Orbis - the original thread

[Temudjin]

Hello Ahwaric, brilliant work with your modmod.
However I ran into a little problem when I tried to list the active GameOptions for my Ringworld2 map script.
FF and FFH with Flavour Start Mod do not exhibit the problem, so I did a little hunting expedition into your code-base.

I don't do SDK, so I can't be sure that's all there is to this Orbis error, but I think that in Orbis the line:
.value("GAMEOPTION_FLAVOUR_START", GAMEOPTION_FLAVOUR_START)
should be added in:
CyEnumInterface.cpp and the dll recompiled
as it is now, the system doesn't recognize GameOptionTypes.GAMEOPTION_FLAVOUR_START as valid.

 

[Yan Tsi]

Same vista crash happened to me:
1st one at turn 480 - now at 538. I am playing patch d and could avoid the first crash by reloading an earlier save and making defensive pacts to almost all civs. So this maybe avoids any actions, which caused the crash later on.
Using WB-editor on the "crash-saves" to have a closer look at the map caused random crashes and zooming out makes it crash for sure.

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: Civ4BeyondSword.exe
Application Version: 3.1.3.1
Application Timestamp: 48310000
Fault Module Name: CvGameCoreDLL.dll
Fault Module Version: 3.1.7.0
Fault Module Timestamp: 49a180b9
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 001df680
OS Version: 6.0.6001.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1031
Additional Information 1: 3164
Additional Information 2: f31c530d3d12785f4cca5eb2cbce0d8e
Additional Information 3: 5f87
Additional Information 4: 01bff28ec018e5af7a10ed0e25a03bbf

[edit...: main difference WB-crash

......
Fault Module Name: D3D9.DLL
......

btw
no flame tiles to be seen all over the map......

 

[Ahwaric]

Black knights? I personally think that Dark knight, chaos knight, and Infra-blacks sound cooler . Law knights can be Champions (recycling is good). Btw, can we expect to see some more ninja's in this game? Edit: how about calling sun knights Templers?

I think I will just stick to black knights , but I do love the Templars. Champions a bit less, but it is still ok. Anyway, any other ideas? Green knight and brass are quite ok IMHO, but shadow is perhaps too simillar to shadow knight, plus OO really need a new name.

I don't do SDK, so I can't be sure that's all there is to this Orbis error, but I think that in Orbis the line:
.value("GAMEOPTION_FLAVOUR_START", GAMEOPTION_FLAVOUR_START)
should be added in:
CyEnumInterface.cpp and the dll recompiled
as it is now, the system doesn't recognize GameOptionTypes.GAMEOPTION_FLAVOUR_START as valid.

Thanks for the tip, it was indeed missing. I have to update to Flavour last version, and double check if everything is where it should be.
The fix will come with the next version.

@Yan Tsi
Saves would help - I could test what is causing it. So far, no idea what the problem is. Sorry

 

[scutarii]

teach to AI how to use ranged attack on "sieging" enemy. AI in "ranged attack" modmods uses it pretty rarely on adversary, prefers direct assault instead of. Curiously enough, AI uses catapults as should.

Civ4 is essentially "Siege Total War" and therefore everything circling around siege is far more important.

 

[arkham4269]

I have built Kithra Kyriel in my last two games. I get a text error in the pop-up that announces he has been built. Almost like there is an error directing where the text is supposed to be pulled from. Doesn't cause a crash, just a missing text.

 

[Wauthan]

"Currently I have law knight, sun (light) knight, brass knight, green knight, knight of shadows, knight of overlords, black knight and dragon knight (CotD special one)." - Ahwaric Mar 11, 2009 12:55 AM

Right. I'll just make a list of names that pops into mind.

Justicar, Defender, Knight of Junil, Lawguard, Dreadnought, Knight of the Rose, Avenger, Crusader, Knight of the Blazing Sun, Sword of the Everlasting Light, Hospitaller, Golden Lion, Appointed, Son of Agares, Ashbringer, Stormbreaker, Forest rider, Knight-Errant, Paragon, Penitent, Questor, Herald, Voice of the Depths, Servant of the Lords, Lord Protector, Martyr, Steelsworn, Emerald Knight, Whisperer, Hornguard, Doombringer, Hammerer, Freelance, Chainbreaker, Darkbane, Lightbane, Thruthbearer, Slayer, Cavalier, Overseer, Traveller, Beastrider, Knight of the "Insert Orbis animal unit", Living Blade, Godslave, Emissary, Redeemer, Gemstone, Waverider, Enlighted, Temple Guardian, Sentinel, Reaver, Silver Heart, Student of the Dragon, Cloaked One, Drowned Lord, Outrider, Knight-Ranger, Adamantine, Commander, Fury, Custodian, Keeper, Plaugeborn.

