Orthus and the custom setting for additional animals

[Skitters]

My experience of Orthus in .34 is that he snuffs it shortly after being spawned.

However, I suspect that is because I've been in the habit of using the custom setting for additonal animals (Live world?), so that when Orthus is spawned he is pretty much the only non-animal Barb unit around (except a few Scorpion clan Goblins that won't be budging from their fort in a hurry) and maybe the odd Lair spawned Lizardman (who similarly are more likely to be more interested in guarding the lair).

As such I'm wondering whether - if the setting is chosen - could it also delay Orthus' appearance? So that (hopefully) when he does arrive there will be a sizeable number of Orc warriors for him to lead into battle?

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

What if Orthus started with his own world spell of sorts, that summoned a percentage of the worlds barbarian units... at minimum, the ones who aren't guarding anything.

Would this be possible? Would it make Orthus that much more difficult, or too difficult?

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Psycho_Ivan : That's a vile-performance killer as already seen in the old (but gold) incarnation of the avatar of wrath. (who did just that with 40% of the world units). So sadly that seems a no-go except perhaps for a modmod.

Animal AI until XP > 26/37/50 might be better if it would be possible in an easy fashion.

 

[Mailbox]

Why not just spawn him with an entourage based on the map size? I'm sure that Orthus would be better off if he had some friends, although that would mean a greater chance of the human losing a city.

 

[Sarisin]

Skitters, I think you make an excellent suggestion and I do think using the Wildlands option may have something to do with the problem.

In previous versions of FFH long ago, Orthus would spawn and come to your civ with a bunch of barb spearmen (that's what they were called back then) and goblins. It was a lot more difficult then taking on many barbs with Orthus in the mix than just Orthus as you mentioned.

I think it would probably be better if he spawned when the main barb force spawned - this is based on the total number of cities settled in your game, but I find in epic speed games around turn 200. Orthus now comes always at turn 114 and, as you said, there are very few real barbs on the map then - only Bears, etc.

 

[onedreamer]

@Skitters

your observation is correct (Orthus dies soon in 0.34) but not your supposed cause. Orthus already spawns way earlier than barbarians from several versions. The reason why he gets killed sooner in this version is that the barbarian AI has been changed to beeline towards cities. So that's what he does now and why he gets killed sooner than before. But you must also consider that for the same reason he often causes more trouble than he did before. So in the end I think it is an acceptable tradeoff.

 

[TheGreatSteve]

The idea is sound but the implementation isn't. Combining him spawning alone and rushing to the nearest city just makes him dead, not a threat. In my last game he spawned outside my borders, walked up to my city, and died attacking a warrior. 3~ turns in and I have been gifted a bunch of xp and his Axe.

If he is going to spawn and head in, he should start with like 10 XP, already used to buy him Combat III. If you just increase his strength it makes problems on the rare times he doesn't immediately suicide and is allowed to accumulate XP, this way he starts off stronger but doesn't have the potential to accidently become 'Orthus, Destroyer of Civilizations'

 

[rezaf]

But you must also consider that for the same reason he often causes more trouble than he did before. So in the end I think it is an acceptable tradeoff.

Most people seem to share the observation that Orthus dies VERY soon after spawning, though. Doesn't that imply that he actually does not cause "trouble" all that often?
If he stays like he is now, I suggest renaming him "AxeEx".
_____
rezaf

 

[BillSeurer]

T...this way he starts off stronger but doesn't have the potential to accidently become 'Orthus, Destroyer of Civilizations'

But, but, that's who he is supposed to be! Read his flavor text.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah, Orthus needs some kind of boost or a behaviour change right now. not sure what could be done, plenty of options, but everyone agrees that he's no longer a threat in 0.34, just a walking nice axe

 

[Imuratep]

How about spawning a barbarian orc on his tile, every time Orthus wins a combat? This way he could really summon armies and be the treat he should be. Reduce the chance he defends the stack and he won't be so easy to kill. In addition he should wait till he has march because otherwise he will still be killed to easyly.

 

[Blackmantle]

Giving him Command 4 (70% chance to capture) might have a simmilar effect and might be easier to code and accomplish something very simmilar...

