Over The Reich JPetroski vs. Prof. Garfield

[Prof. Garfield]

Attacked port at Plymouth, but it survives. Down 2 beaufighters, a Stirling, and an A20.

I like the barrage balloon concept.

I made the barrage balloon react with a 20% chance of a kill (either kill or no damage), but added code so that only one barrage balloon will react. I spent a decent bit of time working on the old reaction code in the game, only to realize that we're now using the new reaction system instead... It might be time to remove 'dead' code when we spot it.

changes:

unitAliases.BarrageBalloons and unitAliases.BarrageBalloon added

Construction teams can't be built in size 1 cities
barrage balloons can be built anywhere (eliminated prototypes II restriction)
barrage balloons cost 30 shields instead of 300
barrage balloons can paradrop, so they can be deployed with radar
specialNumbers.barrageBalloonKillChance = 0.8 -- chance an attacked barrage balloon will be killed by a munition.
gave barrage balloon 6 reactions, since it will probably be killed anyway before that.

ri[unitAliases.BarrageBalloon.id] ={
reactionsPerTurn = 6,
killMunition = 10,-- if plane killed, do 4 damage to each munition
reactInsideCity=true,
low = {
{
targetTypes = reactionGroups.allAir,
maxDistance = 1,
hitChance = 0.2,
hitChanceCloud = 0.2,
damageSchedule = gen.makeThresholdTable({[0]=20})
},

},
climb = {

--Barrage Balloons only fires at low altitude


},
--
night = {
-- barrage balloons not on night map
},
}

Perhaps barrage balloons should only react once per turn. Otherwise, they might offer far too much protection to gun batteries and army groups. I was figuring that with an 80% chance to die in one hit, they should pose a hazard as long as they survive, but, that might be incorrect.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I'd rather not give the Allies another thing to research as I'm unsure if they can research what they have currently.

The real issue is that the A20s are far more useful than they should be. Perhaps we should use the 2nd prototype slot for some sort of ASW weapon (depth charge?) that Sunderlands get. Then, we make the bombs the A20s carry ineffective against U-Boats. Perhaps the B-24 gets the depth charge and can only fire it at low alt, but at substantially greater cost than the Sunderlands (I was thinking maybe if the Sunderlands costs 20, the B-24 could cost 100 so you really want Sunderlands).

If A20s aren't useful against U-Boats, I would not build as many of them and would keep only a few for certain targets.

Giving the B-24 depth charges as a secondary attack, and not allowing regular bombs to damage subs would probably solve the issue. It would take researching a tech to get the dual role aircraft, which gives Germany a little breathing room in the early game, but gives the Allies an option to win the Battle of the Atlantic with something that will be useful elsewhere, if they're struggling.

However, that may relegate the A-20 to it's former 'why bother' status, especially with barrage balloons defending targets now. It would also mean that hurricanes can't be used as carrier based ASW either, putting them further into the 'why bother' category. Perhaps we make it so that tactical bombers aren't subject to the barrage balloon reaction, and so can eliminate the barrage balloon safely?

 

[JPetroski]

A Fw190, Ju87, and, by the grace of God, He111 are all shot down over the Atlantic. 2x U-Boats are also destroyed.
Meanwhile, 3x Ju88Cs fall to Beaufighters.

 

[JPetroski]

However, that may relegate the A-20 to it's former 'why bother' status, especially with barrage balloons defending targets now. It would also mean that hurricanes can't be used as carrier based ASW either, putting them further into the 'why bother' category. Perhaps we make it so that tactical bombers aren't subject to the barrage balloon reaction, and so can eliminate the barrage balloon safely?

That could make sense. The balloons are cheap enough that I suspect you'll be filling your airfields with them, but on the other hand, since they only move 1 space I assume you won't be able to place more than a handful anywhere unless you're OK with the base not supporting any fighters of its own.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Downed a couple beaufighters and a stirling.

and, by the grace of God, He111

I know that feeling.

That could make sense. The balloons are cheap enough that I suspect you'll be filling your airfields with them, but on the other hand, since they only move 1 space I assume you won't be able to place more than a handful anywhere unless you're OK with the base not supporting any fighters of its own.

Yes, I think the real limiting factor for barrage balloons will be the support they draw from airfields. They'll as difficult to deploy as radar stations (except that radar stations also need a construction crew to build an installation tile. I gave them the paradrop ability so they can deploy with a new radar station.

