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Patch 1.09 released!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Borgholio, Nov 23, 2005.

  1. blue3c

    blue3c Warlord

    Joined:
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    Wisconsin where the cheese is
    Yes I have a job. Two if you must know. Three if you count my happy existing in the Army.
    If I did in fact write a game full of bugs like this. I would expect people to be upset.
    Yes I have messed up and yes I have heard about from my customers. If I did do something to deserve it I happily shut my mouth and take my lumps. I also do all that is in my power to keep my customers informed on what I am doing to fix whatever it is that I may have messed up on. If I did not do this I would not have these customers.
    If sid and soren did show up at my door I would show them every error I see. I would also point out that they did infact drop the ball on this one. I would also say that I will never buy another product they make until it has been patched three or four times and sits on the bargin shelf. That my trust of any product they may come out with is gone. I would also ask why they are out signing a game and not back in the lab working on a fix.
    As for your guarentee of what I may or may not do. You do not know me. Do not assume anything.
    As for cheap shots. I have not said anything in here that I have not forwarded on to firaxis, with my name number email and address. So that kinda blows that out of the water.


    Aussie Lurker, I see you have joined in. Tell you what. Give me the staff and resources sid and soren have, and I will make that game. I will also throw in a new wrinkle. I will actually test it on more then two boxes.
    As for minority or majority, well as stated before you can not say that. You can say a majority in here.... blah blah blah. We have been over this.
    I love it when you chime in. You always have so much to say and yet still end up saying nothing.

    I do find it funny that instead of defending the game you both turn your attacks to me. So be it. But the game is still full of bugs. The official patch did not fix the game. The only patch that has really made a dent in the real issues with the game was made by a person who paid for the game. Not one who works there.

    The gaming industry is not doing well here folks. and just accepting it is not going to make it any different. If you really enjoy having to fix what somebody else sold you. fine. Enjoy it. Personlly I call that garage saling. Where you buy something that you know needs to be fixed, cause usually it is used.
    Well guess what, these games are not used. They are new. They even have a little section on the side of the box that says if you have this it will work. Not maybe, not kinda.
    To back this all up we even have game reviewers who do not even review the game. Are you telling me that not one of those reviewers had an ati card? hmmmmm. :eek:
     
  2. Efexeye

    Efexeye Silly Donkey

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    Do your customers do nothing but slander you? Or do they offer constructive criticism? You've done a lot of the former, almost NONE of the latter.

    *cough*bullcrap*cough*. I wish I had a better response to this, but I have to call it how I see it...


    It's a forum. All I have to judge you by is your posts, and your posts are negative, immature, nasty and pointless.

    Uh, just because you forwarded your little diatribes to Firaxis doesn't mean they aren't cheap shots.

    You don't listen to defenses of the game, anyway, so what is the point? I am addressing your attitude, which seems to be that you are just going to b!tch and no one is going to stop you. Go ahead and b!tch, I don't think anyone CAN stop you, but if this is the way you deal with people you feel slighted by, good luck in life man, you're gonna need it.

    Here's my theory- you were banned recently, it made you sad, and now you're seeing how far you can push the line before you get banned again. Not a constructive use of these fine forums.
     
  3. Efexeye

    Efexeye Silly Donkey

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    Actually, could a mod delete this whole thread of conversation, if they haven't already? This is a sticky thread, and I'd rather not contribute to the flaming here....apologies for not ignoring this guy in the first place, he just rankles me- not one positive or constructive post, just "Firaxis sucks, they are con artists, only I am in possession of the knowledge by which this is realized, etc.,etc."- it's getting ooooooooold in a hurry.
     
