OSG 14 - Cold Blooded Killers

[dathon78]

One of the areas of this game that is relatively unexplored is bioweapons. While incredibly powerful, their use comes at a heavy cost. Every bombardment earns the player a full level diplomatic hit with every race in the game. Plus, destroying a colony eliminates the chance for looting tech from invasions, not to mention the clean-up costs. From what I've observed, bioweapons are more in the game to give the AI a credible answer to shielding than for the player's use. Without them, we could just sit back under a few bases in the early going with relative impunity. So we at Realms Beyond decided to explore these weapons for our next variant.

OSG 14 - Cold Blooded Killers
Race: Sakkras
Difficulty: Hard
Map: Large
Opponents: 5

Variant Rules:
*Planetary invasions are not allowed. Any new planets must be obtained by destroying the existing colony with bioweapons (either on the tactical screen, or afterwards) and re-settling.
*We may not use bombs of missiles to target a planet under any circumstances.
*No shield-halving beams may be placed on a ship with death spores.
*Regular beams may be placed on a death spore ship, but the number of spores must be greater than the number of beams.

The spirit of the last three rules is that all planetary damage must be dealt directly to the populace through spores. Bases and factories should be left untouched as far as possible. The last rule is intended to allow for utility ships (like a Huge ARS) to serve double-duty by loading some spores onboard. Use your common sense in designing your vessels, and if at all possible, I'd like to see no other weapons on spore ships. Remember the point of this variant is to explore the bioweapons; Huge ships with Heavy Fusion beams pummeling the planet is NOT what we are going for here!

Exploit Rules:
*If missile boats are forced to retreat, they must leave for a friendly world before returning.
*Obsolete missile boats may not be used to "pin" incoming targets at the back of the screen. Again, use common sense here; if our current designs can't reach the last row, then it's ok to use a shot to delay the enemy approach. But get those boats in range for the rest of the fight!

Roster:
dathon78
StuporMan
Sullla
OlorinStormcrow
Blake
Zed-F

Roster is closed. Standard 48/24 hour "got it"/reporting rules in effect. Report from first few turns forthcoming.

dathon

 

[dathon78]

I played 40 turns to start us off. That's quite a few, but the early turns are very quick, and we've got a VERY unusual map for this one. I'm not sure we'll want to keep it, so think about that as you read. Here it is:



First off, we got a very good mix of opponents. Psilons, Klackons, and Humans for a serious threat, Darloks to stir up trouble, and Bulrathi that we can pick on Plus, we can probably pick up some tech from spying on the bears and bugs.

Now to that map. I had a difficult decision at the start, as there were a whopping 4 planets in range from the start. I ultimately decided on position (green) over planet odds (yellow). Turns out that was a very good call, as that was the only one of the four planets that was inhabitable (size 35 minimal). The other planet east of it with our flag is a size 120 Terran; very nice!

Now for the markings on the map. The Humans and Darloks have their homeworlds in the purple triangle. Darloks are undoubtedly the top right, and have scouted the two purple-circled planets to our SE (beat me by a turn to our world of Maretta during scouting). The Humans own the top left planet, as evidenced by a scout I chased away at the Barren in the nebula, but that could be their second world. We'll know in a couple turns when those scouts hit. To make up for the inhospitable start, we have no less than SIX rich (dark blue) or ultra rich (light blue) planets in range. The Barren is size 110!! The eastern Dead is size 50, and the Rich tundra in range is size 40. The green circle is a size 45 artifacts planet.

On the tech front, we do indeed have Death Spores. We drew Scatter packs from the Artifacts world, securing our defense for some time to come. I've only opened Propulsion and Planetary thus far. I researched Improved Eco and Range 4 (only choices) using the best-economy method. My final turn saw our third tech, Controlled Tundra, come in; I chose Spores next, over our only other choice, Controlled Toxic. Very weird there; excellent at Planetology, yet only 4/11 techs available in the first three tiers. Propulsion-wise, I chose Range 6 over both Nukes and Stabilizers.