I'm inclined to think that only airfields should be allowed to produce them, so that cities don't sit around producing dozens of them, but perhaps a city producing a radar set should get one for free as a sort of minimal defense for the station.

 

[JPetroski]

A fairly uneventful day - 1x Ju88C killed, Freiburg and some radar stations attacked but neither killed. A few U-Boats sunk.

I'm inclined to think that only airfields should be allowed to produce them, so that cities don't sit around producing dozens of them, but perhaps a city producing a radar set should get one for free as a sort of minimal defense for the station.

Agreed - it should keep them from getting out of hand.

I know that feeling.

How frequently are your attacks bringing bombers "to the brink?" I'm just curious if there should be some downside to the bomber going that bad. Maybe I need to revisit reactions so that heavy bombers have a very good chance of losing that amount of health from reactive attacks? So one would really need to consider if they should press forward or not with a critically wounded bird. But, if you could easily do this to the entire formation, maybe we're back at square one.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Downed a Stirling.

Barrage Balloons can only be built in airfields, and new radar stations come with a free barrage balloon also.

How frequently are your attacks bringing bombers "to the brink?" I'm just curious if there should be some downside to the bomber going that bad. Maybe I need to revisit reactions so that heavy bombers have a very good chance of losing that amount of health from reactive attacks? So one would really need to consider if they should press forward or not with a critically wounded bird. But, if you could easily do this to the entire formation, maybe we're back at square one.

It seems to take 2-3 hits to bring a bomber to the brink. It's enough so that I usually try to down the damaged plane rather than try to weaken multiple planes. I figure, perhaps incorrectly, that scoring a kill is more valuable than having 2 or 3 fewer bombs dropped. I remember at least one time where I declined to engage some B17s over the north sea (or at least broke off the attack very early), since I was unlikely to score a kill on a B17, but I would be leaving several fighters vulnerable to counter attack. At night, I'd rather attack a beaufighter than a stirling, but in daylight, it isn't so clear if I'd rather attack B17s or Spitfires. Perhaps that is just because you seem to keep your spitfires in larger groups.

 

[JPetroski]

We attack Freiburg, as well as destroy two ports (Nantes and another) and several U-Boats. We lose a B-17 to Mayer's reaction.

U-Boats are quite easy to kill in that all I need to do is take any unit and give it a go to command via dragging the mouse - the units path is interrupted by the presence of the sub. There's nothing we can do about this, but I wonder if "escape into the night" should also work for the subs, as there are several times where it takes two attacks to get them. If so, I'd argue they should escape a very far distance indeed (maybe 8 or 10 spaces) which would make it challenging to relocate them.

I am keeping an eye on reactions in general. They are pretty weak but this was done in response to how many units you had that would react in our last game. We might want to consider a mechanism where extra damage is given early in the scenario but reduced later, likely tied to the # of aircraft and 88mms the Germans possess. The idea being, during the stage where you're only defending with 1-3 planes and flak (now) the reaction should probably be stronger (maybe even double), but later on in the game, we want to weaken it so that pressing 'k' isn't an 'instant kill' for the first 5 or 6 units, like it was in the last game. I think what I have right now would work well for end game but it seems somewhat weak now.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

2 Stirlings downed, and a (damaged) convoy sunk.

U-Boats are quite easy to kill in that all I need to do is take any unit and give it a go to command via dragging the mouse - the units path is interrupted by the presence of the sub. There's nothing we can do about this, but I wonder if "escape into the night" should also work for the subs, as there are several times where it takes two attacks to get them. If so, I'd argue they should escape a very far distance indeed (maybe 8 or 10 spaces) which would make it challenging to relocate them.

I don't think it would matter too much, since the sub will still be visible on the map after it is moved. With the aircraft, it doesn't matter so much, since moving a few spaces often means the fighter can't make a second attack. This might be more of a make the players aware of this, so Germans can change tactics.

I am keeping an eye on reactions in general. They are pretty weak but this was done in response to how many units you had that would react in our last game. We might want to consider a mechanism where extra damage is given early in the scenario but reduced later, likely tied to the # of aircraft and 88mms the Germans possess. The idea being, during the stage where you're only defending with 1-3 planes and flak (now) the reaction should probably be stronger (maybe even double), but later on in the game, we want to weaken it so that pressing 'k' isn't an 'instant kill' for the first 5 or 6 units, like it was in the last game. I think what I have right now would work well for end game but it seems somewhat weak now.

