P666-01 Fix the Trash Game
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
Congratulations!armstrong
Prince
Great job Calavente! 
Also, very good discussions going on.
Should we just make this round "play until you win?" Barring something disastrous, I doubt anyone will have a game with much to "fix."
Also, very good discussions going on.
Should we just make this round "play until you win?" Barring something disastrous, I doubt anyone will have a game with much to "fix."
I think I was maybe a bit overjoyed yesterday 
but It's only my second domination victory, the first one was done by launching modern armor against riflemen...in the late 90's, really not the same gut feeling.
I know (I really know) that it is not realy my game, but the victory is pleasant none the less.
At a time, in the 1650', I was very dubious that I would be able to win before the time limit.
For the next round...
it would be very informative if monarch cultural as I never tried a cultural victory, and never played monarch.
But the main difficulty here is that I won't be able to play next week so I would miss the 1st round.
but It's only my second domination victory, the first one was done by launching modern armor against riflemen...in the late 90's, really not the same gut feeling.
I know (I really know) that it is not realy my game, but the victory is pleasant none the less.
At a time, in the 1650', I was very dubious that I would be able to win before the time limit.
For the next round...
it would be very informative if monarch cultural as I never tried a cultural victory, and never played monarch.
But the main difficulty here is that I won't be able to play next week so I would miss the 1st round.
congrats Calavente!
No, there is no reason we start another round.
Petrucci?VuDu? Mice? how are you doing?
Play it out, there won't be another round...
i won't play this round, since there is a win already, i don't feel the need to "grasp" the game.
And about a gengis monarch cultural, i'd like to veto it!
That's really not playing the traits
But I'd like to play another "fix the trash game" soon. I was very much fun.
I just fear that our noble/prince players are used up (= playing it too well for us "monarch plyers" to have anything to fix).
So 2 options:
- going up a level without special variant thing, it's hard enough IMHO
- changing the roster (real noobs wanted )
As post mortem, i'd like to say this game was
- very much fun, friendly competition + different playstyles+ new situations
- easy, because of gold, silver in the initial fat cross + being industrious = loads of easy happiness + being expansive = loads of easy health. Don't expect such easy games every time! (disclaimer = the lack of metal could have led to a hard game)
- enlightening (for me!):
i'd like to apologize once again to VuDu. I didn't see the power of a pair of workers. Truly, this start, though suboptimal, made it easy for all of us.
Same thing, i'd like to apologize to pigswill once again. The first city he planted was obviously the strongest city possible! So much food + very good tiles to work give a better push than my "usual" copper city.
So
I learned much and had very much fun. Good thread, good game,
cam_h!
No, there is no reason we start another round.
Petrucci?VuDu? Mice? how are you doing?
Play it out, there won't be another round...
i won't play this round, since there is a win already, i don't feel the need to "grasp" the game.
And about a gengis monarch cultural, i'd like to veto it!
That's really not playing the traits
But I'd like to play another "fix the trash game" soon. I was very much fun.
I just fear that our noble/prince players are used up (= playing it too well for us "monarch plyers" to have anything to fix).
So 2 options:
- going up a level without special variant thing, it's hard enough IMHO
- changing the roster (real noobs wanted
)As post mortem, i'd like to say this game was
- very much fun, friendly competition + different playstyles+ new situations
- easy, because of gold, silver in the initial fat cross + being industrious = loads of easy happiness + being expansive = loads of easy health. Don't expect such easy games every time! (disclaimer = the lack of metal could have led to a hard game)
- enlightening (for me!):
i'd like to apologize once again to VuDu. I didn't see the power of a pair of workers. Truly, this start, though suboptimal, made it easy for all of us.
Same thing, i'd like to apologize to pigswill once again. The first city he planted was obviously the strongest city possible! So much food + very good tiles to work give a better push than my "usual" copper city.
So
I learned much and had very much fun. Good thread, good game,
cam_h!I will do the post mortem another time.
but lets say I've learned much/ and mostly tried to apply strategies/tactics that I've read about but never used before. (such as roughless attack, roughless whip...etc)
For the next game :
Monarch will be good enough for me.
