Mumpulus
King
I have just finished my turns in Mump3. I'll take this one immediately after I've created the new thread and posted my turns there. If I don't take it now, this will have to wait until Tuesday. Either way is fine by me.
Own8 5BC Defiant Standard Continents
- Thread starter Own
- Start date
Mumpulus
King
Ok, so now I actually checked the save, and I'm not going to play right now after all. Too many things to discuss. I'll arrange it so I can play the turns tomorrow night.
- Japan is the most cultured civ in the game right now. Holding on to captured towns will be difficult. Are we sure we want to risk this?
- Our fifth town hasn't been decided on. This is what I proposed earlier: "The one alternative I do see is 2NE of the wheat. Excellent starting terrain, [...]". I'd still go for that, and switch Trondheim to settler immediately.
- Then we need no more settlers, so Cow Town can start on the prebuild.
- I think the Chinese will be cornered by Japan any time now. The Chinese are much stronger, so I expect them to declare war. I'd wait for that to happen, wait a few turns extra to allow unit movement away from us, then jump on Japan too.
- When we get writing, I'd establish an embassy with Japan to know what's going on.
If we end up autorazing the iron town after establishing a town on the site you propose, we have a very insecure source of iron. We'd be declaring war on a regular basis to keep it as every AI would be settling in the area and wrecking our colony.
IMO we cannot talk about a fifth city anywhere else until we have claimed a town around that iron. If we have to build it ourselves, well that's our fifth city. If not, we should consider waiting a while to see what the flip chances are.
IMO we cannot talk about a fifth city anywhere else until we have claimed a town around that iron. If we have to build it ourselves, well that's our fifth city. If not, we should consider waiting a while to see what the flip chances are.
Fighting a deity AI with five cities sounds hard, but four sounds really hard. We have to found a fifth city, and I like Mumpulus's suggestion. We may have to abandon it and plant one by the iron, or capture the Japanese town and cash rush lots of culture in it.
Right now our priorities should be a settler, workers, raxes, military, prebuild, and workers.
Right now our priorities should be a settler, workers, raxes, military, prebuild, and workers.
Mumpulus
King
I would find founding and then abandoning not really in the spirit of the variant we want to play here. Furthermore, I think it's very wasteful.
But I agree with Own that we need that 5th town as soon as possible. So I would just found it. By the time we're ready to take the iron town, it will have grown and we can keep it. Then we'll just have to find a way to hold on to it. All part of the challenge
But I agree with Own that we need that 5th town as soon as possible. So I would just found it. By the time we're ready to take the iron town, it will have grown and we can keep it. Then we'll just have to find a way to hold on to it. All part of the challenge
You're right, 5BC is only building five cities. That would be wasteful, Mumpulus, you're right, so let's just found our fifth town somewhere then attack the japanese city once it's grown.Mumpulus
King
I have reread recent posts, and will start playing now.
Two unresolved issues I came across:
Two unresolved issues I came across:
-
I don't think this is implied by the variant rules (I just reread Arathorn's article). Furthermore, it implies a ROP rape, so I'm sure we don't want this. We could stipulate this as an additional rule for us, but then we'd have to make sure we never get a boot order, which is tricky I believe. I don't know the precise mechanics here. First they ask, then they order, but what happens if you haven't stepped on their territory for a while, does it reset? I don't know and I am too lazy to look it up.Tone said:
I got asked to leave by the Germans once already due to a boat (which leads to different AI behavior if I'm not mistaken). - I like Own's VC condition joke. I only got diplo wins a few times when I first started playing Civ3, and I lost my very first game on diplo when I decided to build the UN, but didn't know of the concepts of ROP-rape and all that, which I had sinned against all game long.
If we can keep some AIs friendly without investing too much, and are lucky enough to get some spontaneous AI-AI wars, it may be possible. I wouldn't risk anything for it though, any VC is fine by me (with conquest my favorite if diplo is impossible).
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
lurker's comment:
As long as the boat doesn't contain military units, you are asked to leave once only.
If it contains military units the AI treats it the same as when you enter their territory on land.
Mumpulus
King
0) 1500BC
Switch Trondheim to settler, Cow Town to prebuild.
IT
Mongols ask us to leave. Sure. They remain polite.
