Pacific/Oceania Mod- Discussion Thread

[CMKMStephens]

I was about to suggest rotating it somehow.

Bonus

Bananas -> Kumara (more of it in the North Island since it's temperamental, unlike potatoes)
Cattle -> Seals
Deer -> Moa
Fish - ✓
Sheep -> Kune kune (maybe, not native per se)
Stone -> ✓ (could be moved to Strategic)
Wheat -> Ferns (fernroots) (best I could come up with, basically a substitute for the carbohydrate plants that wouldn't grow in NZ, otherwise found in the Pacific)

Luxury:

Cotton -> Flax
Dyes - ✓ (obviously linked to some sort of Moko tech)
Furs - ✓
Gems -> Greenstone (could be moved to strategic)
Gold - ✓
Incense - ?
Ivory -> Bone
Marble - ✓
Pearls -> Paua
Silk -> Feathers
Silver - ✓
Spices - ?
Sugar - ?
Whales - ✓
Wine - ?

Could turn one of them into Crayfish.

Strategic

Aluminum -
Coal -
Horses -
Iron -
Oil -
Uranium -

Not sure what to do with strategic, as things like Greenstone and stone, and maybe wood would make up the bulk of it.

 

[CivOasis]

I will not be editing resources.
Out of everything modders can do, that is one of the hardest, and I don't know how. Plus, it requires updates at every patch.

 

[Pouakai]

Surely all you would have to do for some of those is just a simple rename. Not the most glorious way, I know, but it would help improve it. Obviously some would be impossible this way (Deer --> Moa and Cattle --> Seals) but for most I think we could do it.

 

[CivOasis]

Well, maybe renames. It'll be one of the last things to happen, if I do that, though, since there are many more important things to be done first.

 

[Ahriman]

A few thoughts:
I would say that having locally sensible resources is a necessity for a scenario designed to have historic flavor. A fair amount could be accomplished with some renaming, and placeholder graphics could be used until the very end.
I think resources need to be incorporated into the design from fairly on, since they will be key to how buildings and techs work and which ones are needed, how the game plays, etc.
Resources are integral to the design.
You *can* just use existing resources as placeholders which eliminates the need to do the technical work early on, but design decisions still need to be made.

On the list:
Kumara seems fine. I imagine that kumara gardens could also be an improvement or building, but vanilla has a wheat resource and a granary, so no big deal there.
Seals... did Maori really use seals much? Remember that most players here are Maori. I thought seals were only really hunted by the Europeans.
Still, they could be there, but only revealed/enabled by a late-game tech, like sheep or cattle.
AFAIK, moa were extinct long before this period, so it wouldn't make much sense to include them.
Kune Kune... maybe. They're introduced in the early 19th century, but they were never a major food source. Maybe: have them, but place them in only a few spots, and have them revealed by a tech?
Sheep and cows could probably stay, and work the same.
I'm not sure that stone makes that much sense. It was never used as a building material by Maori, and the stones they did use weren't particularly rare as far as I know (except for greenstone).
Ferns or fernroot just seems to common to be a special resource.

Flax is a good call, and dyes seems reasonable, though I'm not sure they were actually geographically linked.
Furs seems odd; what animals do you have in mind here? Maori didn't really use furs at all. Most of the mammals weren't introduced/widespread until much later.
I'm not sure that bone makes sense as a resource; whalebone is important but it comes from whales, not from random bone deposits on land tiles?
Paua seems reasonable, though it was also a food source.
Feathers just feels odd for a resource.
I'm not aware of Maori ever mining silver, or using it.
Crayfish definitely makes sense.
I'm not sure that strategic resources make a lot of sense for the scenario. Horses could be used I guess for Europeans, and placed only in a handful of places, but most of the European military wasn't cavalry.

