Overcoming Ignorance - Immortal Gilgamesh

[Ignorant Teacher]

Hello CFC!

I'm confident it is time to slowly start getting rid of my ignorance if I'm ever to reach Deity. In order to do so, I'd like to ask for your help. I'll be playing a couple of games (or just one ) on Immortal hoping to learn from your advice. I don't think that only Immortal+ players are entitled to offer advice on a high level game. Of course, the game plays a lot differently on Immortal or Noble, but all opinions are welcome. I reserve my right to do as I please after I've heard all the advice.

If you want to shadow this, feel free to do so, just make sure your report is in spoilers and is clearly indicated as a shadow and has the date so that I don't accidentally open it before I reach that point myself.

For the first (or only) game, our leader is Gilgamesh of Sumeria. Perhaps the greatest advantage of playing as him is that he won't be your neighbor.



And this is the start:



It's a random Fractal map, Normal speed, huts and events are on, medium sea level and everything else random too.

There's a catch, though. Leaving a starting place for a day or two only delays getting on to the game itself and doesn't lead us necessarily to the best advice possible so I'll be playing the first ten turns before the debate itself starts. We'll have better maps and will have more to talk about.

I added spoilers to the rounds to make the pages load faster.
Round 1:The first 11 turns.
Round 2:Until 1440 BC..
Round 3:I won't lose my marbles!!!
Round 4:Overexpanding and trying to fix it.
Round 5:What should I do?
Round 6:Should I let him kiss my ring?
Round 7:Sumerian Domination

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

The first 11 turns

Spoiler :

I settled in place because I usually trust the map generator. Set research to Mining and then to Bronze Working. I started moving my warrior around my capital and, on the second turn , a hut brought us great luck.



I also popped two more huts for gold and just moved the warrior around. This is what we know from the world on turn 11:



I'm thinking of two cities already:

1- Fish / Corn city west of the capital. I like the forested plains 2S1E of the corn.

2- Corn / Gold / Floodplain city north of the capital. It should be founded on the desert 1SW of the gold.

So, what do you think? Where to settle? What to research?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'll shadow this...as a live stream.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

I play with increasing success on Emperor.

That fish/corn site is a solid choice - I'd be looking at it as a second or first city in your shoes. Need more exploration to determine best site to grab the gold. Working gold early can be a big boon to your economy.

Obviously when BW pops the presence of copper may change things. Vultures are sick units, you want to leverage them. If it pops in range of either of the city sites you have planned, make that your first. If none pops I wouldn't worry too much, but you will need archery. No livestock nearby, so gambling on AH is a bad idea. Plus, you are protective, so your archers get a boost. Drill 2 archers are descent against most of what the barbs will throw at you, and once they grab D3 they are pretty tough cookies.

Spawn busting should be easy, except vs galleys. Consider going GLH. Tough with a landlocked capital (and, ya know, Immortal) but a peninsula like this lends itself to lots of coastal cities. Or is it an island? Are you a a member of the lonely hearts club (band)? Both GLH effectiveness and strat resource settling priority are affected by this. Explore north aggressively.

 

[kossin]

Hard to say much, but this being Fractal you're either isolated or your 'neighbors' are north and possibly on another continent south.

With this in mind, GLH could be powerful here if you have overseas neighbors. Fish/corn would be best for this approach.

Otherwise, the gold site looks like it has better blocking potential, but farming fp's takes a while to provide food and the gold is on a desert hill -1 hammer +2 improving turns. At least there's corn so it's not a totally unproductive site.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Like others have mentioned, GLH seems like a good idea. I would farm Uruk's FP and some riverside grasslands instead of cottaging to get those workers and settlers out sooner. You are probably going to wind up moving the capital anyway. A bit more exploration is in order to see whether you're isolated.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm a little disappointed that you didn't settle 1S to get a 2H capitol. I even commented in my stream that I was pretty sure you'd do it too. My initial techpath decision was pottery ---> BW ---> archers if needed by turn 11 (IIRC I decided on the first 3 techs by about turn 3). You got pottery via hut which helps. I got like gold and a warrior or something X_X.

Pulling GLH w/o a coastal capitol is no gimme. There's always colossus if you really need it...and stone if you want certain other wonders...lots of choices for you here.

It's fun having played the game knowing ways this could turn out the same or differently!

