Oracle options and relative value

Yes, but for a long time anything you could get by trading Feudalism you could get by trading CoL/MC. And LBs are nice, but they also cost a lot of hammers so I don't see it as much of a plus except in exceptional situations.

Not claiming it would never be a good option, just seems like it would be extremely rare. It's a pretty long slingshot, which costs in terms of expansion, but doesn't have anything like the benefit of getting early CS.

If you can get it it's almost always the BEST option ;) Screw expansion, if you have double promoted LBs+Catas you won't even need metal and still get all the land you need, just remember that there's simply no direct counter to archers on offensive (well, okay... war elephants, but they're superior to everything in that era, and they're not a direct counter). Don't forget that you also have the option to trade monarchy, and if you can do a fast slingshot to feudalism you can have a superearly vasall. Have i mentioned that Vassalage is also a nice economy tech when you go to war? With LBs in the ~1400 BCs you can also forget about the catas and simply smack up the AI with double promoted LBs... yes, they're pretty expensive early on, but especially with PRO trait you won't need much of them. They have winning odds vs. flatland citydefenders pretty often, can't be encouraged in the field and, most important, are resourceless (!) which means they can be whipped in conquered cities right away.

I don't see too much flaws in offensive LBs, except for the single fact that you HAVE to oracle feudalism (selfteching takes way too long), and that's a gamble on immortal - on deity i wouldn't consider this slingshot, but maybe i'll be proven wrong here some day. You'll need:

a) high commerce right away, preferable 1-2 gold/gems
b) the land, means: high production even without BW because you'll need your beakers elsewhere and in the optimal case food that you won't have to tech for (e.g. you start with agg and have corn)
c) ofc the sorrounding, there's no use in LBs if you'll get overrun by barbs... but on pangea it can be a strong move
d) the right AIs, if there are tons of religious/whonderwhores in game you'll most likely won't be able to hold off the oracle long enough to get feudalism from it. This includes a nearby rushtarget, ofc ... no use in feudalism if there's noone near to fight.

Also, you'll be able to just ignore every warmonger and any kind of threat for a looong time with early double promoted LBs, there's simply nothing before maces show up that'll give LBs a hard time, and you know about the stupidity of the AI when warring ~

I'm not saying that oracling feudalism is any kind of übermove that'll give you essentially the ability to do anything you want, but it can be great in the right circumstances... you shouldn't underestimate it at least ;) Even if you don't chose to go with LBs as your main attackers, you'll have double promoted swords/cats/elephants - that's a HUGE benefit. Paired with the economical advantage out of vasallage, that makes early wars extremely hammerefficient. And then there's still the ability to bribe AIs on each other with feudalism ...

It's hard to pull off, but if you can pull it off it's great. Have done it twice in recent forumgames, which both times resulted in great winning positions. OTOH, if you don't get anything from the oracle you'll be screwed in almost every way, so this is neither a recommended way to use the oracle nor a save way.


@topic: 90% of the time i take alpha, 8%MC and 2% CoL (roughly) ... and sometimes feudalism :D . MC only if i want to build colossus (or for X-bow rushes), it's just not a good tech to trade away imo, so using it as a tradebait is something i want to avoid that early. CoL only if i have a UB there, i usually prefer to let the AI tech CoL first for religious hatred. Usually i get CoL pretty late, after music, currency and monarchy - the times where i need CS are extremely rare that early, courthouses are too expensive that early compared to the return you'll get out of them. There are rare cases where i have a huge capital and therefore civil service comes in handy, but beelining it before currency just takes too long..

For me it's Alphabet, that way you can get a ridicolous amount of techs very early which makes oracle extremely worthwhile.
 
I wouldn't even dream about building the Oracle with out a double commerce start with marble near by. But when I do I usually try and bulb Math first then take Construction and go to town with catapults. Feud is also a very good option, if you are on the ball about losing it just take MC and get it earlier. Early production mods are goooooooood!
 
OTOH, if you don't get anything from the oracle you'll be screwed in almost every way, so this is neither a recommended way to use the oracle nor a save way.

This is pretty much my point. To get Feudalism from Oracle safely you have to pretty much do it with one city, beelining right from the start. This can lead to incredibly early Feudalism, but it also means it will be a pretty long time before you can leverage it offensively because you will be quite low on production.

