Over the Reich - Creation Thread

[JPetroski]

I found that A2A rockets seem to be pretty good at destroying urban targets. Do you want me to change them so that they can only damage air units?

Yes please. While you're at it, the light guns, medium guns, heavy guns, and hispanos also should be changed to this as they are pretty good at finishing off targets. We have plenty of jabo aircraft for attacking ground units and this will be one more reason to build them.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I have the events.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Here's the "tileLookup error. Improvement 29 doesn't refer to an actual tile for Tours. If you tell me what the coordinates should be, I'll make the fix.

-- Defines coordinates near each city that are linked to the construction of specific improvements in that city
-- ID numbers are used for table keys so we don't have to worry about renamed cities or improvements
--[[ structure by Knighttime ]]
local cityCoordinates = {

Line 1625

--[[ Tours ]] [37] = {[15] = {{162,114}}, [6] = {{159,123}}, [5] = {{162,118}}, [4] = {{162,116}, {164,116}}, [25] = {{165,111}},
[16] = {{164,114}}, [12] = {{166,124}}, [10] = {{163,119}}, [11] = {{160,118}, {161,119}},
[29] = {{165,122}}, [26] = {{169,121}}, [22] = {{164,120}}, [14] = {{164,118}, {162,120}} },

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Yes please. While you're at it, the light guns, medium guns, heavy guns, and hispanos also should be changed to this as they are pretty good at finishing off targets. We have plenty of jabo aircraft for attacking ground units and this will be one more reason to build them.

Should these be able to attack flak batteries and other such units? If they can't that could create some problems, especially on the night map, where Bombers can attack flak but not planes, and fighters can attack planes, but not flak.

 

[JPetroski]

I think you're referring to an older bug I reported and not a current bug you found, correct?

If so, I think I fixed it. I had two improvements sharing the same tile, so I changed the aircraft factory to something out of the way.

It should be good now unless I'm missing something.

 

[JPetroski]

Should these be able to attack flak batteries and other such units? If they can't that could create some problems, especially on the night map, where Bombers can attack flak but not planes, and fighters can attack planes, but not flak.

I'm fine with them attacking flak, I just don't think they should be able to attack the strategic targets.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I think you're referring to an older bug I reported and not a current bug you found, correct?

If so, I think I fixed it. I had two improvements sharing the same tile, so I changed the aircraft factory to something out of the way.

It should be good now unless I'm missing something.

I'm talking about the message

ERROR: failed to find valid map tile when populating "tileLookup" for 165,122,1

This happens because you have tile coordinates of {165,122}, which are not valid coordinates. See my earlier message for more details and let me know what the fix is.

 

[JPetroski]

This happens because you have tile coordinates of {165,122}, which are not valid coordinates. See my earlier message for more details and let me know what the fix is.

Sorry, misread you. Please change it to 165,119

 

[JPetroski]

I've made some progress on the readme. I took out the part about the port capture giving the Allies 3x reinforcements as I believe we are getting rid of that mechanism (or at least getting rid of the "sabotage port" mechanism to prevent it?)

I have a question for you on game mechanics. Do you know what effect the tech rate has on progress? Right now, the tech rate is set at 75, and testing confirms that with a reasonable build up, if one were to max towards science (which may or may not be plausible with enemy interference), the German player can reasonably expect to get jet fighters in the mid-40 turns and the Allies can get the P-51B during this time too.

I think with 125 turns, this is really too early. I could add in a few "filler" advances but I think I'd rather just increase the tech rate. The question is to what. It's a very time-consuming thing to playtest because it requires building up (in a natural way) to see when things could really unlock.

Is it as simple as making it 150would double the time it currently takes? If so, I might increase it to, say 125.

I know you know a lot about the game mechanics and just curious if you have any advice to get these techs showing up in the 60-s--70s range rather than 40s.

Edit - I tried changing it to 125 and here's the initial rates at least, at 80% science (which is unsustainable until fuel refineries are invested in):

75 Tech paradigm: Allies techs every 4 turns, Germans techs every 2 turns
125 Tech paradigm: Allies techs every 6 turns, Germans techs every 3 turns

I'm not sure how this will hold up over time or as more techs are researched.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I have a question for you on game mechanics. Do you know what effect the tech rate has on progress? Right now, the tech rate is set at 75, and testing confirms that with a reasonable build up, if one were to max towards science (which may or may not be plausible with enemy interference), the German player can reasonably expect to get jet fighters in the mid-40 turns and the Allies can get the P-51B during this time too.