Meep! *Falls over*

 

[arkham4269]

Thruthbearer

Trothbearer or Truthbearer or both?

 

[Seon]

Knight of the Overlords and Knight of the Shadows... Now that's a toughie. Maybe for the water knight you can put Sahagin Knight (Oh yes I just made a Mabinogi reference), and for shadows...maybe a Lagodesa? (darn, I made it again). Or maybe you can make shadow knights Abysswalkers.

@Ahwaric: shocked that you don't like my name selection for black knight maybe Dark Avenger, Dark Templar, Shillien Knights, Shillen Templar even, or Doomcryer would work

@Wauthan. One word. OMG

 

[Ahwaric]

Knight of the Overlords and Knight of the Shadows.... Or maybe you can make shadow knights Abysswalkers.

@Ahwaric: shocked that you don't like my name selection for black knight maybe Dark Avenger, Dark Templar, Shillien Knights, Shillen Templar even, or Doomcryer would work

@Wauthan. One word. OMG

I agree, Wauthan, OMG! Any prestige knight classes left? But you could spare yourself some typing as some names are already in... Anyway, some nice names in there.

@Seon
Abysswalker - sounds like OO knight... I like it!
And I mostly did not like infra-black knight, the other two are ok. I still think of it, maybe I should move templar to order knight and make dark/black templar it's twin? But I still prefger black knight. Watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail a few times too much Green knight is a nice name, too...

So current proposals are: O - Justicar (Lawguard? Lord Protector?), E - Templar (Knight of the Blazing Sun?), RoK - Steelsworn (Hornguard? Brass knight?), FoL - Emerald Knight (or Green), CoE - Outrider (Reaver?), OO - Abysswalker, AV - Black Knight (Ashbringer? Reaver?)

Edit: changed names a bit. what do you (especially native english speakers ) think?

 

[Brokenbone]

How are these knightly orders envisioned to be founded? Like a guild where you sacrifice a Great Person? Built like a wonder where only one city gets to be the founder of "Order of the _______ HQ"? Built like a National Wonder where several nations could all share the same knightly order? Built like a plain old building once you have the tech and the right alignment/religion/mana/ etc.?

Anyhow, sounds like it will make for interesting flavor, though it might end up weird if at a certain part of the game (tech or whatever) everything becomes "knights focused." Still may be cool to play it that way, i.e., a new "line" to pursue rather than say, magic or religious or melee etc., some kind of special evolving (squire to better?) religious/mounted mix.

 

[Ahwaric]

I have added (unreleased) a new nationbal wonder - Order of Knights. It is buildable only by great general, and requires monasticism tech.
It is one of the special academies I have added recently. There is Castra Legionis for Melee units and Wild haven that benefits recon the most. There is also one general building that improves all unitcombats - military academy.
I plan Naval Academy for ships (?) and Engineering Corps (repair ability? special unit able to build siege engines/fortifications in the field?) for siege units. No idea for archers right now
The main idea is to allow player to specialize his army to a particular combat type, on top of civ strengths. Want superior melee units - get castra legionis and military academy in a city you want to build the units. Only Military academy can share a city with another academy (so no both order of knights and castra legionis in one city).

Order of knights is for mounted units. The reasoning is that in most nations, only nobles could afford a horse, even in nations that prefered other types of combat (i.e. roman equites)

The building will allow mounted units to train to squire status. Squires then will ba able to become knights of the particular order at lvl 6. Order currently depends on the state religion. There are no new units, everything is done via promotions (which by the way need to be fleshed out first).
I want the squire and knight status to be somehow elite, so the spell will probably cost around 100 gold.
I am open to any suggestions on how the actual implementation should work (what are the benefits of every promotion etc.) Also, should knights lost the promotion if the state religion is changed and gain a new one or should they keep the old one? Should they abandon? Should the knight status only depend on the state religion or units will be required to have the right religion?

One more thing - paladins build/trained in city with order of knights will be able to mount/unmount at will changing the unit combat type between melee and mounted.

 

[scutarii]

on theory, knights stood for virtue and honor( life of course isn't black and white), so religions like order and empyreian should boost knights( how - more speed, morale, possibilites are many). Abandoning order and empyreian should mean that knights loose their "special boost".

 

[Seon]

I agree, Wauthan, OMG! Any prestige knight classes left? But you could spare yourself some typing as some names are already in... Anyway, some nice names in there.