 

[Windsor]

- Agree on Gold/floodplains. Explore there.
- Fish/corn-city. Use corn for a city north around the elelphant, then settle 2E of fish for moai (probably farm a GS first).
- I do like wonders on deity, but GLH is really a high-risk wonder. You may end up with it only worth 2/city, it is a wonder that goes incredibly fast sometimes and you'll need fishing, sailing and masonry. That's three techs which ain't a high priority. Your capital isn't coastal and your not organized(cheap lighthouse) or industrious. Also, if your not isolated then you'll need to claim land!

Research: Switch to hunting, worker goes corn, ivory, green hill, riverside hill, floodplain. After hunting I would go archery (your 2nd city is going to be quite far away), BW, maybe AH and then writing. After worker get another warrior, then an archer and then a settler. That gives you good protection in an pro-archer and the 2nd city up somewhat quick.

If there is a wonder you could consider it's the oracle. You have enough commerce to get to priesthood and since you already have pottery MC is a good choice. If you fail it's no big deal since priesthood also unlocks ziggurats.

 

[Windsor]

I couldn't resist, and started a shadow from 3560BC save (didn't even notice the initial save...) and followed my own advice:

Spoiler 3560-2320BC:

Spoiler :

As I said, I switched research to hunting and explored the gold/floodplain-site. I met this guy 2 turns later:

On turn13 indicates decent expansion room. And the next turn my warrior revealed this fantastic site

Now that is a priority to grab. Fresh corn, lots of river, coastal without many coast tiles and gold to pay for it.

Nothing much happened for a while. My initial warrior explored west and found a nice site before forifying in the woods. Build order in Uruk was as I suggested warrior(went straight north and fortified on a forested hill),then an archer (went straight to 2nd city-site), settler and then another archer(just finished).

BW was in 2640, no bronze around. Sury founded Judaism 2600 and 2560 Mehmed showed up.

2320 AH is discovered revealing horses, you can barely see it here:


I'm going to put 1 turn into the granary before switching to a settler. Yes, my cap is undefended but who cares?

I also founded Erindu this turn, I will switch build to archers. Worker is down in Uruk, will send him up to Erindu now. When I think about it, this city would probably be better 2N.


Finally the northwest:


I want to settle the deer-site and the sheep-corn asap. If I can get those two I have 4 really good cities. I have no idea where Sury and Mehmed are . Notice that I have set research to myst. Stonehenge didn't go before this turn(2320BC) so oracle - MC is tempting. Still, I find expansion to be #1 priority here. Haven't met many barbs but I'm still glad I went early archery.

 

[vicawoo]

- Agree on Gold/floodplains. Explore there.
- Fish/corn-city. Use corn for a city north around the elelphant, then settle 2E of fish for moai (probably farm a GS first).
- I do like wonders on deity, but GLH is really a high-risk wonder. You may end up with it only worth 2/city, it is a wonder that goes incredibly fast sometimes and you'll need fishing, sailing and masonry. That's three techs which ain't a high priority. Your capital isn't coastal and your not organized(cheap lighthouse) or industrious. Also, if your not isolated then you'll need to claim land!

Research: Switch to hunting, worker goes corn, ivory, green hill, riverside hill, floodplain. After hunting I would go archery (your 2nd city is going to be quite far away), BW, maybe AH and then writing. After worker get another warrior, then an archer and then a settler. That gives you good protection in an pro-archer and the 2nd city up somewhat quick.

If there is a wonder you could consider it's the oracle. You have enough commerce to get to priesthood and since you already have pottery MC is a good choice. If you fail it's no big deal since priesthood also unlocks ziggurats.

He's creative and it's emperor, I doubt he'll need archery. I don't like settling on plains elephants, you gain 1 hammer and lose a 1/3/2 tile, which is worth 50% more hammers when you're food limited.

 

[Windsor]

He's creative and it's emperor, I doubt he'll need archery.

Haha, I just glanced at IT's description and assumed deity =) The AI expansion did feel a bit slow for that to be true(score numbers, didn't see any AI cities and so on) and I wondered why the barbs appeared so late.

But the game is immortal, not emperor

About ivory. I like settling on ivory(unless financial), 1 free hammer is quite nice. Not having to use food and happy/health cap does count. The drawback is really loosing that floodplain and I don't really like moving my settler towards the coast.

 

[jihe]

He's creative and it's emperor, I doubt he'll need archery. I don't like settling on plains elephants, you gain 1 hammer and lose a 1/3/2 tile, which is worth 50% more hammers when you're food limited.