  4. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Well, thats funny blue3c, 'cause I tend to think that you must be talking within an echo chamber or something-because you just seem to repeat the same claptrap over and over and over again-you're starting to sound like Rainman, only not quite as intelligent. I have shown you poll after poll after poll-all of them with a MAJORITY of people supporting the game-in spite of such polls often being skewed in favour of complainants. Yet you blithely write them off as 'inaccurate' because they don't back up your point of view (the sign of a delusional degree of narcissism). At no point have I ever said there were never problems with the game, simply that you and a few of your acolytes love to blow the thing WAY out of actual proportion, a true attention-seeking exercise that proves you have a very narcissistic personality. I will simply end by saying that-if you have such a genuinely low opinion of the gaming industry, and Firaxis in particular, then why don't you either put your money where your mouth is-and set up your own and/or simply stop buying their products. Just don't keep coming here with your circular arguments and name-calling that simply lowers the tone of an otherwise excellent forum.

    Aussie_Lurker.
     
  5. blue3c

    blue3c Warlord

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    So what if I was banned. Truthfully I could care less about that. I have already addressed that, expressed my feelings on that matter and it is done as far as I am concerned.


    Try glasses then. Cause you blinded by your dronish following of firaxis.

    You have not defended the game. You have not even attempted to.
    You said there was a critical patch in the first week that was in fact a work around. The first patch came out 6 or 7 weeks after release. Not sure on the exact date. Then you said that was quick and it is the holidays give them a break. That was your whole defense of the game. Everything else was directed at me personally. When all I asked was
    Then had a few people say they agree with me. Had you attack me again. Then had aussie lurker talk much about nothing again. God that never gets old.
    You still have failed to defend the game.

    I will say it does work great for some and it works horrible for some.
    It needs more work. Which goes back to my original question. Has anyone heard anything official from firaxis about a patch of the patch?
    Has anyone heard anything form firaxis at all since they released this patch?

    Yah thats what I thought. Nothing, nadda. Zip zero zilch.
    Please if I am wrong here tell me. I would love to hear that they have updated the patch, or said they would. And where I can read this on the official site. Have they communicated with there customers at all? I for one would love to here they are doing more work then the person in these forums that worked on a real fix for the game. But they have yet to prove it. :mad:
     
  6. Oggums

    Oggums King

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    I'm not going to read all of your arguing, I just want to say that the game design rocks, but the technical implementation completely sucks.

    The developers and publishers both deserve to be criticized and *****ed at for shipping it before it was done. It's crap, just like every other piece of crap from any game company who ships early to meet the quarter/holiday season.

    It sure is a fun piece of crap, though.
     
  7. Natronomonas

    Natronomonas Warlord

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    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=147375&page=3#52

    Not the most discursive update, but at least some official comment...
     
  8. Oggums

    Oggums King

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    Errr...what exactly should I be looking for in that thread? I can't find anything official. "Official" info should really be on their website, anyway. I can certainly understand the complaints that they aren't making any effort to keep thier customers informed.
     
  9. Natronomonas

    Natronomonas Warlord

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    Official in the sense it's someone from Firaxis....

    I agree something on the website would be better, but in the meantime, at least the company is directly communicating with forum-goers that a patch is coming soon that fixes some of the most common problems presently described here.

    Believe me, I was (and still to some extent) saying that Firaxis should say something - their tech support page is still a joke. Sending people here is one solution but as there's now documented solutions to some problems, it would have been good for them to supply them directly IMHO.
     
  10. Philips

    Philips Chieftain

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    It is amusing watching the amateur Ari Fleischers try to spin this issue. I don't understand the motive though.

    Is the reason the bugs haven't been fixed because the programmers who are supposed to be fixing them are here trying to persuade people that there are no bugs? It it just the challenge of making an obviously absurd argument? Who knows?

    What is obvious is that Civ IV was released before it was ready. The motive isn't that hard to understand. A company working on a product has to pay development costs until it is released. The purpose of developing a product is to make money. Nothing else. No there is no money made until the product is released, hence the motive to release it on schedule, even if it is not ready.

    With a physical produce like a car, the cost of fixing the product after it is sold keeps this under control, as well as consumer protection laws.

    If you ordered a computer on line and found that it didn't work because there was a coupon where the motherboard should be stating that they would send you a motherboard when they got the bugs out of their design there would be a lawsuit. Maybe someone would go to jail.