The Chinese are also building ToA, Romans the Oracle
1) 1475BC
Found Reykjavik, start worker. Second shield is corrupted, so work the horses for 1 additional gpt. Trondheim also MMed for extra commerce.
IT
We have boats in Chinese and Mongol waters, but no questions asked.
2) 1450BC
Copenhagen worker starts roading the game, Cow Town worker goes north of town to start road towards Reykjavik and wines.
IT
Trondheim: Settler > Spear
Kyoto finishes the Oracle, Berlin cascades to SoZ and finishes it
3) 1425BC
Settler and spear out of Trondheim towards last spot via Copenhagen, ETA 6 turns.
4) 1400BC
Nothing. I didn't keep track exactly when it happened, but Kagoshima is size 2 now.
IT
Writing > Lit in 24 at 90% and 0gpt
73g gets us an embassy in Kyoto:
Germans start GLight
5) 1375BC
The Japanese know the Chinese only. I do one more for 61g:
They also know only their own continent.
IT
Leipzig finishes Colossus.
6) 1350BC
Going to 100% now shaves off 2 turns at -1gpt, I do that, we have plenty of gold (227 right now).
IT
Trondheim: Spear > Archer
Romans and Zulu also start GLight
7) 1325BC
Far curragh finds an isthmus, goes in to take a look.
IT
Japanese warrior emerges from the northern fogs, and blocks our settling spot. That's the second time I loose a turn founding.
8) 1300BC
The isthmus separates an island from the other continent. Do an explorer turn with our settler.
IT
And here we go... The polite Zulu demand 30 of our 225 gold. And what do you know, they stay polite. How nice of them. But I think things are going to start heating up pretty soon now.
Mongols are also building GLight.
9) 1275BC
Settler into position, now in between two Japanese warriors.
IT
Now it's the annoyed Japanese who demand 30g. This'll turn out differently I think... No, it doesn't. How strange. Does no-one dare to fight us then?
Copenhagen: Barracks > Spear
Romans are building MoM
10) 1250BC
Found totally corrupt Oslo, start worker. It turns out there is no boot order option at all, I didn't know that. Wasted a turn for nothing earlier.
And done. Kagoshima is size 3 already, but the other Japanese towns we can see are all very small. They've got very bad lands as far as we can tell.
I'd keep Trondheim at size 2 or above to get at least 5spt, but do build workers out of it when at sufficient size. Cow Town is going on the prebuild full speed. I'd start working the forests upon growth. Hook up the wines asap. Not sure how we get to them best: colony or culture?
We are not at all ready for war. We need a lot more workers first. It's all going very slowly for now. I'd irrigate the two floodplains at Reykjavik quickly, to build workers there.
Switch Trondheim to settler, Cow Town to prebuild.
IT
Mongols ask us to leave. Sure. They remain polite.
The Chinese are also building ToA, Romans the Oracle
1) 1475BC
Found Reykjavik, start worker. Second shield is corrupted, so work the horses for 1 additional gpt. Trondheim also MMed for extra commerce.
IT
We have boats in Chinese and Mongol waters, but no questions asked.
2) 1450BC
Copenhagen worker starts roading the game, Cow Town worker goes north of town to start road towards Reykjavik and wines.
IT
Trondheim: Settler > Spear
Kyoto finishes the Oracle, Berlin cascades to SoZ and finishes it
3) 1425BC
Settler and spear out of Trondheim towards last spot via Copenhagen, ETA 6 turns.
4) 1400BC
Nothing. I didn't keep track exactly when it happened, but Kagoshima is size 2 now.
IT
Writing > Lit in 24 at 90% and 0gpt
73g gets us an embassy in Kyoto:
Germans start GLight
5) 1375BC
The Japanese know the Chinese only. I do one more for 61g:
They also know only their own continent.
IT
Leipzig finishes Colossus.
6) 1350BC
Going to 100% now shaves off 2 turns at -1gpt, I do that, we have plenty of gold (227 right now).
IT
Trondheim: Spear > Archer
Romans and Zulu also start GLight
7) 1325BC
Far curragh finds an isthmus, goes in to take a look.
IT
Japanese warrior emerges from the northern fogs, and blocks our settling spot. That's the second time I loose a turn founding.
