a bit better.

Overall, I'd put her 16th out of 18 civs, ahead of Spain and Norway. Fun to play though. I like wonders.

 

[isau]

I will say one thing for France. Catherine is the go-to civ for my mod testing because of the extra Diplo visibility and not having any early game modifiers that would throw off observation. I realize that's not saying much, but it's something.


I'm thinking of adding some new features for France and Spain to bring them up. Spain I think will be easy to add a religion bonus to. What improvements do you guys think are appropriate for France? I'm leaning toward:
- Moving the tech that reveals Catherine's spies from Castles to Masonry
- Improving the chateau somehow. I am leaning toward giving it Housing, since Housing doesn't require you to work the tile. Plus it's a chateau, which is a house.

 

[ScorpionTDC]

- Improving the chateau somehow. I am leaning toward giving it Housing, since Housing doesn't require you to work the tile. Plus it's a chateau, which is a house.

I love the idea of a Chateau adding housing. I also think it should be unlocked earlier, it comes WAY late for a unique tile improvement. Even Castles would be better, and sorta logical

 

[CaiusDrewart]

I will say one thing for France. Catherine is the go-to civ for my mod testing because of the extra Diplo visibility and not having any early game modifiers that would throw off observation. I realize that's not saying much, but it's something.


I'm thinking of adding some new features for France and Spain to bring them up. Spain I think will be easy to add a religion bonus to. What improvements do you guys think are appropriate for France? I'm leaning toward:
- Moving the tech that reveals Catherine's spies from Castles to Masonry
- Improving the chateau somehow. I am leaning toward giving it Housing, since Housing doesn't require you to work the tile. Plus it's a chateau, which is a house.

Not sure about moving the Spy to Masonry. Spies are absurdly expensive (350H on standard!) and there's no way you'll want to make that in the early game. A 25% discount of spies would be better.

I love giving the Chateau housing--very thematic--but it's going to need a better yield, too. It should at least be sometimes better to work than a normal tile improvement.

 

[fotonut]

The Chateau, like most unique tile improvements in this game, is awful and basically never worth building or working.

When next to a wonder and luxury, it's a little better, 3 culture, 1 gold.

 

[GT_OKEZ]

Not just taking about the Chateau but unique tile improvements in general I think they should grant their bonuses without having to work the tile. Perhaps nerf some of the bonuses they give to compensate and treat them as districts where they can't be worked. I think that would make unique tile improvements more appealing and worth making.

 

[Promethian]

I'd say the buff should be to give France a spy for free at Castles. I'm a little afraid it will make them too good though.

 

[TheXMassTeam]

What improvements do you guys think are appropriate for France?

Adjacencies bonus for Château :
+1 food (max) if near a farm
+1 culture if near a cultural zone
+1 gold if near a commerce zone
Unable to build 2 adjacent chateau.
When atomic era start, chateau loose his +1 food and get a +X% tourism for town (probably need a cap to avoid exploit)

 

[leandrombraz]

The Chateau might be a weak improvement to work as a source of culture, that also come too late for that but keep in mind that it's a source of tourism. Each Chateau next to a wonder generate 6 tourism, 2 without wonder. If you're going for cultural, it's a good source of tourism, where France really thrives. France can build a lot of wonders, which give double tourism + the Chateau tourism near it.

The Garde Impériale is screwed by its position in the tech tree and the Replaceable Parts tech. You want the Replaceable Parts passive ability (better farm adjacency) but the tech happens to unlock Infantry. Chances are you will just beeline replaceable parts for the farms and stick with the Infantry, instead of going all the way in the bottom of the tech tree to unlock a unit with a bonus in your home continent that earns great general points, unless you're dying for great general points and prefer it over growth.

Catherine's UA is pretty good if you want to play the diplomatic game, you can plan ahead and start investing on whatever will improve your relations. Also, don't hurt to be able to have an extra spy.

 

[Frank327]

The Chateau might be a weak improvement to work as a source of culture, that also come too late for that but keep in mind that it's a source of tourism. Each Chateau next to a wonder generate 6 tourism, 2 without wonder. If you're going for cultural, it's a good source of tourism, where France really thrives. France can build a lot of wonders, which give double tourism + the Chateau tourism near it.