I would like to have a shuffle map. seems to me that we may learn more that way than always having continents.
If with shuffle we obtain continents... Why not.
But by having pangea/archipelago ...etc we may make more mistakes as NP players. The challenges (and therefore the lessons) to straighten the "trash game" would be greater.
I think it would be more interesting than just adapting to a stronger AI.
but lets say I've learned much/ and mostly tried to apply strategies/tactics that I've read about but never used before. (such as roughless attack, roughless whip...etc)
For the next game :
Monarch will be good enough for me.
I would like to have a shuffle map. seems to me that we may learn more that way than always having continents.
If with shuffle we obtain continents... Why not.
But by having pangea/archipelago ...etc we may make more mistakes as NP players. The challenges (and therefore the lessons) to straighten the "trash game" would be greater.
I think it would be more interesting than just adapting to a stronger AI.
cam, you're still our master, most respected and beloved...
will you open fix the trash game 2?
I'd like it to be discussed a bit before you do so.
Monarch level seems obvious, now that we saw 60k + scores (trash game! where is the trash game!)
But i really don't like artificial difficulties.
I'm ok running for a cultural win (hey! check my avatar!), but :
- it's not really a "fix the trash game" IMHO, since you can't go back and found the missed religion or build the missed wonder.
- If we do aim for cultural, i want someone with somehow compatible traits. Either a philo, spi or financial leader. Or even an industrious one. Or a creative (though it's not very efficient for cultural) one.
I'd like a "poll" about those few questions :
- do we keep our roster ?
(triple question :
1) do people in our roster want to play another game?
2) are those noble/prince level players still noobish enough?
3) are there lurkers/others interested in joining?)
- do we change the main goal ?
(double question :
1) Is there something in CIV more important to learn than warmongering?
2) What specific goal do you all want to run for? cultural? diplomatic?space? no time victory for me please!)
- do we try specific settings?
(triple questions:
- do people want a specific map, because they want to see how they can work it?
- do we need more difficulty, and hope a shuffle map would give it to us?
- do we want a change?)
- do we stay vanilla? I bought warlords and played a few games (1 noble, 1 monarch, 1 scenario at chieftain level : i'm a real veteran) of warlords. I'm not vetoing it anymore
without knowing answers about the roster, it's difficult to answer to the rest, but
- I'm willing to play another of those games!
- If we up the difficulty to monarch, i have the feeling some of the prince level players will be out of their comfort zone, giving us something to fix.
- I like different maps, but they are mostly easier than continent. If we change, i propose a really different map (great plains, or lakes).
- I think leaving out cultural victory was a good choice, making the game more straightforward. I don't think cultural or diplomatic games are well suited for this format, but i'll go with whatever others say.
- and about warlords, i still favour vanilla (more balanced IMHO), but great generals and vassals are cool.
will you open fix the trash game 2?
I'd like it to be discussed a bit before you do so.
Monarch level seems obvious, now that we saw 60k + scores (trash game! where is the trash game!)
But i really don't like artificial difficulties.
I'm ok running for a cultural win (hey! check my avatar!), but :
- it's not really a "fix the trash game" IMHO, since you can't go back and found the missed religion or build the missed wonder.
- If we do aim for cultural, i want someone with somehow compatible traits. Either a philo, spi or financial leader. Or even an industrious one. Or a creative (though it's not very efficient for cultural) one.
I'd like a "poll" about those few questions :
- do we keep our roster ?
(triple question :
1) do people in our roster want to play another game?
2) are those noble/prince level players still noobish enough?
3) are there lurkers/others interested in joining?)
- do we change the main goal ?
(double question :
1) Is there something in CIV more important to learn than warmongering?
2) What specific goal do you all want to run for? cultural? diplomatic?space? no time victory for me please!)
- do we try specific settings?
(triple questions:
- do people want a specific map, because they want to see how they can work it?