    Unfortunately, most lawyers and jurys aren't very computer literate and they stupidly bought into the notion the notion that implied warranty of merchantability shouldn't apply to software. This is why the option of releasing a product that only partially exists is more of a temptation for software companies. Once you buy it, they have your money and you can only hope you eventually end up with what you pay for.

    That is what I hope anyway.

    The alternative is doing what GM did what the Cadillac brand in the seventies. If you want quick cash you can take a valuable brand name, slap it on a piece of crap and rake in the profits until people figure out that "Cadillac" isn't synonymous with quality anymore.

    I hope that Take two didn't buy Firaxis with the second possibility in mind, because then those of us who really enjoy the Civilization series are screwed.
     
  11. MourinhoPortuga

    MourinhoPortuga Chieftain

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    Well said Philips
     
  12. Natronomonas

    Natronomonas Warlord

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    Well I and others have said, when Civ5 comes out, I won't be buying it until I've heard it's stable.

    Enough people do that and they don't get the sales... I guess you're always going to get the uninitiated, but if you alienate your "ongoing" fan base it's going to hurt a bit...

    I'm going to the same with every other Take2/Firaxis product now too. Sure, they got the quick buck this time, but you can't keep doing the same thing.
     
  13. Oggums

    Oggums King

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    Yep, and if you do it enough times, customers wont just wait until it hits the bargain bins, they'll stop buying altogether. As well as telling every friend they know why they shouldn't buy either.

    For example, I will never, ever, consider purchasing a Bethesda title. I bought several of the Daggerfall series and they were bug ridden every single time. Even if the next one hits the bargain bins at 25 cents, I swear I wont give them another dime. Ever. And look, here I am evangelising and recommending you should never buy from them, either. ;)

    BTW this game is not bad at all, compared to so many other disastrous game releases. Not that I'm in the "it's typical so get over it" camp, just saying at least the game mechanics are down tight. Behind the occasional crashes, there's a great game to play that's worth rebooting for. :goodjob:
     
  14. Natronomonas

    Natronomonas Warlord

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    Rebooting how many times though? I played for a couple of days before shelving it for a week or so before discovering and trying the changes here at CFC... and how many people just shelved it?

    But yes, now I tell my friends, great game, but wait.... don't buy yet. Get another game for Christmas.
     
  15. blue3c

    blue3c Warlord

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    I agree something is better then nothing. This is sort of something. :crazyeye:

    I totally agree with this. Couldn't stop laughing when I read it though. Especially that last line.

    See this is what is so frustrating to me. The game is fun when it does work. Especially after Harks hard work. Man being able to play the game now is downright awesome. I still get the occasional slow down. Which if I ignore will crash my system. Lock it tight or just a mem allocation error. If the game slows at all I have to save, back out. reboot and clear the cache. The problem here is unseen. If I let it lock up hard and before Harks work it would. You have to reset your system. Everytime you do this you risk killing your hdd. You at least do some minor damage to it. Not as much as in the old days. But you do some damage. That adds up. There is a reason there is a shut down. Not to mention the risk of totally hosing your OS.
    This is what drives me up a wall.

    I just hope firaxis can fix this. I hope I am wrong about the expansion pack fix threory. But with there current rate of work and communication who knows. Even if your a hard core believer you don't know they are hard at work. You can assume as much. But we have an old saying in the Army, you can assume but you know what it makes, it makes an blank out of you and me. Censored for my own good. LOL.