The Garde Impériale is screwed by its position in the tech tree and the Replaceable Parts tech. You want the Replaceable Parts passive ability (better farm adjacency) but the tech happens to unlock Infantry. Chances are you will just beeline replaceable parts for the farms and stick with the Infantry, instead of going all the way in the bottom of the tech tree to unlock a unit with a bonus in your home continent that earns great general points, unless you're dying for great general points and prefer it over growth.

Catherine's UA is pretty good if you want to play the diplomatic game, you can plan ahead and start investing on whatever will improve your relations. Also, don't hurt to be able to have an extra spy.

That's great if true but I kinda feel like this information is way too hidden. I also don't have a clue how much tourism wonders actually generate. Or am I just being blind?

 

[Exodite]

I find the aspect I've enjoyed the most as France is actually the additional diplomatic visibility. Which, given the very moderate utility of diplomacy as things stand is pretty telling.

Lacking any early game bonuses it outright terrible, as the game is pretty much centered around snowballing. And the bonuses they do get are pretty darn mediocre when they do show up.

I'm satisfied with France placed squarely in the bottom-tier list.

She's not annoying as Cleo.

Come on, Cleopatra is awesome!

The only reason I'm not playing as Egypt more is because that'd deny me her delicious overacting.

She's the Nick Cage of Civ6!

When next to a wonder and luxury, it's a little better, 3 culture, 1 gold.

It doesn't provide either food or production, which means it's largely pointless. You're never going to replace a base tile improvement that provides any of those things with a Chateau, which means it's mostly relegated to tiles that can't have any other improvements.

Culture, faith, gold and science are nice as bonuses but they're so much weaker than food and production to be almost entirely an afterthought.

The only unique tile improvement I'd consider strong at the moment is India's Stepwell, as that has the potential to provide some very significant benefits and is arguably an upgraded farm,

 

[leandrombraz]

That's great if true but I kinda feel like this information is way too hidden. I also don't have a clue how much tourism wonders actually generate. Or am I just being blind?

Use the tourism lens to see that, it show how much tourism each tile is generating.

 

[leandrombraz]

I find the aspect I've enjoyed the most as France is actually the additional diplomatic visibility. Which, given the very moderate utility of diplomacy as things stand is pretty telling.

Lacking any early game bonuses it outright terrible, as the game is pretty much centered around snowballing. And the bonuses they do get are pretty darn mediocre when they do show up.

I'm satisfied with France placed squarely in the bottom-tier list.


Come on, Cleopatra is awesome!

The only reason I'm not playing as Egypt more is because that'd deny me her delicious overacting.

She's the Nick Cage of Civ6!

It doesn't provide either food or production, which means it's largely pointless. You're never going to replace a base tile improvement that provides any of those things with a Chateau, which means it's mostly relegated to tiles that can't have any other improvements.

Culture, faith, gold and science are nice as bonuses but they're so much weaker than food and production to be almost entirely an afterthought.

The only unique tile improvement I'd consider strong at the moment is India's Stepwell, as that has the potential to provide some very significant benefits and is arguably an upgraded farm,

If you aren't going cultural, yeah it's pointless but if you're trying to hoard tourism it's more than worth building the Chateau. Also, lets face it, even though there's more things you need to build directly on tiles in Civ VI, there's less need for tiles (farms are more efficient, industrial districts area effect are a huge source of production). You will hardly be giving up on food or production to build a chateau and it doesn't need to be worked to get tourism, chances are you just have the tile to spare. The only issue is that it doesn't provide housing, though by the time the chateau shine you probably already have neighborhoods.

 

[TheXMassTeam]

I also don't have a clue how much tourism wonders actually generate.

In my last french game, Mont St Michel generated 11k tourism. The culture zone in the same town (can't remember the exact name) generated 15k tourism and 391 for the last chateau I had (he was not near a wonder). There is a mini-map option to check instant tourism generation, and on mouse over you have the total generated over time.

 

[isau]

Here's the experimental mod I'm tweaking with for France currently:

- Changed pre-req from Humanism to Culture and Poetry
- Added 1 Housing
- Added Appeal bonus Tourism similar to a Beach Resort, but without a minimum Appeal requirement or need to be near Ocean (Chateau already requires a River).
- Moving appearance of spies from Castles to Masonry (still working on this part)


I will report back with how it goes.