@Seon
Abysswalker - sounds like OO knight... I like it!
And I mostly did not like infra-black knight, the other two are ok. I still think of it, maybe I should move templar to order knight and make dark/black templar it's twin? But I still prefger black knight. Watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail a few times too much Green knight is a nice name, too...

So current proposals are: O - Justicar (Lawguard? Lord Protector?), E - Templar (Knight of the Blazing Sun?), RoK - Steelsworn (Hornguard? Brass knight?), FoL - Emerald Knight (or Green), CoE - Outrider (Reaver?), OO - Abysswalker, AV - Black Knight (Ashbringer? Reaver?)

Edit: changed names a bit. what do you (especially native english speakers ) think?

If you insist . Just make sure you put the classic "Comeon you Pansy!" Monty Python audio file for the Black knight

 

[arkham4269]

So current proposals are: O - Justicar (Lawguard? Lord Protector?), E - Templar (Knight of the Blazing Sun?), RoK - Steelsworn (Hornguard? Brass knight?), FoL - Emerald Knight (or Green), CoE - Outrider (Reaver?), OO - Abysswalker, AV - Black Knight (Ashbringer? Reaver?)

Edit: changed names a bit. what do you (especially native english speakers ) think?

Order: Justicar - It has a nice snobby sound to it; sure it sounds like Justice but it also has that sort of menacing sound to it. I've always pointed out that when things go bad, people will choose Order over Law (as in law & order) and folks like Darth Vader will certainly bring order to the galaxy, just not in the way you might like it. Thus Justicar sound like someone you don't want to mess with.

Empyrium: For some reason I want to use a name that invokes the sun, but most of the words I'm thinking of (like Helios) are all sort of Greek/Roman related.

RoK: I like Steelsworn but Hornguard is nice, even though it's already a UU.

FoL: Order of the Emerald Knights sounds about right.

CoE: I like Reaver but that sounds a bit to illegal out front. Outrider has more of a 'ranger' sound to it so I'd go with it.

OO: Abysswalker sounds a bit odd, but I can't think of anything better.

AV: I'm going to go with Darkknights

Humanism/Agnostic: I think Hospitaller would fit them. I think this fits both the Mechanos and the Grigori in the sense that they do their works not because a God tells them too but because they feel they create their own reality.

So then the only question remains is would the Illians and Risen Emperor have a UU to compensate? I mean I could see them building a sort of Praetorian Order to Auric or the Emperor. Then there is the lizards; I never play them so I don't remember if they are agnostic or what is their deal. I guess I wish they were evil and more like the common sci-fi/comic theme where there was an ancient race of lizards that ruled over man early on before being cast down.

 

[Wauthan]

Some more ideas. As If you had not heard enough of me already.
I see the knightly orders as an equivalent of the priests, basically clerics trained in the use of arms rather then spells. So the same mechanics should apply. Units stay when you change religion. All mounted units built in the city belong to the state religion. You can't construct the building if the city lacks a temple to the state religion.

Order: In spite of being "good" I envision these guys to be a lot like the inquisition. The priests might be a good natured bunch, in theory, but the Justicars are out in the field fighting demons. When your enemy is the devil, literally, trivial matters like morality might be tossed aside in the name of the greater good. I assume they would not take well to the presence of Ashen Veil. Promotion could be a bonus against demons, undead and mages (burn the witch!).

Empyrium: Fanatic devotion to the cause, but tempered with wisdom and patience. The faith is all about honor, truth and battle against darkness. Promotion could be the ability to see invisible units, negating assassination as well as a combination of both fearless and loyalty.

RoK: These would be more like "our" knights. Virtuous, at least on the surface, but pretty darn greedy. Defensive specialists that just won't go away. Promotion could be a fortification bonus, gold for defeated enemies as well as bonus against siege.

FoL: Woodsman riders, beast slayers and defenders of wild places. Normally I would expect cavalry to have a penalty when fighting in the forests. But since we don't have that in civ 4 these guys could get a bonus instead. They could also get a bonus against beast units, not animals, or perhaps a bonus against enemy cavalry (warhorses hesitate to charge an emerald knight).

CoE: These guys would be more like leaders of organized crime, rather then knights in the usual meaning. Since CoE doesn't have priests these units are all the faith has to protect itself. Perhaps the promotion could be "Blackmail", which causes an enemy unit to do something random (Immobile, move random direction, attack random unit, switch to your side) or it could simply be the ability to sometimes get control over a defeated enemy unit.

OO: Since the priests are frikkin nuts these guys would be not so much the sword but the sanity of the faith. Less about defeating enemies, more about keeping control. The promotion could be the ability to increase happiness by +1 in the city they are in (or negate 1 unhappy). Or the ability to instantly end unrest in a city.

