Orbis - the original thread

[arkham4269]

Got an interesting sort of error. I saved my game as Mechanos and thought before I shut the game off I'd check to see who I'd get if I let some of my colonies become vassals. I'm expecting to actually do this with the Calabim I'm currently whaling on but thought it would be interesting to see how far my vassals influence would go since they are on an island right off my Civ.

I got a "Random Neutral Leader" with a really neat Romanic leader pic, but that was his name! Hello Mrs. Neutral Leader! Oh I've see you've brought little Random as well!"

 

[Seon]

I really love this modmod but I have a problem, any city I take, even if it is size 6, gets automatically raized. This is annoying as I cannot take barbarian city which is actually in a good spot. As if that is not enough, I have to wait until the ruins turns into spawning ground of Arawn's lovers (ghosts), and guarded by a huge sentient plant so that it can be explored (playing Mechanos so no sanctify spells for me) and for some reason my half wit units did not know how to until then, clear away the ruin. I am now currently trying to see if Play Now will clear away the problem but that will take time, and I do not want to wait until late game to discover that every city I take is, in fact raized. (This also caused a problem in which Hyborem grew insanely powerful from all the souls of evil barbs I killed)

 

[Ahwaric]

Ok, that does it. As people seem to not read the installation instructions and just refer to them (or not) if they have problems, custom options will not be saved from the next patch on.
There are too many problems with "I have always open borders", "Cities are always razed" etc. Yes, using play now option just once after changing the mod played would prevent all this probelms.
I do not want to cause more trouble than it is worth, so Orbis will force its options.
If you want your options saved, you will have to edit your Orbis.ini file.

@VIMgQ+I2
Sorry for the delay - I did not think that anyone really uses my source files , and there were no changes apart from updating to the lates FfH version. I will keep them up to date now.

@Gilg
Yeah, Kael increased Nightwatch size with one of the recent patches. After I actually seen the change, I changed it back. It will come with the next patch.
Griffins on the other hand should be big
All ships got increased size (they were small compared to the size of land units), if you think some are too big, let me know.
You can expect some imports from FF as soon as I get my hands on the code. Agnostic inquisition is a must

@xienwolf
First of all, thanks for help. Second, taking into account leaders preferences in GP research is a great idea
Anyway, I decided to add another flavour to separate magic from science. So far it seems to be working

@arkham4269 & Wauthan
I will look into colony split choices. I guess the same will happen when Mazatl do the split. I have to link them to other civs or just add minor leader.
Mechanos definetly need a way to counter fear/enraged. I think of adding "elite" promotion, that will make unit permanently immune to such effects, plus add some minor combat bonuses (first strikes?). It will be added via mechanos-only spell, castable only in a city with citadel (or training yard?). Other requirement is military strategy tech, and I think that unit should be at least level 4 or even 6 to be able to cast it. Casting will use some gold (50? 70?) and take a few turns (4? 5?)
I quite like national wonders, buildable by great generals, that can boost special unit combats (i.e. provide special promotions) . If you have any specific ideas, please post them
I am worried by the "Speaking of which, I've only played Mechanos to a point where the game keeps crashing". Please, give me some specs or post a save. I will try to fix what I can.
Castles are not that bad if you are running feudal contract civic, so some civs quite like them, especially near dangerous borders. I may need to improve the "nomad" improvements a bit to make them more worthwhile. same applies to windmills and other late-game improvements by the way.

What do you mean by "look into animals"? If water based animal totems, then the answer is not yet, and post your proposals. If something else, please explain.
And do not worry for too-many features, my work is one of the limiting factors now And I can always remove something if it is not that great.

 

[Wauthan]

"Look into animals" i.e. many pages ago you mentioned that the spawn rate for ocean animals, the serpent and the turtle, might be a little high (or units were a bit too strong).

Great General Buildings:

The Twelve Iron Gates - Creates an impassable wall, similar to the Elohim special, along the city cultural border. The wall has two one tile gaps in it, randomly placed. Requires earth mana.

The Wild Haven - Each "animal created building" in the city provides a chance that a unit built or upgraded here will get an animal totem. Good synergy with The Grand Menagerie wonder. Requires nature mana.