- do we need more difficulty, and hope a shuffle map would give it to us?
- do we want a change?)
- do we stay vanilla? I bought warlords and played a few games (1 noble, 1 monarch, 1 scenario at chieftain level : i'm a real veteran
) of warlords. I'm not vetoing it anymore without knowing answers about the roster, it's difficult to answer to the rest, but
- I'm willing to play another of those games!
- If we up the difficulty to monarch, i have the feeling some of the prince level players will be out of their comfort zone, giving us something to fix.
- I like different maps, but they are mostly easier than continent. If we change, i propose a really different map (great plains, or lakes).
- I think leaving out cultural victory was a good choice, making the game more straightforward. I don't think cultural or diplomatic games are well suited for this format, but i'll go with whatever others say.
- and about warlords, i still favour vanilla (more balanced IMHO), but great generals and vassals are cool.
I havent played my turns yet. hoping for a good win.
Here are some thoughts about a next game that I noted down a few days ago.
Monarch difficulty.
M/E players first so N/P players can stuff up the vital second turnset.
Turnsets: maybe 40 40 and then 50 50 50 50 50
that is.. 2 sets of 40 to set the ground work an then big turnsets of 50 to really give people a chance to show how they play.
Regarding selection of the trash game; some arbitrary figures like total beakers/turn plus total commerce/turn,total hammers, unit...something like that, and players don’t consciously try to boost these. This would take the heartache out of the selection process, save a lot of time for people who analyze all the aspects of the save, and leave more time for commenting on strategy and tactics.
No player gets selected twice in a row(for the trash turnset).
Title of the thread should stay “fix the trash game”, because it’s catchy.
About the roster; It would be good if other players came into the thread.
Any noobs out there, post and show your interest.
If there are no replacements, I'll be happy to play another round. On monarch, I'm out of my depth. Haven't won a game at it.
Here are some thoughts about a next game that I noted down a few days ago.
Monarch difficulty.
M/E players first so N/P players can stuff up the vital second turnset.
Turnsets: maybe 40 40 and then 50 50 50 50 50
that is.. 2 sets of 40 to set the ground work an then big turnsets of 50 to really give people a chance to show how they play.
Regarding selection of the trash game; some arbitrary figures like total beakers/turn plus total commerce/turn,total hammers, unit...something like that, and players don’t consciously try to boost these. This would take the heartache out of the selection process, save a lot of time for people who analyze all the aspects of the save, and leave more time for commenting on strategy and tactics.
No player gets selected twice in a row(for the trash turnset).
Title of the thread should stay “fix the trash game”, because it’s catchy.
About the roster; It would be good if other players came into the thread.
Any noobs out there, post and show your interest.
If there are no replacements, I'll be happy to play another round. On monarch, I'm out of my depth. Haven't won a game at it.
Calavente said:I think I was maybe a bit overjoyed yesterday
but It's only my second domination victory, the first one was done by launching modern armor against riflemen...in the late 90's, really not the same gut feeling.
I know (I really know) that it is not realy my game, but the victory is pleasant none the less.
well, it's 40% your game
it's also 20% Vudu's game, 20% my game and 20% armstrong's game.
+ advice from pigswill, mice, petrucci,
+ map and leader (by the way, how did you get such a good start??? you regenerated 200 times?) selected by cam_h
In some way, it's paul666's game too, too bad he didn't try it
well, there is no game started yet, AFAIK. Don't waste your tearsBut the main difficulty here is that I won't be able to play next week so I would miss the 1st round.
Do you mean the first turnset isn't as vital as the second?mice said:
The first turnset can bring you in a very difficult situation on monarch. i remember my first games at this level where i was boxed in so quickly, without metals, in those 40 first turns! (That's why i started cat+elephant rushes
).I disagree! It's "fix my trash game", not "trash my good game"
armstrong
Prince
Some thoughts and ideas on this game and a new game:
1. I think what was more lucky for us was not the start as much as the fact that we were able to get almost all of our land from our starting continent. If we had started alone, or with only one other civilization, this game would be much harder.