It does feel like the pendulum has swung too far in the favour of the Allies with respect to the air war. I knew a massive attack was coming in Western France, since I scouted the airfield, but I couldn't move enough units in time, and the few that do make it have a hard time getting kills and risk getting chewed up by the B17s if they press their attack after the first reaction. And now, there is also an attack near the Netherlands. It also feels like it is just harder to damage units this time. With more units making it home, I guess there are more veterans out there, and it is harder for my units to become veterans in the first place.

I don't really like the idea of changing the capabilities of unit reactions over time, though it would be doable, and I suppose it could work. I think the unit price changes on top of the various nerfs to fighters and flak went a bit far, and have started the Allied 'snowball' far sooner than expected.

 

[JPetroski]

Let's pause for a moment and chat given I think we're both in agreement that some tweaks are needed. I think we should probably move forward with having the Sunderland carry depth charges and U-Boats can no longer be attacked by bombs. If, for a final release, this moves the Hurricane to a "why bother" unit, maybe we just remove it and start the Allies with Typhoons as their first fighter bomber. The hurricane is already a "why bother" unit, anyway. I do think allowing Liberators to also have depth charges as a secondary--but costly--attack makes sense. They were actually used extensively in this role whereas A20s, to my knowledge, were not.

I think the unit price changes on top of the various nerfs to fighters and flak went a bit far, and have started the Allied 'snowball' far sooner than expected.

I haven't built many units but have qualified for the reinforcements that I failed to last time. This, coupled with the fact that they don't die nearly as easily means I have more stuff to work with, so I'm not sure that the pricing change for the most part is what is driving this -- yet.

The big problem (which I've received only a small taste of) is that you are hardly knocking down *any* bombers (1-2 per turn). Is it maybe too hard to get past the final hurdle for 'hard to kill'? Is that something that is adjustable? I am glad it is there as I didn't like how 20-30 bombers would get shot down every turn, but 1-2 is too few for you not to be swamped as soon as I start mass producing them. I see a few options:

1. Increase the number of bombers that you can kill by reducing the hard to kill mechanism somewhat;
2. Decrease the effectiveness of bombers attacking with a sliver of damage. We somewhat do this, given they get fewer bombs, but perhaps they should get no bombs;
3. Leave it as is, if we find that stacked flak and fighter reactions wipe out wounded aircraft;
4. Maybe certain munitions don't trigger hard to kill. Maybe the Experten (who by the way, have the wrong munition apparently - I noticed when I checked this, but should now fire heavy guns) and Aces munition (now, unit 77 or heavy guns) doesn't trigger hard to kill? This would make these units a heck of a lot more useful.

I'm inclined to try #4 as it appears to be the easiest fix and would also allow us to test #3 without going crazy elsewhere.

I do think the beaufighters can go back up in price a bit because with survivable bombers it's not as critical to whittle down your units and they are quick to replace. We did give the Allies many more Spitfires to prevent the Germans from establishing air superiority over southern England at the start of the scenario, but these have very limited range (60 over 3 turns).

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Let's pause for a moment and chat given I think we're both in agreement that some tweaks are needed. I think we should probably move forward with having the Sunderland carry depth charges and U-Boats can no longer be attacked by bombs.

I do think allowing Liberators to also have depth charges as a secondary--but costly--attack makes sense. They were actually used extensively in this role whereas A20s, to my knowledge, were not.

I agree. I'll change the events once we have rules/art for the depth charge. I think it is a decent compromise. Sunderlands can only be produced in a couple airfields before strategic bombers II, but I don't know how much of a restriction that is, since they are not exactly a unit needed in massive quantities anyway. Perhaps, we should reduce the price of the Sunderland, but only allow it to be built in an airfield disconnected from the rail network, but next to an aircraft factory tile. If the player really needs a lot of Sunderlands before strategic bombers II, they can disband other aircraft, I guess.

If, for a final release, this moves the Hurricane to a "why bother" unit, maybe we just remove it and start the Allies with Typhoons as their first fighter bomber. The hurricane is already a "why bother" unit, anyway.