No skirmishes outside of the usual scout encounters. There are 30 popguns at Maretta, but given the buffer of radiated planets between us and the Darloks (which I just discovered), they could probably be moved core-ward. There are 9 LR Lasers at the Barren UR (Escalon), and I currently have the fighters bound for there. Sssla has 150 factories, and is set to build a Tundra colony ship for the Barren in 4 turns.

Now, what could possibly be wrong with this map, you ask? I think it might be too easy So here's some pros and cons I came up with (from a challenge prospective):

Pros
*Psilons and Klackons are on this map, and we haven't met them yet, so they've got a chance to become a decent threat.
*The plethora of rich planets is offset somewhat by lack of early terraforming. We've missed the first three levels, keeping our economy in check.
*Isolated start gives us a better chance to get going before an early vote.

Cons
*Our planet draw is ridiculously good. Size 110 UR? Size 40 Rich? 45 Artifacts? Size 120 normal? Two more UR's with the next environment tech? We're going to have some sick production capability very soon.
*The isolated start, combined with the free scatter packs, means we are in absolutely no danger for quite awhile. Besides the Humans and Darloks, the other homeworlds are along the edges of the map. Nobody is going to get to us until we are all cranked up, and by then, I don't think we're going to feel very threatened.
*Nobody has set off the first threshold by GNN yet, so nobody is off to a quick start. If we get to that middle cluster on the map first, and that's got a decent number of worlds, it's game over right there.

My inclination is that this map is too easy for our purposes. I don't have time until Monday to generate another start, so I thought I'd put this one out there for the group to see. We have three options:

1) Play it out
2) Abandon this map for something more challenging
3) Keep the map, but go with a different variant ruleset to make it harder, leaving bioweapons for the next OSG.

Thoughts?

 

[OlorinStormcrow]

I have to agree with your assessment about the map. It is ridiculously easy. With the two radiateds and our fighters defending the UR Barren, the Humans are Darlocks can't get to the other R and UR planets before us. None of the other yellow stars is close enough either. We will soon have all 4 UR and one R planet, and probably not even be hemmed in yet.

With all that production, we'll be able to pump out spore ships and not care how many get shot down. It will be hard to make this remain challenging on Hard.

If we decide to continue, I think this rule should be added for sure:
--No use of planetary reserves, period.

I can see two options to perhaps make this game stay challenging

1) Go to Final War at the first vote. Restrict spying to only the Psilons and the Darlocks so that we don't just get all AI techs off the security-challenged races.

--Pitfall; if any one of the AIs has Antidotes in their tree, they will all get them. If they get Universal Antidotes and Bio Terminator is not in our tree, we cannot win under the variant rules (unless we pick it up from the Guardian). In the normal variant, this is also a danger, but if only 1 or 2 AI races become immune to bioweapons, we can still pull off a Senate win.

2) No Final War. Instead, we restrict spying to Hide and Sabotage only. No stealing tech or trading for it (we have to research everything ourselves). This way, a large chunk of our economy will be needed to keep up with the AI tech, and we may suffer from lack of key techs not in our tree.



Problem is, with either of those options, I can't imagine how the AIs will ever make us worry about losing. They might make it a little tougher to win, and stretch the game out, but 4 URs = Win.

I'd prefer to restart on a new map. Unless we entirely change variant to make it much tougher.

@Dathon: I would be very interested in getting the turn 1 save of this map if you have it. It would be interesting to come up with a really nasty variant and see if this map could be lost. Also, I have some free time this weekend, so if the consensus is to reroll the map, I'm willing do it.

*edit: Great name for a Sakkra bioweapon variant!

 

[IamI3rian]

Roster closed? Aw... I really wanted to get in on this one. For what it's worth, I would have to agree that the map seems quite a bit too easy. Even if the AI's got similar planets (unlikely) or even better ones (almost impossible), I still don't think it would be too hard to win. Even on impossible. I too, would be curious about the turn one save. If you happen to re-roll the map, please post the turn one save of the new map, so I can play it myself.