2. If we started a new game, I'd like to ditch the "monarch-emperor" and "noble-prince" distinction. Everyone plays every week. I'm afraid that it artificially swayed some votes at times. Plus, I'd bet some of the NP players could be rightfully considered ME players now.
I wouldn't mind getting some new blood at all, too, in addition to all the regulars returning - if we think we'll end up with too many players, I'd be perfectly happy to not play and just discuss strategy and be the dedicated vote taker/thread organizer.
3. As for a new game, I think a Space Race game would be the way to go. I think it would be both harder to fix, it's the second "canonical" win-type, and it touches on some elements that were virtually nonexistant in this game: diplomacy, long-term research, making sure one opponent doesn't grow to strong, etc.
4. I don't think the fact this game was "easy" should be construed as that much of a bad thing, either. The most important thing SG's contribute as learning tools, compared to just reading strategy posts, is the ability to see how folks are winning...
1. I think what was more lucky for us was not the start as much as the fact that we were able to get almost all of our land from our starting continent. If we had started alone, or with only one other civilization, this game would be much harder.
2. If we started a new game, I'd like to ditch the "monarch-emperor" and "noble-prince" distinction. Everyone plays every week. I'm afraid that it artificially swayed some votes at times. Plus, I'd bet some of the NP players could be rightfully considered ME players now.
I wouldn't mind getting some new blood at all, too, in addition to all the regulars returning - if we think we'll end up with too many players, I'd be perfectly happy to not play and just discuss strategy and be the dedicated vote taker/thread organizer.
3. As for a new game, I think a Space Race game would be the way to go. I think it would be both harder to fix, it's the second "canonical" win-type, and it touches on some elements that were virtually nonexistant in this game: diplomacy, long-term research, making sure one opponent doesn't grow to strong, etc.
4. I don't think the fact this game was "easy" should be construed as that much of a bad thing, either. The most important thing SG's contribute as learning tools, compared to just reading strategy posts, is the ability to see how folks are winning...
Lots of questions!(1.) Let's finish our current game!
(2.) The 'Genghis Monarch Cultural' suggestion was only semi-serious.
(3.) I'm happy to do the OP on 'P666-02 Fix another trash game' if 'the team' is happy for me to roll up another corn-silver-silver-gold river start!
(No, I didn't regenerate the map 200 times!)(4.) On the poll and other comments;
I like our existing roster!cabert said:
OK - so the 'yawning gap' isn't there, but I think everyone's getting a lot from it anyway. I agree with Armstrong's point 2. that the M/E and N/P distinction can go. If someone pulls out, I'd like to see a replacement, but if the existing roster wants to go around again, I wouldn't change it.
I'm happy to.cabert said:
No, but that's OK by me.cabert said:
I vehemently believe that a 'domination-like' objective is important, especially if Cultural is going to be an option, as it's too easy IMHO to take out one enemy and then just turtle up.cabert said:
For instance:
Variant; The following Wonders cannot be built by the human player before 30% of the total landmass is secured: Hermitage, Globe Theatre, Apollo Program, United Nations.
I'm not concerned on the map. I almost always play continents on normal speed with the default settings.cabert said:
mice's 40-40-50-50-50-... suggestion seems fine by me.
Again I would push for one of Spain, India, Arabia, Germany, France or America, and push away from Rome as our tribe due to the UUs.
I've hardly played Warlords myself. I played the Vikings scenario two or three times, the Omen scenario oncecabert said:- do we stay vanilla? I bought warlords and played a few games (1 noble, 1 monarch, 1 scenario at chieftain level : i'm a real veteran
and got about half-way through a Warlords Monarch game, but got distracted by 'this P666-01 thing'. Calavente - no Cultural win?
Cabert - one Space Win?
I think 80% of my victories come from them!
