Optimal naval stack?

[JoBlow]

For a defensive style naval stack consisting of only Battleships, Destroyers and Attack Subs, what would be the optimal numbers of each and which style of unit should have the healing promotions (i.e. which unit is likely to get attacked last) when going up against an offensive stack of Battleships, Destroyers and Carriers?

All advice would be much appreciated. I know "it all depends", I'm just looking for a general strategy to build my defensive naval stacks. I have a coastal city with Red Cross, West Point and a drydock so my ships can get three promotions on top of the initial healing one that comes from the Red Cross, if that helps. I have other cities that can pump out a navy with two promotions each.

Also, this is related to a MP game, not against the AI. The only real way they can get at me is with a navy to land troops and I want to be able to defend against that with a decent navy of my own.

Thanks.

 

[Seraiel]

I don't know, as I don't play Civ in MP, but for the healing promotion I can give you the advice, to simply take a weak unit (such as a normal sub or a transport) for that, as it will always be attacked last.

 

[2metraninja]

Knowledge about your enemy powers, stack composition and location is what will give you the most advantage in a MP naval battle. Use spies and far sentry net.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Saw this this morning, but my games rarely go past Cannon, so I can't say for certain. But no one else has jumped on this, so here's my guess.

Looking at the units, battleships are power 40 and the others are power 30. There's no rock paper scissor deal with water, so I'd just have a bunch of battleships plus one sub for vision on other subs. Give the sub the healing upgrade, since you don't want it fighting anyway. And I think a carrier with airplanes on intercept will do better than destroyers at protecting against air.

 

[s.bernbaum]

As Rhino says, the carriers with fighters are better air protection than destroyers. However, I would include two to four destroyers, if you can't build the carriers and planes or they are not available when needed. Even with the carriers I would include those destroyers because you may have an opportunity to detach a couple temporarily to hit a ship or two that leave the enemy stack and still be able to return the destroyers to your main stack, due to their superior movement. If you have missiles, then include from two to four subs, loaded with missiles. The missiles are great for softening up the enemy stack before your ships engage it.

As for promotions, most of my battleships would get the combat promos but one or two, depending on fleet size, would get the collateral damage promos and get used like siege in field army land battles. One or two destroyers get sentry and medic promos only, so they are least likely to get attacked. Destroyers otherwise all get combat promos. Subs and carriers get movement promos, so they don't slow down the fleet. Since they are not intended to be engaged in ship to ship combat and you don't want to lose the planes and missiles if the ship is attacked, they don't get the combat promos so they will be low priority defenders. If you have enough promos available for the subs and carriers after they have their movement promos, they can get the sentry and medic promos as well and you can leave out the destroyers with those promos. Of course, all ships built in the Red Cross city will have the bonus medic promotion, so you need not specialize any ships for medic in that case.

I rather like the modern era for wars and the naval game, so my games often include fleets composed like this. However, one caveat is that I play SP and have never played MP.

 

[coanda]

Here's one take on it:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/modernnaval.php

I don't know if I agree with his advice - I think it advocates overspending on naval units.

 

[GGracchus]

It depends, my personal favorite composition is a bunch of submarines with tac nukes loaded on and some transports with marines/paratroopers to take their cities

Excluding nukes, I would like some of carriers w/jet fighters or fighters, tons of battleships/missile cruisers with guided missiles for the the cruisers, and a few destroyers.

 

[GA econ FTW]

If your opponent is human: ....if your opponent is human (and good), odds are you won't want to stack your modern navy (on defense). you mentioned destroyers, battleships and subs. A good human opponent will amphibiously invade your cities if you "hide" your ships in there and wipe them out without a fight....other good human opponents will tac nuke your stacks.
so, if you actually have a fairly big kickass circa 1940's navy, versus human, I recommend actually what bombardment attempted to make players do...spread your navy out. and subs, lots of subs. cheaper, and forces the human player to find them to wipe them out. Also, it would be a hassle for the human player to knock them out one by one to drive toward your coast. Also, subs are good scouts for you. oh, and another thing...if it turns out all is lost, and you are looking at ending up in tundra hell as a pseudo vassal....subs can hide under ocean ice.....at least it's a spite for the AI who tried to get you...and maybe those 5 or 6 subs you can save that way can get their vengeance next war....

If the enemy is AI....the enemy has gotten much better at amphibious assaults, but if your coastal cities are garrisonned with confidence, on defense, I'm a big fan of building either a fort near a hidden lake and sequestering in the lake, or hiding in the city. Nothing beats having your subs and destroyers dart out, survive an attack, and come back to the city disallowing the AI to counterattack via convential naval warfare. Of course, you haven't mentioned nukes. the only real defense against nukes is SDI in this game. (again, spreading your units out is another semi-feasible defense.

I'm a big fan of gracchus' comment about carriers. Carriers and air support on a stack is CRUCIAL in naval combat....but since you did say defense, it is possible to base your fighters in a nearby city or fort and run air defense missions on assets fairly close to your coast. But if you lack air power, well, your original post said only subs, destroyers and Battlewagons....if that's all I had to work with and all I wanted was a defensive stance (and didn't have nukes) I'd want a ratio of 50% subs (all with tactics, maybe a few scouts with sentry), 30% destroyers, 20% battlewagons. if you are on defense, your defense objective is to SINK invading transports, or make that assault task force PAY for succeffully dropping troops on a beachhead. You will expect to lose a lot of your defensive navy. The battlewagons would be promoted up the barrage promo ladder, the destroyers maybe up the combat ladder (or tactics/withdraw), subs definitely up the withdraw/tactics as mentioned....enemy stack comes, your battlecans will go down to their combat promoted ones, but your BB screen acts just like suicide catapults....from experience as to what cats do on land, if your destroyers are now in the 80% pick-off rate, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead with your tin cans.....if still not there, then let 'em have it with the subs....knowing how the AI deals with me, a two-promoted withdraw sub (30% withdraw chance?) typically withdraws a LOT and do nasty damage (most likely returning to a safe city or fort)....then let 'em have it with the tin cans.

from my experience, if you are on defense, and your power rating didn't dissuade the AI from calling off a planned war, the AI WILL declare, and surprise drop....not much you can do about it (except on earth maps in the pacific, your subs SHOULD see china or japan coming at least 1 turn before with their death stack...odds are your death stack couldn't reach them to STOP them from landing, but you could position for that next turn and then declare on THEM...)

so you most likely will have to deal with a land war....but it is the job of your rear admiral in command of Defense task forces to make sure, by God, their victory was a phyrric one....

 

[mediterreania]

Airpower, cruise missiles and nukes if possible are important in a defensive naval strategy, but most important is airpower. Make sure they can't bombard you, close the distance quickly and engage them close range.

Speed is important, too, to do that. Spare the slower units if you can. Use coastal air power (airplanes garrisoned in forts and cities) if possible. Healing promotions go to the weakest unit; also, try to make it back to your cities to heal inside of them. Both of these tips (airpower and escape) require staying close to shore, so do that.

Also, are there chokepoints? If they're in Europe and have to get to Asia (on an Earth map), or vice versa, try to control (or be on good terms with the owner of) both the Panama Canal and the Suez. (On RFC, that would be Gaza and Panama City I think.) That'll force them to go around the tip of Africa and the tip of South America, where you can ambush them. (If you can't base ships and planes in friendly territory nearby, then put subs with missiles under the Antarctic ice.)