P666-01 Fix the Trash Game

[cabert]

So we play to 1500. Good. The economic restoration, what are the key things that need to be done to make this restoration? Also what is the best way to measure it?

measure = techs/ gold in bank at the end of the 50 turns

Key things?
various tools here :
- cottages obviously
- missionaries + shrines + gold multiplier buildings
- trade / extortion
- war bounty
- specialists? (representation is far away, but it's nonetheless feasable)
- courthouses / Forbidden Palace somewhere in the north. Moving the palace is also an option.

 

[Calavente]

Ok 50t,

but I think the "win the trash game" round will be a win for everyone, too much inertia will be given with the best game of next round. I think it will become impossible to loose the game for the trash round.

So if I understand correctly, the way to salvage my game seems to go financial : markets, shrines, missionnaries..etc.
nobody arguing for heavy war with spain ?

Cala.

 

[cabert]

Ok 50t,

but I think the "win the trash game" round will be a win for everyone, too much inertia will be given with the best game of next round. I think it will become impossible to loose the game for the trash round.

So if I understand correctly, the way to salvage my game seems to go financial : markets, shrines, missionnaries..etc.
nobody arguing for heavy war with spain ?

Cala.

read again my post :
- war bounty
- trade / extortion

for extortion or war bounty, you need to go to war, don't you think?

 

[Calavente]

oups, sorry, forgot those two...

I do not understand your

- specialists? (representation is far away, but it's nonetheless feasable)

We have pyramids ==> representation is not far away, it is already ready to use... no?

 

[cabert]

oups, sorry, forgot those two...

I do not understand your
We have pyramids ==> representation is not far away, it is already ready to use... no?

do we?

Then it's specialist time

 

[armstrong]

Some interesting "races" :
- circumnavigation (very possible to gain, powerful!)
- liberalism (possible, one way to make things faster techwise)
- islam (Dr is a dead end, so IMHO it's useless)
- economics (one free GM would give us breathing time, but very unlikely to get it)
- physics (a far away goal, right now isn't it?)

I just can't see Economics, Physics, or Divine Right being useful... shouldn't the game be over before then?

? I don't understand the use of feudalism for the conquest of the other continent?
I'm afraid liberalism's free tech could be lost... well, we'll see.

The idea is that instead of researching:

Philosophy
Paper -> Education -> Liberalism -> (free) Astronomy
Gunpowder -> Chemistry

You can instead research:

Astronomy
Feudalism -> Guilds -> Gundpower -> Chemistry

The Feudalism path costs fewer beakers, but the Education path gives you a lot more goodies and is a better general "builder's" strategy.

for some symetry between rounds, i think we need roughly as much turns as the previous round. 70/80 is a bit too much, and would make this the final round for sure. So i propose (and already said so) 50 turns, up to 1500 AD. I don't think any of us will manage a domination win this fast, starting with cavalente's save at 1000AD (to be true, i don't think we could manage a domination win this fast from any of our saves, including mine and pigswill's).

But we should see some strong differences between games, enough to select a "best game" for the next round.
I'm afraid that a shorter time-span would result in very similar games. Not very interesting, is it?

I understand your reasoning, but I think 40 (or even 30) should be enough to show separation, too. But I'm absolutely fine with 50 also.

 

[armstrong]

So if I understand correctly, the way to salvage my game seems to go financial : markets, shrines, missionnaries..etc.
nobody arguing for heavy war with spain ?

Well, I'll give more specifics on my strategy after I play - we've been trying to not discuss the games too much before everyone has played, except in spoilers, so no one is too influenced by other peoples games/strategies.

But there's no reason you can't go to war and work on the economy. I definitely plan on going to war, but most of the strategic decisions will be based around speeding up the economy.

 

[Cam_H]

do we?

I think it will become impossible to loose the game for the trash round.

It would require an act of divine intervention to lose the game in the next few rounds, but I'd be hesitant to say that we'll get a domination victory in 70 to 100 turns with any certainty.

I've updated the opening post, and 'yes' - we're playing to 1500AD.

I think that the strength of all of the submissions really shone through, and I wasn't surprised to read that there was a close vote - I found voting to be quite difficult.

 

[pigswill]

Easy to screw up over the next fifty turns but as best game being picked everyone would have to play deliberately badly which is not the spirit of the game at all so we've got to the stage of going for winning quickly rather than worrying about losing.

