Optimal Horseman Rush

[Vordeo]

Yes, horsemen are pretty overpowered at the moment, and yes, rushing with them is kinda cheesy. However, it's still pretty fun, and I'm the kind of guy who enjoyed playing Rome in CivIV anyways.

Thus, I pose the question: how do you perform horseman rushes? What's your build order, what's your tech queue, etc.? By what turn can you get your rush going? Also, what do you use to scout (starting warrior or scout?), do you sell luxuries, etc? What initial social policies do you unlock?

My current strat is beeline horseback riding, while building worker (I don't like worker stealing), monument (until the city grows a bit, at least), settler. Settle on horse (if capital doesn't have any), then pump out 3-4 horses and go to town. It works, but just seems sub-optimal.

So yeah, post your horse rush strats here, and hopefully we can get a decent discussion going.

 

[Paeanblack]

Tech straight to HBR.

Build order is: scout (depending on map size, else warrior), warrior, warrior, settler, warrior, horseman.

First city gets dropped on the horses. Builds warriors until HBR.

 

[bigwinw]

I have to disagree. I would go Worker first no matter what. How are you going to improve a horse resource without a worker? I guess you could take that settler and build it on top of some horses.

 

[stormerne]

Settle capital immediately. It's rare on any difficulty level to be more than 2 tiles away from horses, but you can't see where they are till animal husbandry.

Beeline horseback riding. After reaching that, it's up to you. Mining and trapping will help in case you have to get a luxury for happiness.

In capital, build scout, worker, settler*, something else**, horseman, horseman, more***
* Settle second city next to horses and another resource for happiness if possible. You can take your worker from the capital along with the settler and your warrior. In second city build horseman immediately and keep doing so.
** If things don't synchronize, start to build something else and switch out once you have HBR and pastured horses.
*** Save 410 gold to buy another horseman. Keep pumping them out from normal production just in case.

Explore with scout and warrior is different directions. Make sure your warrior gets back in time to escort your settler (and worker).

Buy a tile to get horses if you have to. In the 10% of games where you have no horses near your capital, be prepared to settle a third city.

Take the Honor tree. Also Discipline if you get enough culture points. Only consider taking Warrior Code instead if you're playing as Mongolia as only a Khan can keep up with your horses. Whether you get any more policies depends on how many civs you're against. For duel it'll all be over before turn 85 at the outside, at ANY difficulty level and no matter how slow or unlucky your starting position!

Do not attack until all your horseman are ready. In fact, only advance them and move them into position when they're all ready. If you're playing Prince and below, you'll only need three. Above that I would take at least four. (I took seven at Immortal once when I was delayed because of not having nearby horses and I needed them all! Whereas I only needed four at deity as Alex.) If you're playing against multiple civs, keep building till you run out of horses as you'll probably need them all.

Consider sharpening your early horseman's experience on nearby barbs while he's waiting for his team mates. Always promote to fully heal, whether it's against a barb or a city attack.

Prior to the attack, position your horsemen ideally as close as possible to the opposing city. Try to get a flatland run-in to the opposing capital. Think about how many attack tiles you'll use next to the city and where the horse will go immediately after the attack. Don't worry about -33% on defence. Don't worry about barrage.

Go for the capital first if you can. Always aim to take out a city in a single turn. With multiple civs, aim to take out all cities for one civ on the same turn, or three turns at the max.

The AI will get querulous and say they noticed you putting troops on their borders. Your options are to declare war right then or say no we're just passing through. ALWAYS LIE by saying you're passing through! If you declare war then, it's their turn, you may not be in the optimum position and they get first strike (= very bad). Declare war when you want to and just take the hit to your rep.

City states will give you cash when you meet them with your scout/warrior. Save it for buying horsemen. Do not bother with allying with them. If you happen to fulfill a quest when practising on barbs, that's a mere extra. Never worry if a city states declares on you when you're attacking a full civ. When scouting use the amount they give you as an indicator as to how close you are to another civ.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I have to disagree. I would go Worker first no matter what. How are you going to improve a horse resource without a worker? I guess you could take that settler and build it on top of some horses.

Worker theft. Identify your victim early, wait for a Worker positioning fail, declare war and steal Workers, and then use your Warriors to lure out defending Warriors and farm them for promotions.