 

[Blake]

What kind of variant could possible make that start challenging???

No spending on defenses?

So, reroll...

 

[dathon78]

@Olorin - Go ahead and re-roll the map. We've got half the team already, and if I know Zed, that would be his sentiment as well. I think I still have the turn one save; I'll post it on Monday if I have it. I would make sure we get both spores and some challenging opponents.

@IamI3rian - I thought long and hard about the roster. Seven people is an awful lot for a succession game, especially for MOO. The game is just over too quick, and everybody only gets to play a couple times. If we can find Liq or vmxa, we'd have enough for two teams of 4. Or, maybe we want to run two games anyways, team of 4 and team of 3? I'm definitely not trying to exclude anybody. I think it is great that we're seeing some new faces and interest. If we can't get you in this game, then I'll sit out the next one to make sure you're in. I would have bowed out of this one, but I've been wanting to do this concept for a long time!

dathon

P.S. Thanks for the compliment Olorin!

 

[Sullla]

@IamI3rian - I thought long and hard about the roster. Seven people is an awful lot for a succession game, especially for MOO. The game is just over too quick, and everybody only gets to play a couple times. If we can find Liq or vmxa, we'd have enough for two teams of 4. Or, maybe we want to run two games anyways, team of 4 and team of 3? I'm definitely not trying to exclude anybody. I think it is great that we're seeing some new faces and interest. If we can't get you in this game, then I'll sit out the next one to make sure you're in. I would have bowed out of this one, but I've been wanting to do this concept for a long time!

Personally I think 6 is already a lot for a Succession Game roster... Why not split things into two games playing the same save (as floated above)? We could then compare at the end and see how things diverged. I certainly wouldn't mind being on a roster of 3 and playing turns more often. (I've run a SG with as few as one other person before - it can most definitely be done!)

Indifferent about the map, but passionate about not excluding anyone who wants to play.

 

[IamI3rian]

Either way is fine with me. I'd love to play, but I don't mind sitting out. Since you do have the turn one save, playing it myself might be just as fun. I might even be so inclined as to post a decent battle report somewhere. Then again, splitting into two teams might be cool too. A little friendly competition . One way or the other though, I'm gonna biobomb someone with a few million spore ships

 

[StuporMan]

I have seen this, and I would have to say that the draw is too easy. I will gladly play it out, but I would declare us to be in a victory position already at this point (barring some crazy variant rules).

edit:
I see that it is my turn. I will wait till Monday to see if we decide to play on or reroll. I am out of town anyway and wouldn't have a reasonable shot at playing till Monday anyway.

StuporMan

 

[OlorinStormcrow]

I went ahead a made a new map. It's a much more reasonable start this time. No riches in initial range, and one UP that might be needed as a stepping stone.

I've attached the save for turn one. It's a third slot save.

I also played out the first 20 turns, and I'll post the results below. If we are going to split into two teams, then whoever wants to start the second team's game should take the 2300 save and play their turn before they see my results. In the past, when the OSGs have split into two teams, they run in separate threads.

 

[OlorinStormcrow]

First 20 turns on the new map. Here is the situation in 2320:





I sent the colony to Quayal, the only star in range. Fortunately it is an Ocean 80. The Sakkras were able to send out 25 colonists in fairly short order. I produced a 5 pack of scouts and sent them out, adding a few later to cover all planets in range.

I opened up both Planetology and Propulsion around 2310. It was IT+10 or ImpEco in Planets, I chose IT+10. Propulsion had on Range 4 as a choice. That works pretty well, since R4 will allow us to access the habitable planets we've scouted, with a bit of stepping stone work. IT+10 came in on my last turn. ImpEco, IT+20, Dead, and Death Spores available. I chose Death Spores because of the variant we're running. We may need to go back for Dead, and possibly ImpEco too, unless RW80% is in our Construction tree.