 

[cabert]

losing is not really an option here
but winning before 1500 AD is not very likely, and i'm inclined to see the next round (up to 1900 AD? up to 1950 ?) as the possible win.

edit

Spoiler :

I played a few (20) turns already, and must say i'm glad that we're under representation
Religion is still a problem, but navy will be fine (circum bonus is mine). However, the lack of offensive power make the war options rather slim.

 

[Calavente]

yes but next round will be : elect a trash game.

 

[mice]

As a mid-week post while everyone is playing their games, I thought I'd post this collection. It is 'Things I've learned on this thread'. Here they are.


You can dance your settler one tile at a time unaccompanied to a new spot. If you see a
bear you can move back to avoid it with the remaining movement point.

Be very precise with worker moves in the early game to maximize their use. eg. Road towards resources that are not yet within the borders.

Don’t lightbulb Theology for theocracy if you don’t have a state religion. Use it to build a shrine if poss. (duh)

Don’t build lighthouses when there is a granary to build, and good land tiles to develop.

Think about using artists in newly captured towns to claim good tiles sooner either as a work of art or settled.
(all largely from cabert)

You don’t necessarily have to attack as soon as you get access to axes and catapults(from pigswill). Being attacked by the AI isnt so bad. you can raze their naff cities and replace them with better located ones.


Maximize population in a. city. Prioritize growth of the city as well as utilizing commerce and production. Also use hereditary rule (if it doesn’t clash with other strats), gold/silver plus forge, temple.(Cam_H)

With precious metals in the start, a CoL or CS slingshot is advisable.(All)

Go along the top and the bottom of the tech tree in order to tech trade with the AI, which generally goes along the middle; maths, currency, calendar, monarchy, feudalism, guilds, banking as favorites in classical/medieval times.(pigswill I think)


From Armstrong, the make up of the economy should be different depending on whether you are going for a conquest or a domination victory

And to quote cabert directly (for a strong economy)

measure = techs/ gold in bank at the end of the 50 turns

Key things?
various tools here :
- cottages obviously
- missionaries + shrines + gold multiplier buildings
- trade / extortion
- war bounty
- specialists? (representation is far away, but it's nonetheless feasable)
- courthouses / Forbidden Palace somewhere in the north. Moving the palace is also an option.

Armstrong again:

The idea is that instead of researching:

Philosophy
Paper -> Education -> Liberalism -> (free) Astronomy
Gunpowder -> Chemistry

You can instead research:

Astronomy
Feudalism -> Guilds -> Gundpower -> Chemistry

The Feudalism path costs fewer beakers, but the Education path gives you a lot more goodies and is a better general "builder's" strategy.


Not a bad haul of learning for just one thread. Any to add petrucci,VuDu?

 

[cabert]

don't you try this round mice?
I think it's pretty easy (pyramids are good!) to get back to our feet economically.

 

[mice]

don't you try this round mice?
I think it's pretty easy (pyramids are good!) to get back to our feet economically.

Yes I'm going to play! Of course. I just thought it was a good time to post what I've learned so far. Maybe have some discussion from petrucci and VuDu.

 

[VuDu]

Any to add petrucci,VuDu?

Things I've learned on this thread:

- Sending settlers out into the cruel world alone isn't popular. Do I dare tell you I sometimes scout with a worker?

- Micromanaging tiles at the beginning of the game can have a huge impact. It probably has a huge impact throughout the game, but at this point I'm not willing to micromanage every tile the whole game (but I definitely can and will do this at the beginning).

- Markets are usually better than courthouses. Makes sense now that I think about it; I just never thought about it before.

- The rumor that I don't have to have all technologies seems to be true.



A Few (of many) Things I still need to learn:

- How to use workshops and watermills.
- How/when to get a specific technology from a Great Person.
- How to determine a "good trade" with the AI (not in regard to beaker worth, but more in regard to value toward a particular goal).

 

[Cam_H]

- Markets are usually better than courthouses. Makes sense now that I think about it; I just never thought about it before.

Depends on the city; its role, its maintenance vs. yield, your distribution of between , and , total empire , access to market-specific luxury resources, whether you're chasing Great Merchants, etc...

 

[mice]

- How to use workshops and watermills.
- How/when to get a specific technology from a Great Person.