The problem is that the hurricane can only act as a fighter at low altitude, so it is basically useless in its fighter role. It can only attack other fighter-bombers, but it is fairly unusual to both need Jabo capability yourself, and to defend against it at the same time, and the hurricane is a rather weak bomber. If it could climb to high altitude, it might be useful, if for no other reason than to farm vet status for the more powerful fighter bombers.

It seems a bit of a shame to ditch a prominent Battle of Britain airplane, but I suppose the scenario starts a couple years afterward. I think it could still be useful for the Allies to have the ability to bomb from a carrier (at least as an option, even if they don't usually exercise it), but maybe with tactical bomber increased range, this isn't even necessary.

I haven't built many units but have qualified for the reinforcements that I failed to last time. This, coupled with the fact that they don't die nearly as easily means I have more stuff to work with, so I'm not sure that the pricing change for the most part is what is driving this -- yet.

That makes sense. We should probably leave the reinforcements in place, for now, and deal with the low kill rate.

The big problem (which I've received only a small taste of) is that you are hardly knocking down *any* bombers (1-2 per turn). Is it maybe too hard to get past the final hurdle for 'hard to kill'? Is that something that is adjustable? I am glad it is there as I didn't like how 20-30 bombers would get shot down every turn, but 1-2 is too few for you not to be swamped as soon as I start mass producing them. I see a few options:

Hard to kill is adjustable, both in general and for specific aircraft. Search for defaultSurvivalChance.

1. Increase the number of bombers that you can kill by reducing the hard to kill mechanism somewhat;

Currently, a unit that is hard to kill has an 80% chance of surviving combat, assuming the munition can even 'kill' it in the first place. Maybe we need to reduce this to something like 66%? At the moment, all planes use the default chance of 80%, but the chance can actually be customized per plane type. So perhaps later planes can have an increased survival chance?

2. Decrease the effectiveness of bombers attacking with a sliver of damage. We somewhat do this, given they get fewer bombs, but perhaps they should get no bombs;
3. Leave it as is, if we find that stacked flak and fighter reactions wipe out wounded aircraft;

I'm inclined to think that the heavily damaged aircraft should at least have the option of attacking. I imagine it would still be somewhat disheartening to have to turn back from an attack since all your bombers were brought down to 3 hp.

4. Maybe certain munitions don't trigger hard to kill. Maybe the Experten (who by the way, have the wrong munition apparently - I noticed when I checked this, but should now fire heavy guns) and Aces munition (now, unit 77 or heavy guns) doesn't trigger hard to kill? This would make these units a heck of a lot more useful.

That can be done, as long as they have a munition that no one else fires (or we're comfortable ignoring hard to kill for anything else firing it).

I'm inclined to try #4 as it appears to be the easiest fix and would also allow us to test #3 without going crazy elsewhere.

This is fine, but I think that Germany would need to receive a handful of generic experten fairly early in the game. Maybe 2 on the day map and one at night. (Or, perhaps, none at night, which goes along with the safety of the night.) Perhaps with the first couple bomber kills. There is also an issue with the fact that I tend to use Experten over the Atlantic (mostly due to range), so having too many available might imbalance things a bit. On the other hand, killing 2-3 B17s is probably a better use than hunting a sunderland, which can also be killed by FW190s, so maybe it isn't an issue.

I do think the beaufighters can go back up in price a bit because with survivable bombers it's not as critical to whittle down your units and they are quick to replace. We did give the Allies many more Spitfires to prevent the Germans from establishing air superiority over southern England at the start of the scenario, but these have very limited range (60 over 3 turns).

I don't have a problem with the Allies starting with extra Spitfires, it makes sense. The issue, currently, is that it changes the calculus of pursuing a fleeing bomber. It's one thing to expose one or two planes to counterattack, if you know that you're probably going to down the bomber. It's another if the bomber will probably survive, but you'll also be exposed to defeat by cheaper units.

 

[JPetroski]

I have to run out but ill try and get the depth charge up and running no later than tomorrow morning. I think the 66% makes sense to try. 80% seems excessive.

As to the Hurricane, while this scenario starts in late May of 1942, about 1 year later there was precisely *1* squadron operating Hurricanes from the UK. So, I dont mind leaving it in of there's space, but to the extent we find we need something else, it would be a sensible target for replacement.

Edit - only aces and experten fire munitions 77.