Underdark Tunnel Network - Units within four tiles of the city receive "tunnel fighter" promotion. Grants 50% retreat, even when inside the city tile. City can not be blockaded.

Academy of Ever Changing Paths - Sacrifice unit, and gold, to get random other unit with the same promotions. Requires chaos mana.

The Mountain Thrower - Creates immobile hero catapult unit with 7 tile range. Units in city can cast "Toss Me" spell. Tossed units can airdrop 7 tiles away but take heavy damage.

Wrath of Steel - Creates hero Battering Ram. Huge defensive strength, can not attack. Can carry five units. Does immense damage to city defenses. Basically a mobile attack fortress.

Warriors Rest - Sacrifice unit to give its xp to another unit in the city. Requires spirit mana.

 

[xaosseed]

Great General Buildings:
The Twelve Iron Gates...
The Wild Haven ... Menagerie wonder. Requires nature mana.
Underdark Tunnel Network...
Academy of Ever Changing Paths...
The Mountain Thrower...
Wrath of Steel...
Warriors Rest...

I like the ideas behind Wild Haven, Academy of Everchanging Paths and Warriors Rest a lot, especially Wild Haven.

 

[arkham4269]

Ok, that does it. As people seem to not read the installation instructions and just refer to them (or not) if they have problems, custom options will not be saved from the next patch on.

Could you post again your 'rules' and where to find them. I often feel bad citing errors because it often takes a long time to see if someone has mentioned them before as error threads get longer. For example, I've noticed that cottages seem to act like Forts in that they can be used as portage between land masses. Not sure if that is a known bug or just something you've decided you want. Again, I'm all for reading the instructions if I know where they are. I even like to follow them!

All ships got increased size (they were small compared to the size of land units), if you think some are too big, let me know.

I don't mind them so much in the more 'modern' ships but I think the Trireme seems a lot larger than it should be and the cog as well. Beyond that, it just took some getting use to.

You can expect some imports from FF as soon as I get my hands on the code. Agnostic inquisition is a must

Yay agnostic inquisitors! Secondly, when you mean FF, are you talking mostly units or Civ's like the evil lizards?

@arkham4269 & Wauthan: I will look into colony split choices. I guess the same will happen when Mazatl do the split. I have to link them to other civs or just add minor leader.

Hey even though my 'Lord Random Neutral Leader' didn't have a name, I like the concept of a random minor leader relevant to your Civ. I mean I never liked the concept of being Elohim and creating a colony and getting Calabim for example. So I like your way. I seem to recall on another thread (Dural thread?) that Xienwolf (I think it was him) responded to a suggestion I had made that they were indeed looking at a way to perhaps have a pop-up so you could choose your colony Civ. Barring that, minor Civ leader of the same alignment seems okay by me!

It will be added via mechanos-only spell, castable only in a city with citadel (or training yard?). Other requirement is military strategy tech, and I think that unit should be at least level 4 or even 6 to be able to cast it. Casting will use some gold (50? 70?) and take a few turns (4? 5?)

I think needing the military strategy tech is easy enough to get early enough to be useful for warding off problems like Stephanos. Plus I think it will also force some players (like me) to not neglect their military. I tend to wait far to long to start working on my military and thus miss opportunities to strike some Civs before they get their own army/navy ready. So by needing a higher level combat/recon unit to do the training at a training yard, you would need to build those warriors and use them, even though a lot of them are going to get killed trying to get tough enough.

I quite like national wonders, buildable by great generals, that can boost special unit combats (i.e. provide special promotions) . If you have any specific ideas, please post them

The only general idea I can think of is each Civ tends to have a set of units that they need better versions of. The Luann need better ships, the Hippus better cavalry and the like. So perhaps when given the option with a Great Commander, that instead of just being able to build a Command Post that gives pluses to all military units built, that you have an option of building a Super shipyard, stable, siege workshop, archery field or training yard. Then units of only that type will get a better bonus. You can still get your Command Post by building the Heroic Epic.

I am worried by the "Speaking of which, I've only played Mechanos to a point where the game keeps crashing". Please, give me some specs or post a save. I will try to fix what I can.