8) 1300BC
The isthmus separates an island from the other continent. Do an explorer turn with our settler.
IT
And here we go... The polite Zulu demand 30 of our 225 gold. And what do you know, they stay polite. How nice of them. But I think things are going to start heating up pretty soon now.
Mongols are also building GLight.
9) 1275BC
Settler into position, now in between two Japanese warriors.
IT
Now it's the annoyed Japanese who demand 30g. This'll turn out differently I think... No, it doesn't. How strange. Does no-one dare to fight us then?
Copenhagen: Barracks > Spear
Romans are building MoM
10) 1250BC
Found totally corrupt Oslo, start worker. It turns out there is no boot order option at all, I didn't know that. Wasted a turn for nothing earlier.
And done. Kagoshima is size 3 already, but the other Japanese towns we can see are all very small. They've got very bad lands as far as we can tell.
I'd keep Trondheim at size 2 or above to get at least 5spt, but do build workers out of it when at sufficient size. Cow Town is going on the prebuild full speed. I'd start working the forests upon growth. Hook up the wines asap. Not sure how we get to them best: colony or culture?
We are not at all ready for war. We need a lot more workers first. It's all going very slowly for now. I'd irrigate the two floodplains at Reykjavik quickly, to build workers there.
Pre - turn- Trade ceremonial burial and 72 gold to the Aztecs for HBR. I do this for a few reasons. One being,
that they pose no threat to us whatsoever, so we don't need to hide the secrets of CB from them. Another is
that horsemen are much better than archers, and we want to attack Japan preferably before we have the GL
(it will probably happen anyway whether we like it or not). Lastly, we still have way more gold than we need
to max research lit without having to lower the science slider. MM looks good.
1. Trondheim grows, archer > archer. Reykjavik builds worker. Can't decide what to build next, temple
will get us wines, while we need archers and workers badly also. Since nothing I would build will finish before
my turnset ends, I say what the heck and build a temple. Cow Town grows, have it work forest as no two
food tile has a shied, so working a floodplain is pointless. Palace in 36.
2. Not much. Some AI's learn some techs, but mapstat won't tell me which ones.
3. Not much, some AI's are building MoM and ToA. Switch Trondheim from an off river mined BG to whale
as spear only needs six more shields and it was getting seven, and it gets us a coin.
4. Trondheim archer > archer. Move citizen back to mined BG from whale. For kicks, a couple turns earlier
I had a curragh go through ocean, and it sunk.
5. Copenhagen builds spear, starts on warrior, for 2nd MP as spear will go down to cow town.
6. Do same whale thing with Trondheim.
7. Trondheim archer > worker. Cow Town will waste one food when it grows, but I can't do anything about it.
8. Copenhagen warrior > horseman. Cow Town is about to riot, so I raise lux, only delays lit by a turn.
9. Trondheim worker > horseman.
10. Oslo worker > rax?
We're making good progress here. War with Japan should happen ASAP.
Roster-
Own- just played
Tone- up!
Mumpulus- on deck
plz join
''
''
that they pose no threat to us whatsoever, so we don't need to hide the secrets of CB from them. Another is
that horsemen are much better than archers, and we want to attack Japan preferably before we have the GL
(it will probably happen anyway whether we like it or not). Lastly, we still have way more gold than we need
to max research lit without having to lower the science slider. MM looks good.
1. Trondheim grows, archer > archer. Reykjavik builds worker. Can't decide what to build next, temple
will get us wines, while we need archers and workers badly also. Since nothing I would build will finish before
my turnset ends, I say what the heck and build a temple. Cow Town grows, have it work forest as no two
food tile has a shied, so working a floodplain is pointless. Palace in 36.
2. Not much. Some AI's learn some techs, but mapstat won't tell me which ones.
3. Not much, some AI's are building MoM and ToA. Switch Trondheim from an off river mined BG to whale
as spear only needs six more shields and it was getting seven, and it gets us a coin.
4. Trondheim archer > archer. Move citizen back to mined BG from whale. For kicks, a couple turns earlier
I had a curragh go through ocean, and it sunk.