AV: Not very nice guys. Will in fact bite your head off, if they lack any other way to hurt you. Since the veil as all about power, damn the consequences, they could get a promotion that grants them xp whenever they raze a city. The more population in the city, the more xp.

Humanism/Agnostic: This would be a secular order, focusing on strength of arms. This could be as simple as a flat strength bonus, or perhaps a "Unstoppable Charge" promotion that gives the units a solid bonus when fighting on plains and grasslands.

 

[TimSLS]

Further adding to the glut of ideas, maybe a couple of the guilds could use some special mlitary functions? For example, the Hansiatic League (Hansa) did do some fighting in its time, especally against pirates. Maybe it could grant a promotion, for a cost, that gives a plus against hidden nationality units?

 

[arkham4269]

One aspect of these Knightly Orders is that since they won't show up till later in the game due to the need of a Monastery, I think there ought to be a bit of a 'penalty' to them instead of just more neat units to build.

Toward the later part of the game, I would think that the lines between G, N and E have been drawn. By this time of the game, most if not all Civs will have a religion if they can get one.

So while having these Knightly Orders is nice to have the units, I would think that the downside is that Knightly Orders where not about being diplomatic; they are the paladins of an ideology and ideologues tend not to want to look at each side of a argument. So kind of how I envisioned each Knightly Order having a quest, I would think that every Order should have a 'mission statement' as it were. If you (the player) don't abide by that, you will suffer from more in your cities and maybe other inventive nasty events.

For example, you have the Knights of the Beautific Order. You border the Clan (evil w/FoL) as well as the Balseraphs (evil w/AV). The Clan is fighting the Amurites (w/Empyrium). So your knights are going to be unhappy that you are A) not fighting the Balseraph to stamp out the AV religion and B) aren't at war with the Clan to help fight against evil...and probably a fellow Overcouncil member.

So if you stay at peace with them, you might get events like.
A) "Justicars call for justice for the oppress! Call King 'soft on evil'": +
B) "Priests of Order question King's piety due to continued spread of evil": -
C) "Generals grumble that their troops rot in the barracks while evil is afoot": loss of xp for certain amount of soldiers.

To bad you don't FF hasn't integrated the Fall Into Revolution mod yet. I would think the longer you don't fulfill your Order's mission statement, the more unrest you'd have. Anyway, so yes, building an Knightly Order would get you some nice units but would come as a price of having fewer diplomatic options.

 

[arkham4269]

Humanism/Agnostic: This would be a secular order, focusing on strength of arms. This could be as simple as a flat strength bonus, or perhaps a "Unstoppable Charge" promotion that gives the units a solid bonus when fighting on plains and grasslands.

Well going back to one of my ideas, I think that for the most part this Order would be for Mechanos and the Grigori. Both are very anti-religion so I'd expect them to be able to get rid of religions in cities. I would also think that (if possible) that they would raze Holy Cities instead of taking them.

 

[arkham4269]

I used that Art A fix and yet I'm still getting a problem with the assassin.

Here is the closest save I have.

 

[Ahwaric]

Sorry, I have not yet had the time to check it. Will do it after work.

@TimSLS
Nice idea! Hansa is one of the better guilds already (free expanded cargo and naval xp), but I might add a small bonus against pirates.

I did some more thinking on knightly orders. Some proposals:

Justicar (Order) - +1 holy strength, +25% vs demons, removes all religions (except order, empyrean and RoK) in captured cities, -1 population for every religion removed (-2 if religion is AV, you can never be too sure...)

Templar (Empyrean) - +25 vs vampires, fearless, can dismount at will (and mount back, dismounted gets defensive bonuses), +30% city defense (no better ideas atm, but will change I hope). I do not want another see invisibility to empyrean - plenty of that already.

Steelsworn (Runes of Kilmorph) - get defensive bonuses, can purchase extra weapons (dwarven?)

Emerald Knight (FoL) - double ancient forest movement (forest too?), +30% forest attack/defense, can adopt totems

Raubritter (my current favorite name for them ) (Council of Esus) - double gold from pillage, can bribe enemy units (range 1 ability, costs 25 gold, if resistance fails enemy can't move for 1 turn)

Abysswalker (better name needed) - waterwalk? revolt protection?

Black knight - + 1 unholy - halve captured city population, gets the same amount of xp, infernal player gets extra manes (half of reduced population, regardless of city alignement)?

Dragon knight - fear?

Agnostics - hmm...

Currently I want this abilities to be permanent and they will set unit's religion to appropiate one. Good knights will have a chance to abandon and will have reduced abilities when at evil religions, justicars will be able to fall and become black knights.