Oh I have a 2005 Win-XP Laptop with the 15" screen and full keyboard. I really need to have it totally wiped and reloaded since who knows how many competing programs I have on it. Plus it's an Afghan vet like me. Mostly the errors I get are late in the game the game just conks out. Sometimes I get a error message, sometimes I get told my graphics can't handle it, sometimes it just locks up. So I can never play w/more than 6 Civs or so and even a standard map in the late game is too much. I lust after some of these system people must have to be playing on a Huge map w/18 Civs. Must be nice. It's not just your mod; it happens pretty much with every mod I play. I'll see about uploading my last turns from my 1st Mechanos game.

Castles are not that bad if you are running feudal contract civic, so some civs quite like them, especially near dangerous borders. I may need to improve the "nomad" improvements a bit to make them more worthwhile. same applies to windmills and other late-game improvements by the way.

I didn't have an issue with the castles, just wondering if I was missing something. I do remember mentioning on the base FfH & FF bug threads that I felt the AI was a bit ******** when it came to building improvements like they'd build forts on mana nodes and then never go back and improve them after they got adepts. I was told that this problem was being looked at. I often notice that I have to be careful with automated workers because they'll often do the same sort of counter-productive thing.

And do not worry for too-many features, my work is one of the limiting factors now And I can always remove something if it is not that great.

I'm not ever going to complain about features! I loved it when the custom game option of "All unique features" was implemented!

 

[arkham4269]

The Mountain Thrower - Creates immobile hero catapult unit with 7 tile range. Units in city can cast "Toss Me" spell. Tossed units can airdrop 7 tiles away but take heavy damage.

Perhaps a wonder that is sort of like the old Alpha Centauri Space Elevator that could drop units anywhere (obviously within a certain range of your civ border or cities) I'm thinking either something that requires nature mana (and perhaps air as well) that represents giant trees that have those types of seeds that float on the wind. So the unit gets on and floats away. Perhaps in good old fashion Starship Trooper fashion, there is a 1 hex random drift from the target square.

Then you might have "Walls of Bambur" which would require earth and/or fire
(and maybe even iron) and would represent cities walls that have all those Notre Dame gargoyles that spit molten lead on the attackers.

Also, something I'd like to see is I've always wanted to have that old Mongol traveling city unit from the Genghis Khan Warlord scenario brought back. I'd like a minor Nomad civ to have it, but perhaps it could also be used as a Great Building and represent something like "Fight For Your Country" traveling recruiting station. You could use it to hire mercenaries as well as pay gold to create units depending on which terrain you were on.

 

[Ahwaric]

Could you post again your 'rules' and where to find them. I often feel bad citing errors because it often takes a long time to see if someone has mentioned them before as error threads get longer. [...] Again, I'm all for reading the instructions if I know where they are. I even like to follow them!

I think I have sounded more harsh than I intended. Also, I do not mind bug reports, it is just THIS specific type of bugs that gets boring. These are caused by game options carried from other mods (i.e. FF). This is well documented and described in installation instructions in the first post.
I know that the documentation is, well, 'lacking'. Last pdf documentation was for 0.14 and not many civilopedia pages have any info...

From FF, I carry over mostly mechanics changes - I really like inquisition for agnostic civs (it was really needed). Also, I think that splitting barbarians into 3 civs is a great idea. It was discussed for a long time...
As the civs go, I do not want to port all of them. I want the civs to be really unique, and I am not sure if 2 lizard civs is not too much.
I love Scions of Patria and plan to ask Traqueline if he would mind if thay populate this mod too. But there is so little time and so much to do, so this import is scheduled for 'later'.
Colony leaders from the same civ is a recent FfH addition, so you should praise Kael for that. I just caused trouble - new civs do not have extra leaders.