Yes, with the water/wind mills, Ive been having a lot of fun recently playing as industrial civs and trying to max out production (to explore the Warlords build wealth feature). it's really good to get a city on a river with some hills and experiment. Of course things change with replaceable parts and then electricity,state property, changing the effects of these mills. Replaceable parts brings in the lumbermill so you can be happy you saved the forests.It makes micro in the mid game quite interesting.

regearding the great people lightbulbing., i'll give my limited understanding of the prophets at least , and perhaps another player can fill in the gaps.

A prophet will lightbulb Meditaton,Polytheism,Preisthood, and then if you havent researched Masonry, he will lightbulb Col and then CS. So the prophet that you get from all the GP points from the oracle, will lightbulb Col, or CS if you have already researched CoL ... if you avoid Masonry.

If you get masonry, the prophet will go down the Monotheism, Theology Divine right route.

So a conservative slingshot is ;avoid masonry,build the oracle, ,it will give you CoL. The GP points will give a prophet. He will lighbulb CS= beauracracy.

 

[Cam_H]

Just to be pedantic, you can still get the Great Prophet - Civil Service slingshot if you have done the Masonry > Monotheism > Theology path by avoiding Monarchy (prerequisite to Divine Right) but having Code of Laws.

 

[armstrong]

Yes, with the water/wind mills, Ive been having a lot of fun recently playing as industrial civs and trying to max out production (to explore the Warlords build wealth feature). it's really good to get a city on a river with some hills and experiment. Of course things change with ..guilds is it? and then electricity,state property, changing the effects of these mills. Replaceable parts brings in the lumbermill so you can be happy you saved the forests.It makes micro in the mid game quite interesting.

In general, I've found I build wind mills in commerce towns in lieu of farms, and I only build watermills/lumbermills in cities I've designated as "production." Electricity boosts the commerce, while Replaceable Parts boosts the production (and enables mills) - however, normally I already have my production cities set by the time those techs come into play. I never chop more than 1 forest in a production city to reserve those tiles for lumbermills, and I chop everywhere else for important infra like theatres, granaries, libraries, courthouses, etc.

So a conservative slingshot is ;avoid masonry,build the oracle, ,it will give you CoL. The GP points will give a prophet. He will lighbulb CS= beauracracy.

Yes! This is actually very strong with Hatty in Warlords, as you can speed up that first Prophet by hiring priests from an obelisk. I already consider her to be the strongest leader in Vanilla, but now she gets an easy slingshot you can do on Monarch (and probably Emperor, though I haven't tried yet.) You can also forego the Oracle, and grab CoL via Math -> Currency, which lets her ignore most of the religious branch of the tech tree entirely unless you want Theocracy or Organized Religion. Quite powerful!

 

[cabert]

i've played my round

Let's hope others did better than i did
But i have a lot of excuses

So here is the save and some indication about how it went and why.

Spoiler :

some general indications of strategy/how it went
I'll give more infos if needed (so i'll answer any question, if there are), but i'm pretty sure this isn't going to be the best game, so i'm not giving too many details.

General strategy = economic recovery + domination
First move was to change
- production queues,
- tiles worked,
- tech researched (education for 24 turns = , i switched to compass then optics).

I also traded for every tech available from the AIs.

I built a few more catapults, and went to war on isabella.
Obviously i was too shy on unit building, and war became difficult soon.
I sued for peace (and extorted one more tech), to heal and build some more troops.

When optics came in i whipped 1 caravel in karakorum and 1 in munich. This earned me the circumnavigation bonus . And education was down to 10 turns (thanks to war bounty and loads of cottages). Liberalism free tech was for me = astronomy.
I did a lot of tech trading with mansa musa, + ressource trading with everyone over there + bribed JC to war vs mansa musa (bad move, he didn't send any unit AFAIK, and since they are of the same religion, they are still pleased with each other ).

I finished isabella and started war vs France, with very few (yet powerful) units and this would be tough for the next rounds, Nappy has more power than we have.

So how the grand strategy went :
- economically/technogically well. We're tech leader, with a good military tech advantage and money easily available.
- militarily not so well. Isa is gone but nappy will be a tough nut to crack, and going to war when you're not ready is a bad move! I expect others to have the whole continent at this time, and that would be a huge difference.

How it would look for the next round ?
Building hordes of grenadiers and cannons should do the trick against nappy, but expect a strong resistance. I didn't count tiles, but i have the feeling that we don't need much land on the other continent. Saladin would be a good (=weak) target for frigates+gallions filled with cannons/grenadiers.