 

[Snapp]

In capital, build scout, worker, settler*, something else**, horseman, horseman, more***

Prior to the attack, position your horsemen ideally as close as possible to the opposing city. Try to get a flatland run-in to the opposing capital. Think about how many attack tiles you'll use next to the city and where the horse will go immediately after the attack. Don't worry about -33% on defence. Don't worry about barrage.

The AI will get querulous and say they noticed you putting troops on their borders. Your options are to declare war right then or say no we're just passing through. ALWAYS LIE by saying you're passing through! If you declare war then, it's their turn, you may not be in the optimum position and they get first strike (= very bad). Declare war when you want to and just take the hit to your rep.

City states will give you cash when you meet them with your scout/warrior. Save it for buying horsemen. Do not bother with allying with them. If you happen to fulfill a quest when practising on barbs, that's a mere extra. Never worry if a city states declares on you when you're attacking a full civ. When scouting use the amount they give you as an indicator as to how close you are to another civ.

Honestly I disagree on the quoted parts.

I feel its more optimal to go three base at the beginning instead of two, this way you can build all your horsemen and save your money for buying CS.

With 4 movement you can normally position your horses so they can attack in 1 turn and not be right up against the AIs borders, this will prevent them from asking you about building up on their borders. If you LIE to the ai then there is 0 chance of keeping peace with the other AIs on your continent and can lead you into fighting them all at once, instead of one at a time.

Also, do not save your money to buy horsemen, there is literally no point. You can take over the whole continent most of the time with 4-6 horsemen so why do you need to buy them? Just build your initial ones of your three bases and then use that money to buy a maritime CS once you start puppeting. This will allow you to grow faster and use more specialists in any science buildings you build.

 

[stormerne]

I feel its more optimal to go three base at the beginning instead of two, this way you can build all your horsemen and save your money for buying CS.

How will buying a CS help you? Won't the game be over before they're of any use?

With 4 movement you can normally position your horses so they can attack in 1 turn and not be right up against the AIs borders, this will prevent them from asking you about building up on their borders.

You don't have to be on the border itself for the AI to notice. Therefore there's no advantage from hanging back.

If you LIE to the ai then there is 0 chance of keeping peace with the other AIs on your continent and can lead you into fighting them all at once, instead of one at a time.

I've never ever found this to be a problem. In practice, all that happens is that either (a) they're cynical about your reply, or (b) they don't bother to ask because they know what's coming. If you're fast, they usually haven't had time to sort out inter-civ alliance or defensive pacts.

Also, do not save your money to buy horsemen, there is literally no point. You can take over the whole continent most of the time with 4-6 horsemen so why do you need to buy them? Just build your initial ones of your three bases and then use that money to buy a maritime CS once you start puppeting. This will allow you to grow faster and use more specialists in any science buildings you build.

You save your money and buy one or two because you'll save production time that way. For example, if you have two cities and you want three horsemen, you build two and buy the third simultaneously. That could be ten turns in which to get your first attacks in before the defending cities grow stronger. Time is of the essence. It's a horseman rush, not a horseman dawdle.

 

[milk steak]

Here's my rush strat:

1. Settle in place
1a. Build Scout
1b. Research straight to HBR.
1c. Scout around with Warrior

2. Build Worker
2a. If/when your scout/warrior finds a city state, steal a worker and declare peace in the same turn.

3. Build Settler

4. Plant Settler on top of the nearest Horse resource (saves 6 turns since you don't have to build a pasture.
4a. HBR should be nearly done. Tech Mining afterward (if you have hills; if not, tech whatever).

5. As soon as HBR is complete, you should have Horsemen unlocked. You will be able to produce Horseman as quickly as you can tech to HBR.
5a. At 420 gold, purchase a Horseman. You should be able to field around 2-3 within 10-15 turns of teching to HBR (2 built, 1 purchased).

Edit- If you meet AI and can sell luxury resources or open borders, you can easily buy a settler/horseman/worker instead of slow building.

 

[stormerne]

4. Plant Settler on top of the nearest Horse resource (saves 6 turns since you don't have to build a pasture.

I pretty much agree. It's a toss-up sometimes between settling the second city on top of the horse and whether between the horses and a luxury resource within two tiles. Depends whether you think you'll need the extra happiness, and that depends on the number of opposing civs and the difficulty level.