 

[JPetroski]

I was able to sneak away and make a very rudimentary unit as well as the rules change. I didn't do anything with the events.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Changes:
default unit survival chance reduced from .8 to .66
unit type 77 ignores the unit survival chance, as do any units that are not munitions
Sunderlands now drop depth charges, and cost 20 fuel per attack (this was a suggestion you made earlier, feel free to change it back to 10)
B26 and A26s drop depth charges with the secondary attack, if they are over the Ocean, at a cost of 100 (as per your suggestion, feel free to change it)
The 3 bombs can't damage wolf packs, and depth charges can only damage wolf packs. Appropriate messages appear.

I didn't tweak the unit survival chances per individual unit, although it might make sense to do so, perhaps giving night units increased survivability. With the setup that I have, we could also tweak survivability according to other factors, if we really want to.

 

[JPetroski]

Sunderlands now drop depth charges, and cost 20 fuel per attack (this was a suggestion you made earlier, feel free to change it back to 10)
B26 and A26s drop depth charges with the secondary attack, if they are over the Ocean, at a cost of 100 (as per your suggestion, feel free to change it)

I changed Sunderlands back to 10 and removed depth charge from B26/A26 and gave to the B24J at 100 cost per attack.

As to the turn, heavy cloud cover forces me to switch to secondary targets in Holland, so I hit a factory. Wilhelmshaven attacked and I get it to a sliver but can't destroy it. Brest Port attacked but I can't destroy it. 1x Me110 is shot down.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Downed a spitfire and a B17, damaged another B17. Raid on Belfast doesn't manage to defeat an urban target.

 

[JPetroski]

1x military port, 1x urban center, 2x u-boats destroyed but I lose a freighter.

Just as an FYI I'm heading north to winterize the house tonight but will be back tomorrow evening, so no rush.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Downed 2 B17s, and a convoy. A couple more bombs fall on Belfast, but the urban target survives.

What was the reason for the British night fighters to have 40 movement points? Does that reason still exist? If you guessed Belfast was my target, then well done, but otherwise it seems like the British night defences are a bit too good with such high movement points.

 

[JPetroski]

3x subs killed. Wilhelmshaven attacked. 1x Urban target destroyed. Another brought to the brink. Friedrichshaven attacked.

What was the reason for the British night fighters to have 40 movement points? Does that reason still exist? If you guessed Belfast was my target, then well done, but otherwise it seems like the British night defences are a bit too good with such high movement points.

I didn't guess Belfast, but I was able to bring the fighters to bear from SW England when you announced the attack.
These are supposed to be intruder aircraft that roam far into Germany, so they have a high MP allowing them to do that. Maybe 40 is too high though? Then again, I didn't manage to kill any of your bombers (or even find the return stream, which I found odd). Further, moving 40 spaces to Ireland doesn't really help everywhere else they'd be more useful.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Downed 6 stirlings, 2 sunderlands.

We might want to raise the night bombers survival chance to 75%; the Stirlings near Wilhelmshaven seemed a bit too easy to kill. It would be a reasonable kill rate in the day time (since I did have a decent number of defenders close by), but I'm inclined to think that the night should offer slightly more protection.

I didn't guess Belfast, but I was able to bring the fighters to bear from SW England when you announced the attack.
These are supposed to be intruder aircraft that roam far into Germany, so they have a high MP allowing them to do that. Maybe 40 is too high though? Then again, I didn't manage to kill any of your bombers (or even find the return stream, which I found odd). Further, moving 40 spaces to Ireland doesn't really help everywhere else they'd be more useful.

I'm not concerned that that particular attack was intercepted, but a 40 movement fighter can 'protect' a huge area, and the Germans don't have comparable stuff at night (at least, I suppose, until Wilde Sau gives them day aircraft at night). I don't think it is necessarily game breaking, since Germany won't be making too many raids on England. If you want the allied night fighters to go far into Germany, may turns aloft makes sense, I'm just not too sure we should have such high movement per turn. It means that the Allies can make two or three separate attacks, and move their night fighters to counterattack whichever one offers the best opportunity, while the Germans can't similarly concentrate their forces. With less movement points per turn, the beaufighters and mosquitos would have to commit to defending a particular group of bombers.

If you want this kind of flexibility for night fighters, that's fine, but I noticed, and thought we should discuss.