    Back when we were gaming on dos and 95 machines. We knew it was the os. The limitations of the os made gaming hard. high mem, cd drivers loading the mouse in a bat file. Oh man the bat files you would have to create to get the game to work.
    Those old excuses of all the hardware is different. Well they are getting old. Nvidia and ATI have locked up the video cards. Pretty much everyone is running xp. Which is the most stable MS OS to come out. Please lets not make this an MS thing. Cause we could go for years on that. I agree he stole it from xerox. joy joy everyone get happy.
    Sure we have differnet mobo manufactuers. ok. chipsets and so on. But is it really the hodge podge everyone is lead to believe. The nightmare. I wonder. I would like to hear from someone who actually codes games on this. Yes this means you can not comment aussie. I mean I can not stop you, but would hope you leave it to someone who actually does this for a living to explain it.
    Shoot I would love to hear Harks take on it. Seems he has his hands well in this cookie Jar.
    I will admit I am a hardware geek, I work on servers, workstations and laptops. I also do network admin work. My programing skills died out with basic.

    10 ? "I love beer"
    20 goto 10

    LOL. I still have the old trek game I played on the atari 800 that I totally rewrote and almost got suspended for.

    So open question to the game coders out there. Is the state of todays Hardware really the hodge podge that everyone is lead to believe. Please only answer this if you are a game programmer. Otherwise it is just an opinion, and they are just like.... well you get the idea. I am looking for honest feedback. Help me, us to understand a little better. :crazyeye:
     
  16. Oggums

    Oggums King

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    Hell yeah, it's a hodge podge.

    But, if you're coding with DirectX, the whole point is that you don't have to worry about it. You're supposed to be able to just write good DirectX code and let the hardware manufacturers make it work.

    Realistically, a small game company is going to test on only a small set of hardware configurations. The main focus should be on testing the actually game play, not the hardware compatability. Most developers won't have the resources to insure is works on everything. Theoretically, if the hardware drivers all work properly with the current version of DirectX (<--BIG "if" there), then if it works on one it works on them all.

    But, then there's the other tools...BINK, MILES Sound System, PYTHON (WTF?!? on that one), etc. etc...The more of these you rely on, the greater your chances are of having bugs in your game that you will never, ever find. If you heavily rely on somebody elses code, you're just asking for trouble. But, you can't fault developers for using them. Your budget may not allow for any other choice.

    Back in the "old" days (DOS) you had to write code for every piece of hardware out there. But, how many hardware companies were there? Take sound cards, for example. You could count them on one hand. Heck, if you're talking King's Quest, I think there was only one!
     
  17. blue3c

    blue3c Warlord

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    So is it the different Hardware, or is it the tools you use. It almost sounds like its the tools from what you just said.


    total side note. I believe I read somewhere that python was use to encourage moding.
     
  18. Oggums

    Oggums King

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    There's always a problem with both. :mad:
     
  19. blue3c

    blue3c Warlord

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    Cool thank you for your input.
     
  20. Harkonnen

    Harkonnen Prince

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    blue3c
    What actually do you mean by "hodge podge"? If you mean a big diversity - then yes and no.

    It's actually YES when it comes to testing... No matter how clean the code is, expect bugs.

    I am constantly looking for new creations at demoscene (scene.org). And you know what?... In days of GeForce2 domination, a lot of demo-coders wrote demos which used nVidia OpenGL exetnsions... rendering them unusable for my current ATi.

    I praise ATi not for becoming a legend again, out from nothing when nVidia had the market... I praise them for solving all those compatibility issues which they inevitably had with so much software being tested onyl with nVidia just because nVidia was dominating when it was written.

    This also comes to bugs legitimization. My favourite story about that is not about D3D, it's about HTML. &nbsp; is the correct spelling. &nbsp is not. But IE (MS explorer) treats just &nbsp as a space as well. Inevitably there is a backlog of documents on the web which have &nbsp (no semicolon at the end). No matter this contradicts with HTML specs, all new browsers have to follow, that is '&nbsp' is a space, not &nbsp as Opera6 for example shows it.

    I believe ATi had A LOT OF "&nbsp"'s in games written for nVidia, and sometimes these legitimized bugs are to be caught later, by developers of our days. I think my insane_mode (which is actually a "bug") works because it worked before with 'nVidia' for some famouse title, so ATi and even Intel had to follow... heck, it works for everyone in that thread with very few exceptions (probably debug version of d3d runtime).
     

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