On balance I'm just not sure it's a favorable investment/risk compared to other kinds of rushes. In particular compared to x-bows, which are the same base as LBs, similarly have no early counter, yet also have a nice bonus against melee. (But to be fair though I've only played around with this once or twice, and would have to do some more testing to say for sure.)
 
The huge difference between X-bows and LBs is the second promotion you'll get from vasallage, and that you won't need iron for LBs, so you'll be able to use LBs regardless of what the map throws at you. And ofc you'll be able to build a second town, there's alot of spare time while teching Monarchy, that second town is somewhat mandatory after all because it'll help with research. And regarding the "safety", well, you can try to snack Feud when you see nothing but warmongers like in those maps Gwaja tends to provide lately. When you beeline towards oracle and recognize that stonehenge isn't build 1800 BC (and neither is GW) on immortal, you stand a good chance to get something really worthy out of the oracle... construction, feudalism... with the right set of AIs, you can oracle alot of things, i've seen oracle been built 500 BC and later on immortal 8[ That's a time where you could try to slingshot Civil Service...
 
If you already researched monarchy and fuedalism is available go for it imo. Metal casting is nice, but not nearly as expensive to research.

And while many consider serfdom a garbage civic, I actually really love it if I get it early when none of my land is developed. Getting fuedalism that early can boost your economy.
 
If you already researched monarchy and fuedalism is available go for it imo.

This is a bit like saying "well if you've already researched CoL and Math, go ahead and take Civil Service." On Immortal+ you won't get such expensive techs from Oracle, much less safely, unless you make a conscious effort to beeline it from the start.
 
And lately I saw Oracle->Constr with Ivory from Riflin' which is very good too.

Woohoo! famous for 15 seconds...:woohoo:

I'm a bit surprised, actually. i would have thought construction was a pretty standard option.

I haven't done feudalism too often, but the early vassalism civic is pretty good. Obviously it doesn't hold a candle to beauracracy, but in addition to the extra promotion, which is great that early, you also save on support costs. whether its better than the alternatives is entirely moot, but for me its perhaps the fact that its just a bit different thats part of the attraction. (I'm also rather fascinated with the idea of combining this with the m/c - machinery gs bulbing plan with Justinian. aiming for early guilds. not sure its worth it, but it could be fun.)
 
I'm not a guy who builds the Oracle often at all because I'm not fond of the tech diversion it entails. You make a lot of sacrifices (and take some risks) to go down that path, all in return for a gamble on something and maybe ending up completely empty handed. It depends, if you start with Mysticism and Stonehenge doesn't go very early then it can be worth it.

Occasionally it can be awesome, though. If I was going to do something fancy with the Oracle because I have a crazy double gems or double gold start, I'd much prefer Civil Service to Feudalism. I don't see how Longbows are significanly better than Swordsmen as offensive units...in fact, they're worse. :p

The Civil Service gambit can be done at levels as high as Immortal. Whether it is really worth is is questionable. I have tried it more than once on Immortal and generally what you gain from having a Bureau cap early is balanced by what you lose in terms of early expansion. You can't do this and expand at the same time, there's a big sacrifice to be made. It also requires insane commerce, probably being Philosophical or at least Creative to get your Mathematics bulb in time, and some good luck.

Of the conventional choices, all of them can be pretty solid. Alpha can backfill all your early techs. Is that better than just playing the normal safe way and doing the same thing with Aesthetics a little later? Hard to say.

CoL is a key tech that you need for Civil Service, it unlocks Philosophy which can be very useful, as can the courthouses, caste system, and the religion, all depending on circumstances. CoL does a lot.

Metal Casting is great for industrial leaders, allows the forge->engineer->Pyramids gambit (best if you're philosophical but not necessarily a requisite) and of course the Colossus (something I almost never build as I'm not much of a fan of archipelago maps, but I've seen this wonder exploited for astonishing results), and MC is also a really nice trading chip that you can dine off for the better part of the classical era, trade opportunities permitting.

For me, Monarchy is a little meh. The AIs are crazy for it anyway, which devalues it as a tech and makes it relatively easy to trade for.
 
Lately I've been getting the Oracle not because I'm really pushing for it but because it goes so late and I can win it with out a lot of effort. The tech is on the path to Monarchy which takes forever if you don't self research.