 

[smusebaer]

I mostly play raging Barbarians.
And Ortus does a LOT of damage. destroys a lot of improvements, sometimes takers a city, and kills 3-4 Warriors. I think he shold have march, because healing is a Problem.

 

[Amerigo Arturo]

It seems, in my games, how dangerous Orthus and other barbarians are, is based on whether or not I use an advanced start.

 

[deadliver]

I mostly play raging Barbarians.
And Ortus does a LOT of damage. destroys a lot of improvements, sometimes takers a city, and kills 3-4 Warriors. I think he shold have march, because healing is a Problem.

he definitely needs march.

 

[Anathema]

Advanced start always nerfs barbarians in general, as do several other game options (any map with a lot of water, for example, hardly leaves room for land barbarians to spawn). If I pick anything like that, I accept that barbarians just aren't going to amount to much because of it.

The problem I think is that even under ideal conditions (ancient age, no advanced start, raging barbarians, barbarian world, land map with default number or fewer civilizations) Orthus can be easily defeated by spawning too soon and beelining for a city without a decent orc army to support him.

Personally I think the best solution would be spawning him with at least 2-3 orcs to help out plus giving him lower chance to defend the stack, and starting with march or command promotions wouldn't hurt either. Yeah this runs the risk of making Orthus the all-powerful destroyer of civilizations, but I wouldn't mind if he took out a civilization (or at least a city or two) once in a while, it's better than him being an easy kill and free xp+axe buff to whoever he spawns nearby. There is an option to disable him after all, if you want to play a game without his interference.

 

[Imuratep]

Giving him Command 4 (70% chance to capture) might have a simmilar effect and might be easier to code and accomplish something very simmilar...

Only that the troops couldn't be use as a protection for Orthus, because captured units are seriously damaged.

 

[onedreamer]

The idea is sound but the implementation isn't. Combining him spawning alone and rushing to the nearest city just makes him dead, not a threat.

This isn't correct. I didn't say he will rush to the nearest city, and most often he just doesn't. He will rush toward a civ. It can happen that this is the nearest civ, in this case not enough turns will pass for him to gain enough promotions and he may die without causing too much trouble. Thuogh if he rushes to other civs and gets there with combat 5 and some other promotion, he can be mean because rushing means that that civ may still be defending with warriors. I have witnessed Orthus taking several AI controlled cities in the last version, which he wouldn't do previously because he would wander for a hundred or more turns , sure this would delay his death but it wouldn't be any good for the gameplay because he would face stronger defenses and would die without creating much trouble.

If he is going to spawn and head in, he should start with like 10 XP, already used to buy him Combat III.

Yeah, starting with combat 3 would be a good idea probably.

Most people seem to share the observation that Orthus dies VERY soon after spawning, though. Doesn't that imply that he actually does not cause "trouble" all that often?

No, it doesn't to anyone who stop thinking for more than a second. See my comment above, the fact that he dies sooner or later isn't necessarily related to how much trouble he has caused before his death.

 

[rezaf]

No, it doesn't to anyone who stop thinking for more than a second. See my comment above, the fact that he dies sooner or later isn't necessarily related to how much trouble he has caused before his death.

At least in all of my 0.34 games (mostly noble difficulty on a normal sized PerfectWorld map with FlavourMod starting locations) he never caused any trouble. If the first opposition Orthus runs into is strong, he dies right away.
If it is weak (not strong enough to outright defeat him) he might gain a few XP, but he will also be weakened considerably in the process.
In the seven 0.34 games I played far enough for Orthus to spawn so far, he survived longer than 10 turns in only a single one, when the Civ he beelined was mine and I was playing on a Large PW map - quite the distance for him to travel. When he finally got there, his strength had diminished to 3.x and he was disposed of by a single basic Warrior defending the city (no palisade or walls).
In all the other games he died sooner, most often just about five turns after spawning. I dunno if/how the AI passes items around, but in one game I MUCH later grabbed his axe off of a Doviello Scout...
_____
rezaf

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Only that the troops couldn't be use as a protection for Orthus, because captured units are seriously damaged.

They would be damaged if he captures them via Command, but that isn't the only way he can get units from combat. I'm thinking giving him <UnitCreateFromCombat>UNIT_AXEMAN</UnitCreateFromCombat> could be cool.