 

[CMKMStephens]

Well:

Seals - very strong archaeological evidence of seals being eaten in large numbers, bones being used in pre-European times, teeth made into fishing hooks, etc. In the same way the Maori ate their way through the Moa, they ate/skinned their way through just about all the North Island Fur Seals by the 1800s

Furs - good point, maybe Furs -> Feathers ? If it's musket wars, introduced furry mammals are running around. Could be swapped with the above - There's a reason they're called Fur Seals.

Stone - not for building, more for tools

Moa - Guess so.

Feathers - I can't think of a better luxury resource for Maori. Seriously. Kakapo and Kiwi feathers for the greatest chiefs cloaks, etc
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/nga-manu-birds/1

Gold and Silver - could just stay on the map, but untouchable until Europeans show up like Cattle and Sheep. How long is the time period? If it starts pre-musket wars and gets to the 1860s...

If you want to do something rather amusing, but still historically accurate, the European city states could have 'luxury resources' of bibles or religion, or give out Great People missionaries that add culture/happiness. Rather than suggesting that Bibles = happiness, maybe happiness could be renamed 'Mana' (in the sense of prestige and power). Feather = Mana, Greenstone = mana, trade with the Europeans give Mana, etc.

 

[Ahriman]

Seals - very strong archaeological evidence of seals being eaten in large numbers

Ok, cool. Seals go in then. Do you think they should be on land tiles adjacent to coast, or a water resource on coast tiles? probably better as a land resource, if we already have fish/whales/crayfish/paua as water resources.

If it's musket wars, introduced furry mammals are running around

Musket wars are 1807-1842.
Rabbits weren't even introduced until the late 1830s, and they weren't widespread until the 1870s. I think all the other furry mammals came after rabbits?

Stone - not for building, more for tools

Sure, but was supply of stone for tool-making really rare? What improvement would get built on them - would we really want Maori building a quarry?
I guess it would be harmless to include though.
As a bonus resource, they could be scattered throughout the country.

Feathers - I can't think of a better luxury resource for Maori.

Moa cloaks and such were certainly a big deal, but were they really a location-based resource that makes sense to have on a particular tile? Its not like they were farming kakapo or kiwi.
Still, probably reasonable at the Civ-level of abstraction that we're talking about. So, yes to feathers.
I wonder where they should be placed, geographically?

Gold and Silver - could just stay on the map, but untouchable until Europeans show up like Cattle and Sheep. How long is the time period? If it starts pre-musket wars and gets to the 1860s...

Time period is roughly 1800-1860s. I guess gold rushes do fit into the end of that period.
http://www.nzmint.com/bullion/about-gold/gold-new-zealand
So, gold does make sense as a resource. One way to implement it, would be to have it revealed only by a high end tech that the European player starts with, or to have it revealed always but to have a mine improvement enabled only by a high-end tech. To mimic the goldrush population growth, maybe the mine on gold would provide a sizeable food bonus?
Gold resources could be placed in Coromandel, Waihi, west coast SI, Collingwood. [Otago probably outside of the map area]
I'm not aware of silver mining being a big deal then?

If you want to do something rather amusing, but still historically accurate, the European city states could have 'luxury resources' of bibles or religion

I thought about this kind of thing as maybe better modeled with a Christianity social policy tree and with mission/church buildings. So Maori players could either take policy picks in a traditional beliefs tree, or in a christianity tree.
That seems like it might fit better than a resource, and this way you can still get it even without being on good terms with the British player.
See some ideas here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10901429&postcount=61

 

[CivOasis]

Sorry about the late response here.
Like I said, resources are probably one of the last things I'll look into.
SPs will be after the main part.
Anyways, at the moment, I'm waiting for Pouakai to finish some work on another Terra Novus mod, and then he has offered to write the total-conversion part (aka, removing everything) of the Hawai'i scenario. After that, xml shouldn't take long.
As for New Zealand, the total conversion component will be re-used to write that, so the early xml stages of that mod shouldn't be bad, either.