My typical choices are:

Metal Casting (672 beakers)
Code of Laws (522 beakers)
Currency (598 beakers)

Generally by the time the wonder is built I've researched Monarchy already so I didn't include it in the list. I rarely see Currency as an option because Alphabet isn't in before The Oracle is completed.


This leaves Metal Casting vs Code of Laws. I typically avoid state religion in the early game and don't find myself building the Colossus often. This reduces the choice really to Forges (production bonus) vs Delaying AI expansion by denying them Courthouses for a few turn.
If I'm desperate for Courthouses I've probably not spent the 150 hammers on a Wonder. TMIT commented in a LetsPlay that it takes almost 75 turns for a Riverside Cottage tile to break even with Colossus coast. While this is impressive, I have not developed the habits that seem to capitalize on this fact.

I'm too chicken to try and delay the build until a juicier tech is available and even if i was more daring I don't feel like my tech choices in this phase of the game are strong enough to warrant the gamble.


So the questions:
1) Say the chosen tech is roughly 500 beakers. How is this hammer:beaker exchange valued by Emperor + players? Do you find yourself pushing for the Oracle often?

2) Comparing Code of Laws to Metal Casting, I'm paying roughly 150 beakers of research to possibly delay and inconvenience the AI for some unknown time. Seems like a good deal to me but I'd like to hear from others. When do you take Metal Casting over Code of Laws and why?

3) Is the value of CoL as trade bait greater than the value of economically inconveniencing the AI?

Manticore


in my expirience on the higher difficulty levels i "always" in every game get the oracle by chopping forsts and take codes of law.from that one tech i get in trade alphabet,monarchy,iron working,animal husbandry,monothesim,meditation,sailing,fishing.and and and.......
 
One tech that have not been discussed yet I have picked a few times is Theology. What's it's relative merits (beyond the mental image of the Oracle of Delphi ranting about a stable in Bethlehem)?

If you are willing to commit to a religion at this early stage you can have Theocracy-boosted troops really early.
You get one of the middle religions (for what it's worth).
You get first dibs on the Apostolic Palace.
 
Getting the AP is the main reason for taking Theo. I'm not conviced that it's very good though, because if you build the Oracle (and take some other tech) you can use it to give you a Great Prophet and then bulb Theology instead, if you really want it.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned is Horseback Riding. It's usually available and might be worth doing, although it seems a bit inconsistent with the concept of a HA rush to be going off on a tech tangent to pursue the Oracle.
 
I don't see how Longbows are significanly better than Swordsmen as offensive units...in fact, they're worse. :p

Even if i might repeat myself for the third time, they're resourceless, profit from the PRO trait and are unchallenged in the open field in that time, plus are double promoted through vassallage. Yeah, you might aswell go for swordmen/axemen with double promotions then, but you'll need the resource aswell ofc ;) vs. the most common defenders, archers, they're just as strong as x-bows (or maybe even a littler stronger, remember the 2nd promotion...), and no one would argue about a x-bow rush, right? And once again, resourceless, double promotion.... try it yourself, the immortal game Gwaja set up with saladin lately is perfect because the oracle falls pretty late.

Have to agree with you on the civil service slingshot though, but then again this might be valuable in isolation. With feud otoh you'll break out of almost every situation with military, therefore expansion isn't important at all. You won't even need IND or marble or even chops, you have more than enough time to build the oracle while teching monarchy... it's only important that you can actually finish the wonder and noone does before you ;)
 
Something else that hasn't been mentioned is Horseback Riding. It's usually available and might be worth doing, although it seems a bit inconsistent with the concept of a HA rush to be going off on a tech tangent to pursue the Oracle.
Well, if you happen to play Saladin and start with marble then it works nicely. Pulled that on one of Gwaja's Immortal maps. Hordes of HA morphing into upgraded hordes = 100K+ win.
 
Back when I started with civ4, my noob leader of choice was Brennus. I had quite a few games where I'd oracle Feudalism for guerrillaIII longbows with my amazing duns.
Luckily I grew out of it.
 
Oracling Feudalism can be nice in that it is a tech that leads to Civil Service. Longbowmen are also cheaper than Crossbowmen.

Further, you don't have to connect your sources of Copper or Iron and can still spam Warriors for Military Police and for their use with the Hereditary Rule Civic--a Civic that you just happened to pick up in your beeline to Feudalism.
 
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