This is a tough one! I'm still OK with the 3-2-1 secret ballot approach, but equally happy to consider alternatives.mice said:
Some good thoughts outlined in the above posts, but
... I'm looking forward to seeing the other P666-01 games.
pigswill
fly (one day)
I've been playing from my 'left field' 1000ad save; running behind on land and conquest but well ahead on tech; up to 1480; just got steel; nap with 4 cities, Izzy with 3 cities, Kublai untouched. Other continent untouched. Can I get domination before 1730? I really don't know. (but I'm going to find out).
Trash #2 sounds good to me. Monarch space race, raging barbs (please); everyone plays every set; pick best then worst next round. There is a significant jump from prince to monarch (as indeed with every level jump) so noble princes will be more stretched and imperial monarchs will have to play seriously.
Trash #2 sounds good to me. Monarch space race, raging barbs (please); everyone plays every set; pick best then worst next round. There is a significant jump from prince to monarch (as indeed with every level jump) so noble princes will be more stretched and imperial monarchs will have to play seriously.
Cam_H said:
(1.) Let's finish our current game!
sorry for this
It's just that i won't play this last round and there won't be another, so technically for me it's over
I know, that's why I allowed myself to veto it
(3.) I'm happy to do the OP on 'P666-02 Fix another trash game' if 'the team' is happy for me to roll up another corn-silver-silver-gold river start!
well, if you roll anything with a river and a metal, it will be better than my usual start
I believe monarch starts are usually not as generous as prince starts, though.
(4.) On the poll and other comments;
I like our existing roster!
right!
we just did Germany! Aside from this one, i'm fine with any other... Even Mongolia, if we do not aim for cultural.
I've hardly played Warlords myself. I played the Vikings scenario two or three times, the Omen scenario once
Same for me(only alexander scenario
). But i did finish my monarch warlords game rather than the last round of P666-01 cultural are my favourite (though i tend to go for domination lately), but space race! well... it's somehow ... boring? The only time i won one, it's because i couldn't finish a cultural victoryCalavente - no Cultural win?
Cabert - one Space Win?
I think 80% of my victories come from them!
That left me under the impression that this was really too easy. Something like, "ho man, the game's almost over and i didn't go for any kind of victory! Time for a space race...".
Same for me! I'd be really pleased to congratulate VuDu and Mice for the soon to be achieved domination victory.Some good thoughts outlined in the above posts, but
... I'm looking forward to seeing the other P666-01 games.
That's why i say to them:
SCHNELL! ARBEIT! SCHNELL!
Mice,
Well done, regardless of score!
We better have some Copper in arm's reach! I'd almost consider allowing Mali in as our playable tribe if we're doing a Space Race with Raging Barbs.
I agree though with all that you've suggested.
Do you think 'Aggressive AI' or hand-picked warmongers might be an idea to break up the peaceful development-type game?
Best of luck with the 'left field' game - I liked it!
enough for you!
Perhaps we should ban
also?
Another thought - I play on 'Normal' speed, but is anyone desperate for an 'Epic' game?
VuDu our
? Where are you? "SCHNELL!"
Well done, regardless of score!
Raging barbs?pigswill said:
We better have some Copper in arm's reach! I'd almost consider allowing Mali in as our playable tribe if we're doing a Space Race with Raging Barbs. I agree though with all that you've suggested.
Do you think 'Aggressive AI' or hand-picked warmongers might be an idea to break up the peaceful development-type game?
Best of luck with the 'left field' game - I liked it!
I think that you're right. I'll do my best. Maybe just 150 regenerated maps this time?cabert said:
I'm sure the 'friendly competitiveness' of this game will becabert said:
Perhaps we should ban
also?Another thought - I play on 'Normal' speed, but is anyone desperate for an 'Epic' game?
VuDu our
? Where are you? "SCHNELL!" Just checking in - I'll finish my game tonight or tomorrow morning. As for another game, I'd definitely participate, or at least follow along, because despite everyone saying there were no "real" trash games, I've only been able to win two prince games so far, and both of those were cultural. All others I've abandoned early in despair.