I don't know what the tech paradigm in the Rules.txt does, but the one in the Scenario Options should multiply tech costs by paradigm/10, meaning that 10 is normal tech progression.

However, Tech costs are going to increase, and increase substantially from the base at the start of the game. There is a jump at 20 or 21 techs, and there is also the "Key Civ" penalty, which will apply in full force, since neither of our tribes has a key civ. I don't have time now to look up the tech cost.

If the problem is that all techs are researched by ~turn 40, then increasing the tech paradigm is a reasonable solution. If the trouble is that a bee line can be made for certain valuable technologies, then maybe we want to "enable tech groups" to allow more advanced technology only after a broad range of techs have been discovered.

Or, we insert some "Own X technology for 10 turns" techs, that are given after a technology is owned for 10 turns, and so slows down progression along specific paths. I don't know if there are spare technology slots for this.

 

[JPetroski]

I took a stab at refining the tech tree a bit this morning. Specifically, I added 3 more steps to get the Mustang:

You get the "Need for Long Range Escorts" tech after our mechanism of having your bombers shot down.
You are able to start researching:
1. Search for Suitable Airframe
2. The Allison-Powered Mustang
3. Rolls-Royce Merlin 61 Retrofit

Then Cadillac of the Skies (which also still requires Escort Fighters III).

Theoretically this would only add 6-10 turns, but if the Allies want to beeline for it, they're going to miss some units that they need to have a balanced force (such as better strat bombers, and better Jabo for their invasion).

As for the Germans (well, Allies too though I don't see why the Allies would really want to focus on jets given their objectives):

I didn't like how you basically HAD to research all the good propeller aircraft to get to the jets, which was the way I had it set up (where Engines IV eventually led to jets). Now, there is a distinct break after Engines II where one would focus on mass production (which will lead towards the Fw190D9 and Ta152) or high-technology (which will lead towards jets). Each path requires political support.

If you go for high technology, you still have to research Experimental design, Centrifugal Force Engines, and Axial Flow Compressors as before, but you must also now make an (1) Argument for Jet Fighter Focus, get political support IV and then (2) Prioritize Jet Fighters which then leads to (3) Jet Fighter Experiments, which eventually ties in to the engine works to bring you jet fighters.

All the time you're doing this is time you can't spend working on traditional fighters that are more immediately available, so you now really need to make a choice.

Also, I've added in the Volksjager so the He162 actually comes after the Me262, but is cheaper to build in case you find that your prioritization of jets left you with too few aircraft in the skies.

I've added this to rules but still need to change the describe text for the pedia.

My plan for this week is to focus on running a stress test with a slightly increased tech paradigm and these changes to see if things land where I want them. There will be pretty optimal conditions but the only thing I'm going to do each turn is try to build up industry/move ships and freight trains to do so. My conditions will be to see how fast I can finish the tech tree without going so low on fuel that I couldn't fly operationally. This will be very thrilling stuff but I think it's important before we begin our match. I should be able to move through it fairly quickly.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Theoretically this would only add 6-10 turns, but if the Allies want to beeline for it, they're going to miss some units that they need to have a balanced force (such as better strat bombers, and better Jabo for their invasion).

But it will take just as long to research everything you need. Either they'll still research it first, or they'll research it last if the extra cost makes getting something else first more appealing. Maybe what we want is spontaneous developments. For example, If you have Jabo I and Engines II, then each Hurricane IV or JU87G in service gives, say, a 1% chance per turn of getting Jabo II for free. You could still tech straight for Jabo II, but that means you'll pay for the research rather than get it for free.

This would basically represent getting feedback from experience in the field, rather than trying to do everything theoretically and hoping for the best. I presume that in practice, research on various weapons systems were done simultaneously, rather than in sequence. This sort of thing (or getting free techs after a delay) would do a better job of representing that.

I still have the events and hope to do more work on them this evening.

 

[JPetroski]

But it will take just as long to research everything you need. Either they'll still research it first, or they'll research it last if the extra cost makes getting something else first more appealing. Maybe what we want is spontaneous developments. For example, If you have Jabo I and Engines II, then each Hurricane IV or JU87G in service gives, say, a 1% chance per turn of getting Jabo II for free. You could still tech straight for Jabo II, but that means you'll pay for the research rather than get it for free.

This would basically represent getting feedback from experience in the field, rather than trying to do everything theoretically and hoping for the best. I presume that in practice, research on various weapons systems were done simultaneously, rather than in sequence. This sort of thing (or getting free techs after a delay) would do a better job of representing that.