The Luann need better ships, the Hippus better cavalry and the like. So perhaps when given the option with a Great Commander, that instead of just being able to build a Command Post that gives pluses to all military units built, that you have an option of building a Super shipyard, stable

I guess you did not play against hippus recently. Or archipelago against Lanun. Trust me, they do not need another bonus to their special unit lines...
But I like the idea of Military Academy kind building, that can provide special promotions. I quite like ideas for Wild haven (it will come with the next patch, I hope soon after Kael posts his) and Academy of Everchanging Paths. But I thought of something more connected to 'training', i.e. you decide to specialize in infantry, so you sacrifice a great general (or even a few) to get nice training bonuses to this particular line. Or even make that more specific - you can focus on polearm line (pikeman and maybe spartatoi). Just like swiss were famous for their exceptional polearm infantry, english for longbowman or my country for hussars.
You would still have to use different types of units (well, I hope so as I tried to enforce it) and will have great units from the kind of troops your civ is good at (including unique units), but also could fine-tune it to your taste. In short words - more customizing options for the player.

Dwarf-thrower is a nice idea, but not exactly what I thought of. But I do not say no to it...

Mongol-style camps was suggested to doviello, and I think it would fit Hippus as well. Balancing it may be hard, but some day... who knows

 

[Seon]

I apologize for that, it was my bad. The thing was that I did not expect any options to be carried over since the only mod I ever played in this last 6 month was orbis (no FFH, no FF), and this did not happen at patch B, which I downloaded the exact same way (delete Orbis, download FFH patch, Download Orbis, download new orbis patch).

Then again, I just remembered that I was slightly bemused in that game as a Mechanos cog went straight through my cultural borders and I did not remember signing any open borders treaties with them, I guess I should have remembered this sooner. Again, sorry.

 

[sputnik323]

I had an idea to spawn great commanders. Ive never seen great commanders in the game except for a result from exploring lairs. So I'm not sure how they are created. The idea is that when a unit wins a battle with 30% chance or less of victory there is a 10% chance that they will gain the great commander promotion. The commander can then be split and given to the unit of choice or stay with that unit just as it is now.

Like the new changes! Thanks for your hard work!!!

Just read your post about FF... since FFH2 is basically 'done' any new changes to the game are going to be through modmods... eventually (in the future not now) it may work more practically to base orbi off of FF as a modmodmod than try to port pieces - especially since Fire revolution will be a part of FF now. Or the FF team needs to steal the many great ideas and changes you have done

 

[Ahwaric]

@Seon
Please do not apologize. I just decided that there are too many problems with the saved options to keep it. But I have written it in a rather harsh way, and for that I apologize (and you did all things right, there was an option added to main mod between patches I think, and I carried it here).
As for the cog, most transport ships can explore rival territory. It is meant to prevent the situation when you become 'landlocked' because of the unfriendly neighbours. Just another feature that is not documented save from the tooltips.
I better stop explaining myself now. Just accept the apologies

@sputnik323
Commanders are not supposed to spawn at all. I have kept them possible from lairs as a little easter egg - remnants of the ages past when commanders were spawn from buildings, not war Age of magic perhaps?

 

[StormbringerGT]

You know what would be a really nice perk for the dwarves, now that everyone else is getting some? I got 2 in mind actually.

1. They have a higher chance than anyone else, for finding resources in hills.

2. Their cities can work mountain tiles and mountain tiles give hammers and or gold. This could come later after a specific building has been built in the city (mining camp).

This would help lend a hand towards dwarven lore and dwarven players wouldnt be punished so bad for choosing hilly terrain. Especially flavour starts. This almost makes them more unique than the other races and they will ten to stick to mountains and hills.

 

[Wauthan]

It's weird to have a modmaker that actually thinks my ideas are any good. That never happened before.

Right, Unit-specific boosting Great General Wonders then. Some thoughts:

Spearmen/Pikemen - The strength of the long spear and pike has always been its usefulness in when you fight in close formations, e.g. the phalanx. It's a very clumsy weapon and only a fool would use it in single combat The strength of the wall of spears is to deny the enemy charge, and allow many to fight the same foe.

In game terms it would mean that pikeneers could be represented by a low strength unit with first strikes, a solid bonus to melee and excellent bonus against close combat cavalry. In the fantasy setting of FFH that should also get a good bonus against beasts and animals, especially fliers.

