Our Lovely Island

RegentMan

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What we thought was a peninsula is now known to be an island. That opens the possibility that we might want to change up our strategy.

I'm just taking these ideas from the turn discussion thread; none are mine.

1. Continue with the Stonehenge plan.
Just like it reads, we continue with our plan to build Stonehenge.

2. Go for the Colossus
a. via the Oracle
b. naturally

3. Go for sailing and expand

With Agriculture coming in soon, do we want to research mysticism still? We have bronze working queued up after that, so we could swap them, but that would delay Stonehenge. What irony- us needing more time to discuss. And this is more than warrior moves...
 
Some elaboration. I am not sure what I would prefer really, though I think my views on Stonehenge may have been shaken just a little too much by the development we are seeing.

Anyway, keeping with your proposals, I think there's a couple more options/breakdowns:

4) Other Oracle options - after thinking about it I removed what I might have written up here; I don't think the timing works out to bother with something else on the Oracle - if it's not Metal Casting some other team probably will get it for Metal Casting, and it's not worth our time to try otherwise.

3a) Expand with military denial of land using our UU. This involves getting HBR out early enough, along with the boats, and then if there's a sizeable landmass around, we take barb cities and/or use the Horse Archers to kill settling parties from other teams. (Really depends on what we see of course. But say there's a big continent we've got a glimpse of and several other teams also only have contact via galley - we'd surprise them/keep settling parties from successfully getting ashore. Or rather we'd do something smart like ally with one team, and only attack other teams not allied with us)

3b) Expand with traditional economic techs and tech trading.
Easy and simple, and I rather like it.

Maybe I do have some thoughts here after all, though we'll probably want a poll (it can't hurt to have new threads though, so don't worry about this one - we can keep it for ongoing strategy!). Currently I'm thinking

-Like going for the Colossus the old-fashioned way. Oracle is just too much of a detour + early production - we have a great island with a beautiful second city spot too, so we settle our island while we tech to the Colossus, all our early production goes into settlers/workers/boats/etc... just fine.

-Like going for flat-out expansion if we want, can't go too wrong by that.

-I still see Stonehenge as possible of course, and if anything other teams may be backing off of Stonehenge too....but now it just seems like it's in third place. We're hardly going to need culture on our home islands, great prophet points are meh, so overall just not feeling it so much. Sorry to disappoint though -but again it's still in the running and if you all still want it I'm onboard.

Edit: If we're keeping this as a strategy thread in general - current (turn 7) thoughts
-The only possible way I see CDZ moving up in score is by a tech - it wasn't pop or land -, so we've got to be able to figure out what they teched, right? Must be mining or mysticism for the vikings?
-I'd clearly move the warrior 2N, to make sure we miss nothing on the coast up there, and then straight SE after that. Anyway shouldn't be having barb troubles at all, get him to a fogbusting spot after until he's needed...
 
I think it is unlikely that we get colossus without going oracle, but I think we'd lose it before we invested much in the build. It wouldn't be harmful to poke at it and if you wanted to be a jerk a couple triremes would probably be a lot of fun on this map, especially if they got out early (in fact, oracling metal casting then building triremes instead of colossus could be a whole lot of fun). I'm just not sure about the value of colossus, especially if it turns out that the next island over has rivers.

I don't see 3a as much of an option. I've done good things with the carthaginian UU from time to time, but in general it is expensive to research and build and doesn't really strongly counter anything, especially in small numbers where the retreat bonus can't be used to full effect.


I still like stonehenge, like I said in the other thread, for the happiness in every city. I feel like the opportunity cost of it is pretty low as well. You lose ~a settler, but at the same time grow the capital to a pretty healthy size early. As I said in the other thread, ultimately as a charismatic leader you probably want monuments everywhere, it's just a question of whether you want to build them manually or with stonehenge. By your 4th city, stonehenge has broken even on hammers empire-wide while concentrating that production demand in a higher production city and given the capital something worthwhile to build while it grows early in order to make use of high value bonus squares.

The way I see it, there are no chokepoints or resources we are racing to grab with our first few cities. We will almost certianly fill our island up with 2-3 (I think 2, but 3 can be argued for) more cities then send a galley with a settler in it to build our first city on this other island. That's a key point in our development that we'll cross no matter what. Along those lines, we should look at options in terms of:
1. How soon do we get to that point.
2. What other things of value have we accomplished at that point.

From a researching point of view, building stonehenge is not much of a setback at all with mysticism costing something like 70 beakers. More importantly, I think growing our capital to size 5 by building stonehenge before we spend turns unable to grow building settlers/workers means that #1 is about the same for building stonehenge or going straight into settlers/workers after the workboat explorer. For #2, we've built stonehenge. Other paths up to that point might leave us with an earlier start dropping an explorer on that other island if we went for sailing and built a galley early (and a galley already built to ferry that settler across), a warrior or two and a granary if we went for pottery, or a more spread out population if we tried to spam out a couple settlers from a low pop capital (I'm not sure that has any value).

If I'm right that, without any pressure to rush to any choke point, growing the capital before churning out workers and settlers lets us build something without any downside, that just leaves the question of what to build while growing the city. Priesthood is too deep too spend the time building oracle. We could get sailing in time and build a galley. We could get pottery before too long and build a warrior or two (which would be well used) and a granary. We could get stonehenge or part of pyramids. Those are the options as I see them.
 