Your idea is innovative and seems like a cool way of doing things but from a scenario design perspective I'm concerned about playtesting and balancing it for one, and secondly I think it is scope creep where we both need to wrap this one up. I think we've pretty well cornered the "innovative design" market on this one and should hold the title for a little while at least so I don't know that we need to add this too. I'm really hoping for a match to start soon.

I guess the way I'm looking at it is this: Right now the scenario is 125 turns but we may well find that you were right all along and 100 is correct. If its is, getting these key techs in the 40-turn range is problematic. Getting it in the 60 turn range is probably ideal so you still have time to play with them. We are very close already to achieving this, and I'll bet a slight paradigm adjustment plus the 3 extra techs will cut it without the need for other measures.

For the Germans, I'm convinced that the approach above was probably needed just because there was no "harm" in beelining for jets. Now there is. While I did take advantage of the opportunity to lengthen the path by adding in 3 techs, the bigger deal, IMO, is that going for jets might compromise your whole defense system given that they are so much more expensive to build than traditional fighters. But, having played with them in our first playtest, I can say they are powerful indeed and potentially worth it.

I could be convinced if your heart is set on it, but I think we should keep it simple, finish this project, and get some youtube videos of us playing it up so I can try to sell the folks over at hitechcreations.com on ToTPP (if there was a flight sim that has the kind of audience that would appreciate Civ2, it is Aces High).

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Events are available.

Changelog:


Formation bug fixed. Turned out the problem was a typo and not an oversight.

Anit-aircraft munitions are not effective against strategic targets. Here is the list, which can be modified.

-- AAMunitions are munitions primarily used against air units
-- These munitions do no damage against unit types in the
-- AAInvulnerableTable
local AAMunitionsTable = {}
AAMunitionsTable[unitAliases.Hispanos.id]=true
AAMunitionsTable[unitAliases.A2ARockets.id] = true
AAMunitionsTable[unitAliases.FiftyCal.id]=true
AAMunitionsTable[unitAliases.ThirtyMM.id]=true
AAMunitionsTable[unitAliases.TwentyMM.id]=true
AAMunitionsTable[unitAliases.Flak.id] = true
local AAInvulnerableTable = {}
-- by default, AAInvulnerableTable is the same as stratTargetTable,
-- but this can be modified if necessary
for __,unitType in pairs(stratTargetTable) do
AAInvulnerableTable[unitType.id]=true
end

Messages are also displayed when a munition is ineffective, either because it can't damage at all, or because the battle group is already sufficiently damaged.


Moved the turn 1, 2, 3, 13 events for the Allies from the On Turn trigger to the afterProduction event, to match the Germans.

textAliases.firstTurn1 and textAliases.firstTurn2 also displayed to the Germans. The music is played after these first two messages.

First three turns of messages added to archives. Moved the first three turns of messages to the 'top' of afterProduction, so that the messages (especially the dedication) appear before other things, like the first set of reinforcements.

civ.playSound events replaced with playMusic events, so that the music doesn't overlap with the game music.

Your idea is innovative and seems like a cool way of doing things but from a scenario design perspective I'm concerned about playtesting and balancing it for one, and secondly I think it is scope creep where we both need to wrap this one up. I think we've pretty well cornered the "innovative design" market on this one and should hold the title for a little while at least so I don't know that we need to add this too. I'm really hoping for a match to start soon.

I guess you are right. It seems that I've replaced "one more turn" syndrome with "one more feature" syndrome.

I think we are basically at the point where we can start a playtest. Any further changes to the events shouldn't break anything, so they can be made as we discover the need.

I never changed trainlifts to require a port connection after invasion. Do you want that, or something similar?

Also, I haven't gone through and found every possible text that should have an 'add to archive' attached to it. You're much more familiar with the text boxes than I am, so if you want to do that, you can. The function template is
text.addToArchive(tribe or TribeID,messageBody,messageTitle,archiveTitle)

You can check the examples with the first 3 turns of messages that I did, which will probably be more clear. Or, just leave a comment
--ARCHIVE
--Tribe,messageTitle,archiveTitle
after the text box event, and I'll go through and actually add the archive.

If you want to upload the full scenario when you have it, then I'll copy it and we'll start the game. We'll just pass the event file modifications back and forth until we're fairly confident that it doesn't need further changes, and then we can "release" it properly.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Just realized that I'll have to make counters for air unit kills, for the experten event. That'll probably impact the game enough that we shouldn't start playing until after I do that. I'll probably make the change Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

[JPetroski]

I went through a "playtest" with 125 tech paradigm. It takes the Allies 63 turns to get to the Mustang if they beeline for it after getting all their economy/production techs.