Hall of the Legion - Grants +10 xp to spearmen/pikemen. Grants "Wall of Spears" promotion, that either grants a bonus for every other unit with "Wall of spears" in the same tile. Or it gives a chance to do damage to attacking units, just like archers do. This way you sort of simulate units fighting in such a close formation, with polearms, that you essentially are fighting all of them at once. "You can fight one of us, but not all of us."

Bowmen/Crossbowmen/Musketmen - I have little to say about these units, since they are already so well implemented in the game. Ahwaric has wrestled with balance something fierce.

Guild of the Peerless - Yeah it's a punny name, was thinking about the old meaning of "sniper". Gives +10 xp, and Sniper promotion that simply gives a 20% retreat chance. All the boost archers need to become *really* good.

Cavalry - Really these guys should be the only ones to get the Mobility promotion. It's the whole point of the unit type that it's supposed to be faster then all the other types. These units are already the best ones in Orbi, and have plenty of boosting buildings. The bonus should then be noncombat.

Word of the Empire - Gives "Word Bearer" promotion & spell, which adds +2 culture to the city as long as the caster remains within.

Recon - These units are so anchored in fantasy that it's hard to come up with a realistic bonus for them. They are my least favorite units, concept wise, but usually the ones I build the most. They should be crappy units with long range vision (scrap the hawks) not stronger then conventional armies. Or perhaps ultra terrain specific guerrilla fighter? But I digress...

House of the Gilded Law - Grants "Bounty Hunter" promotion, which gives +5 gold for every unit killed.

Melee - First idea I had was a two for one deal, but then I remember that the Clan already has that. The footmen strength has always been quantity. Because if you go for quality you might as well give him a mount as well. Then I thought of a "Shield Wall" promotion but only a few units actually carry shields. But if Mobility is made Cavalry exclusive then a simple +1 movement would be neat bonus, representing better logistics, endurance training, etc.

That's all the ideas for today. *Yawn*

 

[Deon]

House of the Gilded Law - Grants "Bounty Hunter" promotion, which gives +5 gold for every unit killed.

Well, +5 seems too much for me, also there's a promotion already which gives +2 gold/combat. What if it was given with this wonder for free? I don't really see the point of two similar promotions. Also it can be upgraded to +3 gold/combat, because for now I don't know anyone who picks it while there's combatIV avaliable.

Ahwaric: do you plan a change for Muris Clan goblins event?

 

[Gilg]

From FF, I carry over mostly mechanics changes - I really like inquisition for agnostic civs (it was really needed). Also, I think that splitting barbarians into 3 civs is a great idea. It was discussed for a long time...
As the civs go, I do not want to port all of them. I want the civs to be really unique, and I am not sure if 2 lizard civs is not too much.
I love Scions of Patria and plan to ask Traqueline if he would mind if thay populate this mod too. But there is so little time and so much to do, so this import is scheduled for 'later'.
Colony leaders from the same civ is a recent FfH addition, so you should praise Kael for that. I just caused trouble - new civs do not have extra leaders.

About "2 lizard civs being too much"..... From my point of view I'd wellcome 25 new civs... If only there's some control with which and how many civs are in the actual game. New, well thought out civs are a bonus.

Of course we don't need 10 leaders competing for the deserts all at once, but I'd like somebody challenge the lanun on the seas.

 

[Ahwaric]

If only there's some control with which and how many civs are in the actual game. New, well thought out civs are a bonus.

Of course we don't need 10 leaders competing for the deserts all at once, but I'd like somebody challenge the lanun on the seas.

I like new civs but some of FF are just not unique enough for my taste. But I did not play them that much, so I can be wrong.
I have plenty of trouble to flavouring already existing ones - Mechanos, but also FFH ones
Lanun competition... do I smell Aifon conspiracy?

Well, +5 seems too much for me, also there's a promotion already which gives +2 gold/combat. What if it was given with this wonder for free? I don't really see the point of two similar promotions. Also it can be upgraded to +3 gold/combat, because for now I don't know anyone who picks it while there's combatIV avaliable.

Well, I do. Like to get something extra
But I will look for something better, not much fun here.

Ahwaric: do you plan a change for Muris Clan goblins event?

Yes, if total removal is considered a change. I thought I have already disabled it...