It's the risk of losing Stonehenge that I don't like given our situation, and the opportunity cost on city #2. That said if we really want to go for it - well we should probably have a poll for top options overall anyway, when we have a good number of gameplans to poll. Democracy at its finest I hope (I do hope more of the team is able to catch up/give input! I for one welcome everyone.)

I agree that losing the Colossus the "old-fashioned" way costs us little - if we were to build the Colossus, we'd probably be able to do so with zero lost production, cause it would be chopped in one turn or something, so either we get it - or someone beat us turns before and we haven't wasted time. So if someone beat us to it, we'd just have the tech/a forge in the capital; we wouldn't have lost so much. MC as far as trade opportunities go depends on who we contact of course but it's not a lost cause. Losing an Oracle race is a different matter though imo.

But it's opportunity costs we're looking at here, and more and more of the map/metagame screams to me that sticking with less-flexible option isn't a good idea. Can't say whether there are "chokepoints" we'd need to worry about early, but if there are some "El Dorados" out there on other islands with a plethora of resources that could be crucial. But even early on there's a question of what we'd really need.

-Not getting Stonehenge means we could do something like get a second workboat, and then a settler at size 4; I of course agree we don't stunt growth before size 4, to work all the resources. But the worker doesn't catch up immediately anyway - and after 4 there's not as much urgency to grow higher right away imo; we'd grow after another settler/worker combo and build something like a granary.

-The second city, which I'd settle on plains hill by silver + wheat, would do well getting up as early as it can. It won't need a monument right away; won't hit happy cap for a long time anyway, but having it out 5-10 turns early is that much quicker we get it growing.

-Mysticism is not a sunk cost in tech, I certainly agree - but that's where I'm seeing early Metal Casting as less useful, except by the long-shot Oracle. Sailing of course is great to get ASAP, and I'd really do all we can to explore other landmasses.

Anyway, depending on if we find another coast route out there (as in, if there is another coastline reachable besides the Northeastern one) I'm shifting towards full exploration mode. Save all the forests for chopping one guaranteed and truly useful wonder like the GL later or something, get out and claim the land early.
 
Wow so many different paths. The two more popular ones seem to be continue with Stonehenge or a fast expansion. The happiness/heathiness argument, however, has me leaning towards the expansion path. But I'm not sure about it at this point. I hope others will chime in with their thoughts. :)

What would be an interesting map design is if the six teams all have an island like ours but around one giant continent- sort of like a sailing ship's wheel and our starts are the spokes.
 
If we go exploration/expansion, which I feel is the only other strong option next to building stonehenge, we should probably try and get sailing next and build a galley. Spending hammers on another workboat to buy time to growth doesn't feel strong by itself, I'd much rather go galley, or warrior -> galley if that's the timing. We'd want to get a land unit onto that next island and see if it is an el dorado situation.

I don't see that going for stonehenge has gotten any more risky than before. If anything, it's a bit less risky assuming everyone is on these little forested islands, since the culture bump has become less important team amazon are the only people who have a decent reason to compete for it. Furthermore, with these really contrived islands it seems like there is a good chance that diverse happiness resources won't be available so the payoff is a little better for a charismatic leader (although, that could mean it has gotten more risky if amazon feels the same way they may go after it harder).


I think it is pretty likely that is the map situation regentman. I would even take it a step further and say that, with 5 other islands similar to ours out there, most of the luxury and food resources are covered by those islands (and only those islands, probably) to be traded for. The amount of forest on the island doesn't really leave any room for strategic resources (I think that plains hill in the center probably has copper, maybe a horse somewhere, maybe not). That means all the strategic resources and stone/marble would be present on the center island to be fought over.
 
We should vote on it soon, decision time comes as soon as we finish agriculture really.
 
Yeah, we should vote on it, because definitely it will influence what to tech next after agriculture.

Just teching sailing next does work, (bronze working after that probably). I don't know if I'd invest in a full galley but it is possible, and not too much more than another workboat (Having two boats out that can go two different ways is really valuable; especially if the galley is ferrying units then we still need a "long-distance explorer.") Or we could partially build the galley and at size 4 build a settler, then finish the galley or something like that too. Again, IF we decide to settle the second city at the wheat+silver - getting it up earlier just gives up that many more turns of solid production/commerce.

Again, I don't see Stonehenge as specifically bad right now, and I know the fun factor in getting and using a wonder to great effect. I'm just in more of an expansion camp with this island situation going on - not trying to propose other crazy wonder builds but just clean and rapid exploration and expansion. But we should have a team decision; putting up a poll later today couldn't hurt.
 
Having had a chance to fully review the turns played thus far, I'm leaning towards expansion over a wonder. Are we looking at 3 or 4 cities on this island? Should our 3rd city be on the second island? Are we going to chop or whip?
 
I would still go for Stonehenge, as the monuments are by far the biggest gameshifter for our civ both on traits and other aspects. Centering the map is really a big one in this game, and we may need early culture for coastal cities in order to grab outlying fish.

We should really stick to the original plan, Stonehenge.
 
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