1/3/2 is not that great a tile, I'll settle on plains elephant everytime if the move does not lose food resources.

 

[Irgy]

I'm shadowing this game as well, more for my own learning than yours. I'll try not to play too far ahead of where you are. So far, I settled 1E because it didn't cost a turn and there was nothing worth keeping to the west. Otherwise everything the same, popped pottery and gold as well. I didn't send my warrior to the other hut, it might as a result get ninja'd but thems the breaks.

How many turns do you plan to play for the next set? Or you'll decide as you go? I'll play a few more but wait for your update to post anything past where you are.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Hard to say much, but this being Fractal you're either isolated or your 'neighbors' are north and possibly on another continent south.

I'm not isolated and my 'neighbors' are north. I'm not really sure where Suryavarman is, though.

Otherwise, the gold site looks like it has better blocking potential, but farming fp's takes a while to provide food and the gold is on a desert hill -1 hammer +2 improving turns. At least there's corn so it's not a totally unproductive site.

Nah, the city went somewhere else. As dirtyparrot also pointed out, more exploration was necessary.

I'm a little disappointed that you didn't settle 1S to get a 2H capitol. I even commented in my stream that I was pretty sure you'd do it too.

Yeah, I don't usually think that much before seeing the layout of the land. As there was the chance of another resource in the BFC, I thought in place made more sense.

Pulling GLH w/o a coastal capitol is no gimme. There's always colossus if you really need it...and stone if you want certain other wonders...lots of choices for you here.

Although the GLH is a very strong wonder, having Suryavarman and Mehmed as neighbors makes you want to rush your settlers instead of wonderspamming.

- Agree on Gold/floodplains. Explore there.
- Fish/corn-city. Use corn for a city north around the elelphant, then settle 2E of fish for moai (probably farm a GS first).

I agree with your fish city suggestion. I'm still not sure whether it will really be my Moai because there's another spot south of Uruk that is also a good candidate.

- I do like wonders on deity, but GLH is really a high-risk wonder. You may end up with it only worth 2/city, it is a wonder that goes incredibly fast sometimes and you'll need fishing, sailing and masonry. That's three techs which ain't a high priority. Your capital isn't coastal and your not organized(cheap lighthouse) or industrious. Also, if your not isolated then you'll need to claim land!

It's Immortal. Deity is a distant aim.

Research: Switch to hunting, worker goes corn, ivory, green hill, riverside hill, floodplain. After hunting I would go archery (your 2nd city is going to be quite far away), BW, maybe AH and then writing. After worker get another warrior, then an archer and then a settler. That gives you good protection in an pro-archer and the 2nd city up somewhat quick.

I switched the research to Hunting, then BW again. Improved corn, ellies, farmed FP then chopped.

If there is a wonder you could consider it's the oracle. You have enough commerce to get to priesthood and since you already have pottery MC is a good choice. If you fail it's no big deal since priesthood also unlocks ziggurats.

I'm considering the Oracle.

He's creative and it's emperor, I doubt he'll need archery. I don't like settling on plains elephants, you gain 1 hammer and lose a 1/3/2 tile, which is worth 50% more hammers when you're food limited.

It's Immortal. I changed the name of the thread to avoid further confusion.

I'm shadowing this game as well, more for my own learning than yours. I'll try not to play too far ahead of where you are.

Feel free to play it to the end if you like. Just remember to put all the information and dates on spoilers, like this:

Spoiler :

So far, I settled 1E because it didn't cost a turn and there was nothing worth keeping to the west. Otherwise everything the same, popped pottery and gold as well. I didn't send my warrior to the other hut, it might as a result get ninja'd but thems the breaks.

How many turns do you plan to play for the next set? Or you'll decide as you go? I'll play a few more but wait for your update to post anything past where you are.

I'll decide as I go. No need to wait for me.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Until 1440 BC

Spoiler :

Following Windsor's advice, I decided to research Hunting before finishing BW. After hunting, research was BW, Archery (no copper), Writing, Fishing, Mysticism, AH (horsies baby!) and started Polytheism to take a shot at the Oracle.

Two turns after I started playing, I was greeted by this lovely gentleman, who is certainly a mentally balanced leader and really capable of dealing with rejection:



A while later, I'm met by another lovely neighbor:



Suryavarmand also founded Judaism. I don't recall their peaceweights right now, but they must be close because they were pleased with each other right from the start. That's actually a good thing. Suryavarman is a crazy bastard, but he's also a zealot and he goes to friendly quickly once you share a religion and run Organized Religion (which is my favorite religious civic). Mehmed will not plot wars against you at pleased so, unless we get an early DoW or Mehmed decides to found Confucianism, there's going to be a love fest.