 

[Ahriman]

Like I said, resources are probably one of the last things I'll look into.

I don't think that is possible. You can ignore them for the Hawaii scenario and for some other stuff, and you can ignore the *technical* parts of resources and just use existing resources as placeholders, but its very important to have the resources as part of the design. You can't design units, tech trees, building or maps without knowing what the resources will be.

 

[CivOasis]

I don't particulary plan on using strategics. If anything, it will be a few luxuries/bonus.
Besides, if done at all, it will be a simple rename of existing resources.
Which is why I am hesitant to do it at all - it looks too poorly made.
In any event, the components that would be altered by resources - maps - are quick fixes.

 

[Ahriman]

In any event, the components that would be altered by resources - maps - are quick fixes.

This is not the case. For example, if there are particular resources that will be revealed by a late-game tech on one part of the tech-tree (eg sheep, gold, silver) then you have to have a resource design before you can do the tech tree. If there are particular buildings that will boost the yield of particular resources, then you have to have a resource design before you can do the building design.

The resource design also affects the overall design. For example, if there are lots of luxury resources, that will make buildings and social policies that provide happiness less important; if there are few luxury resources it will make those buildings/policies more important. If there are some powerful economic bonuses from revealing resources at the high end of a particular part of the tech tree, that would make science more valuable. And so forth.

It is not just a matter of the map.

And having sensible resources would be a key part of the flavor of a mod like this.

It is fine if the actual resources you use are just renames of existing ones, but you still have to think about the design of what those resources will be.

 

[CivOasis]

Well, can you come up with a finalized list (yes, I saw discussion before) of what resource should replace which?

 

[Ahriman]

CMKMStephens has some very good ideas above.

I will think about it some more and post a proposal when I get a chance.

If anyone has any further ideas on units, buildings, social policies or techs (see for example http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10898526&postcount=52 , http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10899048&postcount=55 , http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10901429&postcount=61 ) that would be awesome.

But I'll sketching out an early draft of something that might work.

 

[CivOasis]

Awesome, thanks.

 

[Ahriman]

I'm working on an overall design document, but I'm pretty busy this week.

Something for map makers that came up: given its historic importance, I think we will need to make northland and Auckland rather larger than life, in addition to packing them with resources. Otherwise these will be too small to have any decent war in.

I have a set of civs down (7 major Maori tribes, Great Britain, France, 7+ Maori city states), which will be important for map design. The tribes will also need to be placed with some care for the English colonists who will eventually show up; there will need to be holes for the English cities to be built with settlers who show up by script (Auckland, Christchurch, Wellington, New Plymouth, Nelson, Blenheim, Napier, Tauranga, Gisborne).

My other really big worry in terms of placement is the AI's general unwillingness to attack city states and its ineffectiveness in using embarkation to speed up journeys, but maybe we'll manage to deal with that.

 

[CMKMStephens]

I would be really happy to continue to assist in a brainstorming/historical capacity - the best I can do in terms of content is to work on maps.

 

[Ahriman]

Awesome. Here is what I have so far (attached).
I think the Civs section is nearly done, resources and improvements are mostly done.

More brainstorming for technologies, military units, and social policies would be great.

 

[Ahriman]

Another thought for map design; I think it could be more interesting if chopping forests is not available to Maori until a midgame tech. That way, clear land is actually valuable in the early game, and development can be somewhat constrained by the forest cover, rather than having lots of clearfelling.

Jungle might be never be cleared, and jungle should probably be used only for west coast south island forest and maybe Wanganui. Central north island (Rangipo desert, Waiouru to Turangi) should probably be tundra. Otherwise everywhere should probably be grassland, plains, hills, mountains (for southern alps, Tarankai, Tongariro), forest, and then maybe some marsh near rivers (for flax to be in?).