In general, I think there is too many events, but few good ones. I have plans to review them and remove some, while improving the rest.
So far the candidates to cut are:

• all events "have particular mana or suffer". Not fun, player's choices are nonexistent
• constellations - may stay at the current, low chance
• broken ones - i.e. "we found a witch" event. I think it was supposed to be first in a chain, but currently it could just be "your people found the witch and are happy to announce that they have burnt it...". There are several more that do nothing.

I want events to be meaningfull. The result may be good or bad, but I want player to have any choice, and the events to make sense.
My ideal is city feud. I do not rerquire all events to be that good, but will try to remove the really bad ones.

Talking of events, anyone got Cult of the Dragon founded (human or AI?)? Or Gaelan?

 

[Wauthan]

Talking of events, anyone got Cult of the Dragon founded (human or AI?)? Or Gaelan?

Sure, happens in almost every game I played so far. Are they supposed to be rare?

 

[Gilg]

You might have a point about the FF civs. They seem like the first draft of a quick idea made by a one man team.

As for the mechanos.... I don't you've chosen the easiest civ to build... magic is needed in ffh and wheels 'n' cogs haven't got a cousin closer than the fine golem wielding dwarves.

I'm not strong on the lore an i do not plan on becoming the next cultuum, but after what I have heard about the mystery of the aifon I like and as such they should have their mystery to themselves until danalin (or whats the name?!?) decides to make a full modmod/scenario comeback.
But it wouldn't be a bad thing with a non octopi water civ. or an agnostic Guild (corp) - stonemasons - builderciv with a happiness problem, but brilliant infrastructure....... Heh perhaps they should shout "SPQR" and have a strong swordsman UU.

But you know.... There is enough orbifans to make an argument for expansion and with a little wiggleroom you could request flavour ideas Ahwaric-style.

And btw. how about letting lighthouses spawn seafood in the bfc.?
Perhaps even spawn and allow an event that would deplete a resource.

Edit. About the events.... I think it would be dangerous to improve too much.... the mod is rich and high powered in many aspects and I think that events are so sensitive when it comes to boosts.. I'm not all for the resent 50 GP Great engineer event (seems overpowered, but then again..... gps are much needed in orbi.), but it has enabled me to get the "smelting corp" in a game where no engineers would spawn.

 

[arkham4269]

I like new civs but some of FF are just not unique enough for my taste. But I did not play them that much, so I can be wrong.
I have plenty of trouble to flavouring already existing ones - Mechanos, but also FFH ones Lanun competition... do I smell Aifon conspiracy?

Well I'm for pulling in the Scions. I've played them a lot lately. I'd also vote for the Jotnar when that mod gets fully squared away. They're fun to play.

My only other comment is I REALLY liked the aspect of the FiRe mod was how barb cities left to long morphed into Civs. In my opinion there are certain races that would seem good for those if not already in play, like the Doviello and the Malakim. I somethings wish that there was a 'randomness' to the barbarians in that they weren't automatically orcs/goblins but could be human, elf or dwarfish barbarians determined when they founded a city. That way when they morphed into civs later, you wouldn't wonder why a bunch or Orcs became the Elohim. Plus if those new minor leaders are used, you could have 'multiple' versions of the same culture in that you might have Arendel being a Good elvish race and then later a minor leader could arise from elvish barbarians that could either spawn the Svartalfar race (if not already in the game) or one of the neutral leaders of the Ljosalfar. Or maybe enough minor leaders could be created to fill a void or use existing ones. I mean couldn't you have Rivanna the Wraith Lord lead a group of evil Lojosalfar if the Svartalfar are already in play and the Ljosalfar are not?

That and I sometimes think that you needn't have the full FiRe revolution mod to maybe have some major events like the Minister of Kohn event where you'd have certain civs breaking off from established ones. The Dural and especially the Kahdi seem to me more break-away Civs than initial starting ones.

 

[Seon]

Pulling in the Scions is a good idea, truth be told when I first saw this mod, I had this dillema for which modmod tobdownload. Should I download FF for the Scions? Or the guilds with Orbis? In the end, I chose Orbis but I am soo happy to know that you are considering bringing in the Scions in this game. Thanks for the awesome mod