But Mehmed + Suryavarman are more than enough reasons to put off wonderspamming until you've secured a large chunk of land for yourself. I mean, look what I'm talking about. I get my settler to my favorite city site and then bam!



That made me change my plans a bit. After the first settler was built, I built two Archers, then a settler, then an archer and another settler. I've just started building more workers now. This is where I put my third city:



The barbs were kind enough to spare me the building of a settler, by founding Illinois right where I wanted another city. I'll delay opening borders with Mehmed until I've chariot rushed them.



This is the world as we know it:



And these are some places I want to settle:



I know, I know. It's not a great city site, but it has sheep and corn and it also blocks Mehmed completely, giving me more time to get that barb city. I really, really need to see if Suryavarman is to my west. If he is, all my blocking plans will have to be adapted. I'll send a Chariot over there after hooking up the horses.



A very nice production city: horses, ivory, fish and two plains hills. I might build Moai there. By what I've seen so far, I don't think I'll unlock Heroic Epic so soon, but it's also a good candidate for it.



My other Moai candidate. Once you chain irrigate it, this city will do a lot of heavy-lifting.



The barb city is in a prime spot. I'm not sure about the corn city, I'd like to hear what you folks have to say about it.

So, I think I have the following things to do:

1- Finish blocking Mehmed.
2- See if Suryavarman is to my west.
3- Rush the barbs.
4- Build more workers.
5- Open borders with our neighbors.
6- Send a workboat to see what it can find.

Any suggestions? Regarding techs, I think I'll finish Polytheism (things will go faster as soon as I start working the gold), then Priesthood to take a shot at the Oracle then what? The usual Aesthetics path?

 

[Windsor]

I know you got the first(not counting starting settler) settler out faster by chopping instead of mining, but you do pay for it now since your working 2x unimproved grassland forests

You settled Eridu right where I did. Guess you have the same obsession for settling coastal next to rivers like I do As I said in my spoiler, 2N would have been better, and you even knew about the marble before settling! Why on earth?

Regarding the sheep/corn site up north, do scout the tundra north-east before you settle, it will only take 3 turns. Maybe you change your mind and split the corn and the sheep. Just keep an eye open for Mehmeds settlers. And as you say, scouting northwest should be a priority. But Sury is probably to the east with Mehmed. Otherwise you would see more scouts and archers around.

Moai down south seems good. I would also settle a city on the stone to pick up the floodplains and more grassland hills.

Then the oracle. Why writing and fishing? You have no library and certainly no need for fishing at this moment! Priesthood could be in already!

I also dislike that you haven't grown Eridu to size2. I value mining the gold much higher than roading between cities.

I'm a bit uncertain about tech choice. You need poly for OR and oracle making great library more attractive, but aesthetics will be mostly for trading and there is only 2 civs to trade with.

Sorry if I seem harsh

 

[vicawoo]

Haha, I just glanced at IT's description and assumed deity =) The AI expansion did feel a bit slow for that to be true(score numbers, didn't see any AI cities and so on) and I wondered why the barbs appeared so late.

But the game is immortal, not emperor

About ivory. I like settling on ivory(unless financial), 1 free hammer is quite nice. Not having to use food and happy/health cap does count. The drawback is really loosing that floodplain and I don't really like moving my settler towards the coast.

Huh. I was playing it like it was emperor. That explains the tech rate. You still don't need archery. It's small enough to fogbust with 2-3 units, especially with creative cities.

The game: you're growing way too much. There's not much point in getting that 3rd city and 4th before another worker, considering your capital is working 2 unimproved tiles, your 2nd city has only 2 improvements, etc. The 3rd city is ok if you use it to completely seal off mehmed, but as it is it is a waste of maintenance.

Roads are overrated. If you improved a flood plains or built a cottage, you'd get just as much commerce bonus as your 11 worker turns of roads.

Fish horse city should go east of ne.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Build 1.5 workers/city.

As vicawoo says, roads are not as good as working improved tiles. After you have cap's worth of improved tiles, it is a good idea to road, and especially if doing so gets you 2 /city instead of 1. That's not the case here yet.

With the amount of land to block I chose to cottage most of it (building units until I had diplo situation under control) and head out to democracy before going to war, but a lot of players would go block ----> mids here and I definitely don't see anything wrong with that approach.