 

[Ahriman]

Current building draft

Spoiler :

Palisade +3 city defense
Pa +4 city defense
Gunfighter's pa +5 city defense
Kumara gardens +2 food, +1 food on kumara
Trading post +1 gold, +25% gold, 1 trader specialist slot
Wharenui (meeting house). Courthouse replacement??
Wai Tapu (sacred ground). +2 culture, +2 culture to kauri, +1 culture with Kawa social policy, 1 elder specialist slot
Marae. +3 culture, +2 culture to kauri, +1 culture with Kawa social policy, 2 elder specialist slots
Wanaga. +1 science per 3 citizens, 1 student specialist slot
Gunsmith 10% military production, +15 experience for newly created gunpowder units
Mission. Gives +2 happiness, boosted by Conversion social policy
Church. Similar? Gives +3 happiness, boosted by Conversion social policy
Native school +25% science, -25% culture, +25% science from public education social policy, +20% culture from assimilation social policy, 2 student slots
Pataka +15% excess food.
Barracks?? +15 experience for newly created land units
Grog shop +2 gold, +2 happy, -25% culture, low producton cost
Carving school +2 culture, +2 culture to kauri, +1 culture with Kawa social policy
Land sales +4 gold, +33% gold, -25% culture, low production cost
Mill +20% production, +1 production to flax, kauri tiles
Fishing village +1 food on water tiles. +1 food on paua, fish. Allows connection trade connection over sea (like harbor).
Canoe builders +33% production for naval units, +15 experience for newly created naval units

Colonial office +6 food, +3 production, +6 gold, very low build cost. Requires European technology tech (available only to Europeans, to get their new cities up and running fast). Destroyed with probability 100% on city capture

Current social policy draft

Spoiler :

Mana (prestige). Theme: (Maori) city state bonuses.
Opener ?
Koha (gift-giving custom) +25% influence from gifts.
Kingitanga (creation of a Maori king). Influence cannot fall below 20 in any city state. +20 influence to all city states (one-shot on adoption).
Kawanatanga (governance) ?
Rangatiratanga (chieftanship) ?
Tangata whenua (people of the land) ?
Finisher ?

Taonga (treasures). Theme: economy boosts (from improvements, resources, etc.).
Opener +1 gold in all cities
Coastal tradition '+2food, +2 gold from fishing boats
Forest lore +1 production from camp improvement?
Farming tradition +10% food in all cities, +1 food to kumara garden building
Craft tradition +1 gold from village improvement
Kaitiaki (guardianship) +1 culture from forests
Finisher +2 gold from all bonus and luxury resources

Tikanga (the Maori way of doing things). Theme: culture bonuses.
Opener +2 culture in all cities
Kawa (ceremonial protocol) +1 culture from Wai Tapu, Marae, carving school
Oral Tradition. Reduces the culture cost of future social policies.
Kapa Haka (performing arts). +1 happy from Wai Tapu, Marae
Tribal council. +1 culture to all specialists. +2 culture from great artist building (landmark?).
Hui 2 free social policies
Finisher:

Christianity. Theme: happiness bonuses.
Opener
Conversion Gives +2 happy to church, mission.
Ringatu (a specific Maori church founded by Te Kooti in the 1860s). ?
?
?
?
?
Finisher

Warfare
Opener: gives free great general
Utu (blood debt/vendetta) +33% attack strength for 20 turns??
Discipline +20% strength from adjacent unit.
Cannibalism +culture from defeated units?
Slavery Gives extra gold and free worker when capture enemy city?
?
Finisher ?

European ways.
Opener ?
Public education. Gives +1 happy, +25% research to Native school.
Public health. +20% excess food in all cities.
Royal audience. Gives 4 free "Brown Bess" musket units in capital city.
Assimilation. Gives +20% culture to grog shop, native school, land sales, etc. (ie cancels most of the penalties)
Export industry, '+1 gold to lumbermill, mine, pasture
Finisher ?

Still some gaps to fill, any thoughts?

 

[CivOasis]

Looking through it now, looks great so far!