The Germans got to jets considerably quicker so I added in a need to get diverted to jabos first (pretty accurate to what happened) and also swapped tech slots as I had one in the philosophy slot which didn't help.

Even so, I think when playing against a real human, my conditions are pretty unrealistic. First of all, German would not be able to build up very effectively with its cities being knocked down. Secondly, it's unlikely that they could afford to max science the whole game with the need to launch costly air operations.

I think I'm going to scale the paradigm down to 100 for our test (between 75 where I started and 125 where I just tested) and we'll just see how it goes under real life conditions.

 

[JPetroski]

For the German Points System please make it so:

-Fighters (including P-38s) will grant 1 point.
-Tactical Bombers (A20, B26, A26) give 2 points
-Destroying a Sterling, Halifax, Lancaster, or B-24 gives 3 points
-Damaging a B-17F or B-17G gives 2 points
-Destroying the damaged B-17F/B-17G gives 1 point

Please have an event that pops for the German player the first time they kill anything that has a text box I can edit to give some historical flavor around this. I have to run but I'll write the text box later.

 

[JPetroski]

Assuming that this is a brand new function, thus I can "reuse" special numbers:

Egon Mayer should show up at 50 points
h.w. Schnaufer at 200 points
*Josef Priller - given if Germans score 400 points
*Adolf Galland - given if Germans score 600 points and have jet aircraft tech.

All of these are in the events already but need to be moved to the new system.

The text that initially explains this:

Text1
"The Jagdflieger faced a wide variety of opponents across three fronts during the war. While the enormous victory tallies reported from the Russian Front were numerically impressive, it was generally agreed that Western pilots and aircraft were more challenging adversaries. The Luftwaffe High Command made an effort to officially recognize this and take it into account when awarding medals. On the Western Front, the destruction of different Allied aircraft earned pilots different "points." One point was awarded for the destruction of a single-engine fighter, and two points were awarded for destroying a twin-engine bomber. It was recognized that knocking the four-engine "heavies" out of the sky was a monumental task for any one pilot. Thus, the pilot who managed to knock the bomber out of formation was credited with a "separation" and earned 2 points. The pilot who finished off the cripple earned one point for its final destruction."

Text2
"The same points system is featured in Over the Reich, and it will be used to determine when many of the German "Experten" come online. Keep shooting down and destroying Allied aircraft, and various Experten will arrive to bolster your defenses."

 

[JPetroski]

If you can make the changes above, I'd say you can start your turn. Attached are all the files that I have.

I'll start a playtest thread for exchanging the saves and posting let's plays (though we should do that in a spoiler and have a gentleman's agreement not to look).

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I will probably begin the playtest later today.

Changelog:

formations.lua included in update, since I forgot to supply it before.

When flak is activated, map 0 is used as the "best" map for the next unit to be activated. The function customWeightFunction governs the choice of next unit.

Both Allies and Germans can see the number of allied bombers lost out of range.

The "GermanAircraftKills" counter increments if an aircraft (unit with domain 1) generated the munition that killed the other unit. This uses the same mechanism that generates veteran status for munition users.

Anything not on this list give 0 points

local aircraftPointValues = {
[unitAliases.SpitfireIX.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.SpitfireXII.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.SpitfireXIV.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.HurricaneIV.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.Typhoon.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.Tempest.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.Meteor.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.Beaufighter.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.MosquitoII.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.MosquitoXIII.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P47D11.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P47D25.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P47D40.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P38H.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P38J.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P38L.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P51B.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P51D.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.P80.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.Stirling.id] = 3,
[unitAliases.Halifax.id] = 3,
[unitAliases.Lancaster.id] = 3,
[unitAliases.Pathfinder.id] = 3,
[unitAliases.A20.id] = 2,
[unitAliases.B26.id] = 3,
[unitAliases.A26.id] = 2,
[unitAliases.B17F.id] = 2,
[unitAliases.B24J.id] = 3,
[unitAliases.B17G.id] = 2,
[unitAliases.RedTails.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.MedBombers.id] = 3,
[unitAliases.FifteenthAF.id] = 3,
[unitAliases.damagedB17F.id] = 1,
[unitAliases.damagedB17G.id] = 1,
}

Aircraft kill points now govern the acquisition of the 4 experten.

EDIT: Uploaded new events, which addition forbidding the construction of Red Army Groups (I believe they can't even be constructed on the Eastern Front, so I just forbid completely).

Commented out the "bomber increment" message.

Went through After production and unit killed, adding various messages to the
archives. Some messages, such as experten kills, will now be displayed to
both players, as well as archived.