5. Copenhagen builds spear, starts on warrior, for 2nd MP as spear will go down to cow town.
6. Do same whale thing with Trondheim.
7. Trondheim archer > worker. Cow Town will waste one food when it grows, but I can't do anything about it.
8. Copenhagen warrior > horseman. Cow Town is about to riot, so I raise lux, only delays lit by a turn.
9. Trondheim worker > horseman.
10. Oslo worker > rax?
We're making good progress here. War with Japan should happen ASAP.
Roster-
Own- just played
Tone- up!
Mumpulus- on deck
plz join
''
''
Mumpulus
King
I think you posted the wrong save...
Mumpulus
King
Good call on the trade I think. I had only considered the relative values of the techs when pondering that trade, but hadn't considered the huge benefit of getting a better force together quickly to get our iron.
We're going to need some culture sometime anyway, so might as well build some culture to get the wines. I would switch to a library though. It'll take a little more time, but I'm one of those people who find temples and such a complete waste, and we will need libs eventually.
I'm all for micromanaging, so
Own.
Oslo is a pickle. Don't you hate corruption? I'd chop the game forest, and improve for food, then let it take over as worker producer soon, and put Reykjavik to better use. Just build a reg horse or something, surely we'll be able to find a good odds battle to promote him? I wouldn't invest in a barracks there. Workers and artillery there I'd say.
Summary of my proposals
In true Mumpulus tradition, the summary is longer than the "main text."
We're going to need some culture sometime anyway, so might as well build some culture to get the wines. I would switch to a library though. It'll take a little more time, but I'm one of those people who find temples and such a complete waste, and we will need libs eventually.
I'm all for micromanaging, so
Own.Oslo is a pickle. Don't you hate corruption? I'd chop the game forest, and improve for food, then let it take over as worker producer soon, and put Reykjavik to better use. Just build a reg horse or something, surely we'll be able to find a good odds battle to promote him? I wouldn't invest in a barracks there. Workers and artillery there I'd say.
Summary of my proposals
- Trondheim: continue on military; after Reykjavik BG mining finishes, reserve a worker to improve tiles here
- Copenhagen: same; is already working an unimproved tile? Share the worker with Trondheim until additional workers are available. In fact, after a road on the Reykjavik BG, mining NE of Trondheim and then S of Copenhagen doesn't waste worker turns.
- Reykjavik: irrigate FPs quickly, pop-rush library, then get a couple workers out
- Cow Town: road the forests if possible, bring down one or even both workers from Oslo to do that
- Oslo: no infrastructure, just a reg troop while growing, then workers and cats when we have the tech
- Attack: as soon as we have 6 horses? In addition to our existing acher/spear contingent, that should do to take the iron town, and then hold off Japan until they'll talk? Our objective should only be iron IMO, let's wait for Japan to cut down some jungle and clear some marshes before we go further.
In true Mumpulus tradition, the summary is longer than the "main text."
Mumpulus
King
Checked the save. A couple more things of note:
- Iron town has built a settler; I expect them to go for the spices SW... Be careful to check town size before attacking.
- The other continent is full; Zulus are the first to have a town on our turf, no contact yet. Mongols are lucky with the extra room on the subcontinent. Hopefully, we'll get a lot of alien towns on our continent, much easier to build our empire that way.
Roading forests in Cow Town seems like a waste of time, after lit we won't research anymore, and there isn't any upgrading, so money is kind of obsolete for a while. I'd either mine stuff for more shields (like plains or grassland) or have the workers go elsewhere.
6 horsemen sound good, though keep in mind the variant doesn't allow us to give them stuff for peace. In solo deity games I have taken AI cities and they still won't give me free peace, they seem to judge current military status more than what damage has been done. Horsemen should attack first as they can retreat and then let the couple archers we have finish them off.
Agree with everything else.
6 horsemen sound good, though keep in mind the variant doesn't allow us to give them stuff for peace. In solo deity games I have taken AI cities and they still won't give me free peace, they seem to judge current military status more than what damage has been done. Horsemen should attack first as they can retreat and then let the couple archers we have finish them off.
Agree with everything else.
Mumpulus
King
I can agree that research after lit isn't that important anymore that we have to invest worker turns to keep commerce up. But I would keep on researching until we are 100% certain of the GL.
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