.armstrong
Prince
VuDu said:
I bet you could have won a lot of those games you abandoned if you had stuck with 'em until 2050! One of the big things with playing at higher levels is that the AI is going to get ahead initially - they just start with more stuff and bigger advantages. But if you play them out, maybe reload a few times and try out something different, you'll eventually find strategies to catch up.
I admit, though, I'm the same way on Emperor now. I was exactly the same as you - playing for mostly safe cultural victories on Prince, earlier this year. One of the big things that helped me break out was I had a game I really enjoyed - an isolated island start with Cyrus, on an island filled with sugar. For some reason I really cared about that island and all of its sugar, and spent a couple hours pacing around, drawing dotmaps in the strategy layer, and planning out exactly where every city was going to go. All of the cities got names based upon their geography, and to this day I still remember most of them, and in many cases their almost exact layouts! (Pig River, Pig Mouth, Clam Coast, East Sugar, West Sugar, North Sugar, S By SW Sugar, Greenfields, Sparkled Waters...)
I thought I had played really well, and when I met the other AI's I'd be in a "dominant" position for my first Domination win. Except, I wasn't. Monty had gone absolutely out of control with war and capturing shrines. He had much more land, troops, and I hadn't even outteched him!
So I knew I had to slow him down. I went to war... and was promptly stomped. But I wasn't going to abandon this little island of mine that I had spent so much time nurturing, so I reloaded and tried again, this time more carefully and with different forces... and lost again. I must have reloaded 3 times just to establish a beachhead that lasted, and 5 to finally get myself into the #1 position. Was it "cheating"? Sure, but it was better than just abandoning: in doing so, I learned how to handle that kind of situation. Something that used to scare me on Prince was no longer scary, and after a couple more games I was ready to move up to Monarch!
One little thing about that game - giving all my cities their own names I think made a really big difference, as it drew me into the game - it gave me more motivation to try a little harder, stick with it, and to linger a bit more on the city screen
This is one reason I always try to name my cities on higher levels (though not my units anymore, as it's too 
.)Cam_H said:Raging barbs?
I don't think Raging Barbs is a good idea, especially if we move up to Monarch. The difference between Monarch barbs & Prince barbs is already quite noticable. Personally, I don't like raging barbs in general because it actually helps the AI but hurts the player, and - this is important for this game, I think - it's very random. We want to cut down on that, I think - it's unfair (and not really educational) for someone to get a trash game because they had an barb axeman show up earlier than anyone else, or lost their second city because they lost a couple of 90% fights.
Cam_H said:
I don't know if it's really necessary. One of the challenges of getting a fast space race is minimizing the amount of production and gold you spend on units while carefully working your diplomacy. There's almost always a crazy or two you need to keep happy (or busy
.)Cam_H said:Perhaps we should ban
I've never used a nuke before... what's it's advantage in a for a Space Race?
Cam_H said:
I alternate between the two, and like them both. Personally, I think Normal speed is best for this SG since our turnsets are already so long.
pigswill
fly (one day)
OK with no raging barbs which only tend to be a major problem at the start of the game. I'm used to playing on normal speed so don't have a good grasp of timing on epic. I think we shouldn't realy limit anything except victory condition because a large part of the attraction of this format for me is seeing different strategies/tactics towards a common goal.
In terms of leader/civ I'd like someone with spiritual; maybe Isabella, maybe Monte. Probably not the indian leaders or mansa coz it would be good to have these as AI competitors.
Edit: my game, 1545, Nap and Isabella gone. Time for KK.
VuDu: One of the things I've been finding out out is that perseverance makes a difference. A couple of games that seem hopeless can turn into victories (others you just lose) but you don't know if you give up half way through.
In terms of leader/civ I'd like someone with spiritual; maybe Isabella, maybe Monte. Probably not the indian leaders or mansa coz it would be good to have these as AI competitors.
Edit: my game, 1545, Nap and Isabella gone. Time for KK.
VuDu: One of the things I've been finding out out is that perseverance makes a difference. A couple of games that seem hopeless can turn into victories (others you just lose) but you don't know if you give up half way through.