In the future, focus your scouting more in the direction of where you'll place to block (if blocking), because that's where you're obviously going to prioritize settlement and you want to know as much about the area as possible. In this case, you do NOT know the land NW of mehmed.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

I know you got the first(not counting starting settler) settler out faster by chopping instead of mining, but you do pay for it now since your working 2x unimproved grassland forests

They're unimproved because I built the road. Ok, the road was a mistake.

You settled Eridu right where I did. Guess you have the same obsession for settling coastal next to rivers like I do As I said in my spoiler, 2N would have been better, and you even knew about the marble before settling! Why on earth?

IIRC, 2N wouldn't give me a levee later. As much as I like the Oracle, I don't care enough about it to give up a levee to grab it.

Regarding the sheep/corn site up north, do scout the tundra north-east before you settle, it will only take 3 turns. Maybe you change your mind and split the corn and the sheep.

I will. Thanks.

Then the oracle. Why writing and fishing? You have no library and certainly no need for fishing at this moment! Priesthood could be in already!

You're right again!

I also dislike that you haven't grown Eridu to size2. I value mining the gold much higher than roading between cities.

I whipped an archer because there was a barb archer there then I built a worker. The road was built by the worker from Uruk.

Sorry if I seem harsh

Don't apologize. I prefer it that way. It's easier to learn when you have to think about criticism.

The game: you're growing way too much. There's not much point in getting that 3rd city and 4th before another worker, considering your capital is working 2 unimproved tiles, your 2nd city has only 2 improvements, etc. The 3rd city is ok if you use it to completely seal off mehmed, but as it is it is a waste of maintenance.

I have a worker on the ivory of Uruk and another one in the city that just got built. You can't see them in the screenshot, but they're there.

Roads are overrated. If you improved a flood plains or built a cottage, you'd get just as much commerce bonus as your 11 worker turns of roads.

I agree, the road was a mistake.

Fish horse city should go east of ne.

Should go where?

Build 1.5 workers/city.

At the moment, I have 1.33 / city. In 4 turns, I'll have 1.66 / city (but then I'll have another city, so I'll actually have 1.25 / city so I'll have to build more).

With the amount of land to block I chose to cottage most of it (building units until I had diplo situation under control) and head out to democracy before going to war, but a lot of players would go block ----> mids here and I definitely don't see anything wrong with that approach.

I still haven't made up my mind about it yet. Both have their pros and cons. I have only 3 happiness sources so Rep could make me smaller, but I can trade for more and it's possible that there are more happy resources that I haven't found yet.

In the future, focus your scouting more in the direction of where you'll place to block (if blocking), because that's where you're obviously going to prioritize settlement and you want to know as much about the area as possible. In this case, you do NOT know the land NW of mehmed.

That's true. Thanks!

 

[Windsor]

Spoiler 2320BC-1440BC (have some info which isn't revealed in Ignorant Teachers 1440 save):

Spoiler :

I had looked at ITs report/save, but it I really don't think it affected my game at all. It's all pretty straight forward.

I put one turn into the granary as I said I would and started on a settler. Meanwhile my warriors and archers started exploring a bit more. And I soon found this site which would pick up marble, crab and block Mehmed, leaving me time for the oracle:


I considered more aggressive settling, but found that this would be just fine.

Found a warrior protecting a hut, my archer killed him at 80% odds, gave me 54 gold. I considered saving the hut, but feared Mehmeds archer would take it.


1760BC and the gold in Eridu is mined, and the settler from Uruk is on the way:


My exploring warrior died on a hill, only loss I have had:


1440BC I have explored and spawnbusted my territory. Don't have a dotmap for it


Uruk is still working on the Oracle, I messed up a bit sending workers all over the place. It will finish in 4 turns(chop), but it's already 1440BC, scary! Generally I like to finish it 1800BC, but let's pray:


Eridu, nothing much to say:


Kish, WB and a mine ready in 4 turns:


Units:


Plan now is to finish oracle, tech writing, masonry, and then aesthetics. I'm thinking parthenon in Eridu. Uruk is going to pump some workers and settlers before great library. 4th city will be fish/horse south of Uruk. Kish will build a library for scientists once wiriting is in, but my first GP will probably be a prophet.

I would like judaism to spread soon. I have a lot of infra to go up, ziggurats, forges(hopefully), libraries, granaries and lighthouses. I'm also worried about Mehmed declaring on me.