I produced a Colony on my last turn, it's set to go to Rigel (Desert 60), which is the only choice at R3. I also set Sssla and Quayal to terraform, Sssla in 1 turn, Quayal will take 2.

The save is for slot 4.

 

[dathon78]

Alright, how does this sound: I'll take Stup and Sullla, and we'll form an OSG14b game. That leaves Olorin, Zed, IamI3rian, and Blake on team A. Does that sound good?

dathon

 

[Sullla]

I have no objections to Dathon's proposal.

 

[StuporMan]

That sounds great to me.

Stup

 

[IamI3rian]

Assuming it's ok with everyone else, thanks a bunch. We'll need a roster for game A, and since Olorin already took his turns, I suggest:

Olorin <-- Just played
Zed <-- UP NOW
I3rian <-- On deck
Blake

On a side note... It only took me three days to figure out why Cold Blooded Killers was a good name Clearly not the sharpest pencil in the box.

 

[dathon78]

You guys may want to put Zed at the end of your roster; he said he was going to be on vacation until the 21st. I'll start the OSG13b thread tomorrow.

dathon

 

[IamI3rian]

In that case, let's go with:

Olorin <-- Just played
Blake <-- UP NOW
I3rian <-- On deck
Zed

I'd take my set now, but I probably won't be able to play any, until tomorrow.

 

[Blake]

Oh great. I'm up second? No pressure on the newbie .

Any advice like on what planets might need to be defended with LR Lasers? It looks to me as if there's a good gulf of empty space and/or dead worlds between us and any potential neighbors.

Most importantly, how many turns do I play?

 

[dathon78]

For those lurking, OSG14b has begun here.

Good luck guys!

P.S. Here is turn one from that ridiculous start.

 

[OlorinStormcrow]

The first 60-100 years we usually play 20 turns each, and then play 10 turns each for the rest of the game. Since we have a roster of 4, we should each play on 20 year turn, and then start with the 10 year turns for the second round.

As to strategy:
There's a colony ship en route to Rigel. When it's founded, you need to do 2 things. 1) Send colonists from our other planets to bring the new colony up to roughly 1/3rd full. 2) Send out scouts to any worlds that are now in range. Generally, we like to leave scouts orbiting any worlds where the AI scouts might show up, since that let's us know where they are coming from. So you'll probably have to build some extra scouts.

After Rigel, the only planet in R3 is UP Simius. Not a great planet to get on its own, but it will bring Maalor to R4, and also bring a couple unexplored planets within R3 or R4. On the other hand, if you get R4 before sending out the next colony ship, Proteus and Selia will both be in range. Proteus is larger, but Selia would allow us to advance towards the middle of the map, and allow scouting past the line of empty/hostile worlds. I'd recommend either Proteus or Selia as the next colony after Rigel, but you'll have to decide based on what else is close to Simius, or whether we see any AI activity.

On the tech front, R4 is getting close, but make sure you remember to reduce eco spending after the terraforming is done on Sssla and Quayal. Once you have a bit more BCs in tech, you might want to open construction and see what's there. Don't forget to have some new scouts ready for when R4 is discovered. You'll be able to send them to all the planets at R7 (there are quite a few of them).

As to LR lasers, I don't see any candidates for them yet. We have yet to see even an enemy scout, so the worlds we've currently explored should be safe for quite awhile. Also, none of the worlds we've scouted are really worth using LR lasers to protect them. Getting 4 LR lasers built and out to defend a planet takes a good chunk of what it would cost for a new colony ship. As it stands, I'd rather get the next colony ship out a few turns faster than build a force of LR lasers when we haven't even seen the AI scouts yet.

Basically, it boils down to a situation where the planets that are more than R4 are either hostile, or well behind our lines. R4 will be in soon, so if we find it necessary to protect one of those planets, 20-30 laser popguns will do it more cheaply.