 

[Snapp]

How will buying a CS help you? Won't the game be over before they're of any use?


You don't have to be on the border itself for the AI to notice. Therefore there's no advantage from hanging back.


I've never ever found this to be a problem. In practice, all that happens is that either (a) they're cynical about your reply, or (b) they don't bother to ask because they know what's coming. If you're fast, they usually haven't had time to sort out inter-civ alliance or defensive pacts.



You save your money and buy one or two because you'll save production time that way. For example, if you have two cities and you want three horsemen, you build two and buy the third simultaneously. That could be ten turns in which to get your first attacks in before the defending cities grow stronger. Time is of the essence. It's a horseman rush, not a horseman dawdle.

If your not playing Pangeae then you will need to do something other than horsemen in the end, so having a solid Civ at that point is a definate plus. Hence why buying a CS is a good thing.

The amount of research you can get from a maritime CS is large, not only from growth but also from the ability to man libraries with scientists. I also find that getting to chivalry quickly can help finish off the last couple of civs if your on hard difficulty or pangeae map.

Yes buying horsemen and can save you about 10 turns, but I don't think delaying those 10 turns hurts you at all, and purchasing a CS later on will help you a lot more than saving those 10 turns would have.

 

[stormerne]

If your not playing Pangeae then you will need to do something other than horsemen in the end, so having a solid Civ at that point is a definate plus. Hence why buying a CS is a good thing.

The amount of research you can get from a maritime CS is large, not only from growth but also from the ability to man libraries with scientists. I also find that getting to chivalry quickly can help finish off the last couple of civs if your on hard difficulty or pangeae map.

Yes buying horsemen and can save you about 10 turns, but I don't think delaying those 10 turns hurts you at all, and purchasing a CS later on will help you a lot more than saving those 10 turns would have.

Ah I see. Well sure if you're playing a more relaxed game like that, city states are huge and I'm their biggest fan. They can feed your entire empire and they can bolster your research and culture. But in that case the horseman rush may neither be the optimum strategy nor the most enjoyable one! And I think the OP was doing it for fun.

I've done horseman "rushes" mid-game, for example to get rid of an annoying neighbor on a continent when I was going for a cultural victory or a diplomatic one. But that's not the definition of rush as I see. It's just an effective attack that used horsemen.

I am really only thinking of the quickest possible domination victories where you've already seen the winner's screen somewhere between turn 60 and 80 at any difficulty level for duel, or 100-140 for standard. That is probably necessarily Pangaea. Anything else and I don't feel as though I'd be doing a true horseman rush at all. That's what my outlined strategy was trying to achieve because that's what I thought the OP wanted.

 

[RedRover57]

It depends on the map and difficulty. On Emperor or less and Pangaea it probably doesn't matter too much what you do as long as you race to horses, make 3 quick and start taking out neighbors while making more horses (and some archers or siege to help them against spears later). On Immortal or Diety you will need to worry about a longer game (i.e., more than 150 turns), and ICS strategy plus maritime CS allies works well combined with early conquering. I never found early warriors to be useful since they would just drag behind the horses anyway. Better to make 2 scouts early to uncover the map quicker, or make more workers early to get your ICS going (depending on how many you can steal early).

 

[Snapp]

Ah I see. Well sure if you're playing a more relaxed game like that, city states are huge and I'm their biggest fan. They can feed your entire empire and they can bolster your research and culture. But in that case the horseman rush may neither be the optimum strategy nor the most enjoyable one! And I think the OP was doing it for fun.

I've done horseman "rushes" mid-game, for example to get rid of an annoying neighbor on a continent when I was going for a cultural victory or a diplomatic one. But that's not the definition of rush as I see. It's just an effective attack that used horsemen.

I am really only thinking of the quickest possible domination victories where you've already seen the winner's screen somewhere between turn 60 and 80 at any difficulty level for duel, or 100-140 for standard. That is probably necessarily Pangaea. Anything else and I don't feel as though I'd be doing a true horseman rush at all. That's what my outlined strategy was trying to achieve because that's what I thought the OP wanted.

The op didnt mention any game settings, so I don't know why you would assume a duel, duel vs the AI is kind of pointless no? Guaranteed easy win imo.

But yea I would agree, duel on pangeae no point in a CS.

I usually play standard everything on continents or pangeae.

 

[stormerne]

The op didnt mention any game settings, so I don't know why you would assume a duel, duel vs the AI is kind of pointless no? Guaranteed easy win imo

Guaranteed win for sure. I'm not sure I was assuming the OP meant duel; I was just using it as a example for the shortest game. With more civs, for example standard, the diplo rep hit by consistently lying has only ever resulted for me in name calling, never anything that slowed me down. But I have to say that when you get to taking out your seventh civ with horsemen on standard, the gloss of fun has usually worn off by then and tedium has set in! I'd settle for fewer, but that's just me.

 

[Snapp]

Guaranteed win for sure. I'm not sure I was assuming the OP meant duel; I was just using it as a example for the shortest game. With more civs, for example standard, the diplo rep hit by consistently lying has only ever resulted for me in name calling, never anything that slowed me down. But I have to say that when you get to taking out your seventh civ with horsemen on standard, the gloss of fun has usually worn off by then and tedium has set in! I'd settle for fewer, but that's just me.

Agreed horsemen conquest on pangeae gets tedious.

I prefer continents, then you can conquest your continent and switch up for a industrial/modern war on the other continent, or just sit back and science/culture ftw.

 

[Zenstrive]

I tend to go for trapping first than beelining horseback riding
build order: warrior-warrior-workers-settler (buy if can). You get three warriors moving around clearing maps, workers for making trading posts around your capital, to generate some money. Second city built on top or near horses.

It is strange that I have never got horses two tiles away from my capital. Always on a location where I'd need to make the 2nd city. The closes horse tile even only got 2 horses only.......

 

[Vordeo]

Guaranteed win for sure. I'm not sure I was assuming the OP meant duel; I was just using it as a example for the shortest game. With more civs, for example standard, the diplo rep hit by consistently lying has only ever resulted for me in name calling, never anything that slowed me down. But I have to say that when you get to taking out your seventh civ with horsemen on standard, the gloss of fun has usually worn off by then and tedium has set in! I'd settle for fewer, but that's just me.

I wasn't, but it's all good. Basically I just wanted a discussion on how to get the horse rush out as soon as possible.

 

[Tabarnak]

For multiplayer i usually try to get 4 horsemen to approx. turn 40.

2 paths come in mind : 1st one is to take honor path and build a second city. Build one in newest city and build 2 more in capital. You should be able to finish 2nd and 3rd at same time and buy the 4th one also if you have enough cash. The problem here is you have to catch a culture ruin because the 2nd policy wont come in time by turn 40, unless you are France.

2nd path : Take 50% discount for settler. Build 2 cities. Build 1 horseman in each of new cities. Build 2of them in capital for a total of 4. No bonus but cash saved and 3 production cities. Better for long term run. If you cant take a city, kill every ennemy units and wait for more from your 3 initial cities. Pick honor later, but with more units available for the next war.

Last game i played i took 2nd path : had 3 cities, 2 workers, 4 horsemen, 2 warriors and a scout by turn 40, before the assault.

If i have only 2 horses i dont horserush. I prefer 4 or more.

 

[E66man]

Last game i played i took 2nd path : had 3 cities, 2 workers, 4 horsemen, 2 warriors and a scout by turn 40, before the assault.

If i have only 2 horses i dont horserush. I prefer 4 or more.

And what happened when you attacked? I assume you only ended up facing a Warrior or two...

 

[biohazard72]

Mine is a bit different than others. Scout-worker-settler-settler in capital, build a settler or two in the second city asap after it grows. Expand to 5 cities, first build in 3rd through 5th is a 20 turn horse working a hill, growing to size 2 on maritime food. Build horsemen after settlers in capital and second city. I usually stop at 6 horsemen built (2 in capital, one in every other city). I declare war usually at the time the third is built. Oh and a city is usually settled on horses, and a cs worker stolen. I ICS after the rush is launched.

Deity btw. Usually good for a civ kill plus a later knight/treb army, unless your enemy beelines civil service.