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Patch Japan ...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by orasis, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. Strategist83

    Strategist83 King

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Messages:
    625
    Zero is really powerful now. Despite the complaining about the unit it was strong to begin with - all that was really about was people repeatedly failing to grasp the notion that just because a unit is less valuable against the poorly functioning AI does not translate into the unit being a bad unique unit by itself. The Zero was dominant pre-patch, now you can build an unlimited quantity of them and guarantee total air superiority. Japan can now go absolutely nuts during the modern era and build a gigantic fleet/airforce from all the oil no longer tied to fighters.

    I didn't think Japan needed changing in the first place but if they had to change something I'm glad they did it this way. Japan as a cultural island nation makes sense. I also really like how much emphasis they've placed on the Samurai now, it reflects the administrative role the samurai had during peacetime well. In pure gameplay terms, it's not a big problem you have to wait till Steel tech to build fishing boats - anything beyond your first cities can easily wait that long, and then the Samurai will save you lots and lots of hammers that you now don't have to sink into the costly boats.

    Overall I think Firaxis did a truly excellent job on Japan - wish I could say the same about the rest of the Fall Patch.

    As for America, I think they are somewhat overshadowed by the Shoshone. However, the benefit of +1 sight should not be underestimated; it works for you throughout the entire game, giving you a small but significant advantage, and is a very big advantage during combat. I'm undecided as to whether America should be boosted, but the 'Manifest Destiny' ability fits them perfectly. As for their unique units being too late, well - that's also mainly a weak-AI issue. Earlier unique units are definitely better, but unlike an AI a human opponent won't just roll over and die meaning it could very well be only in the latest stages of a game that things really get decided and unique units are needed. Zero, B17 and Panzer all come out during a stage of the game where the plausibility of a military victory really come into its own - even if these unique units are late, you could potentially be producing a *lot* of them.
     
  2. Beaver79

    Beaver79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Messages:
    204
    IMO America is hands down the worst civilization in civ 5. The visibility range bonus is meaningless except for maybe at the start when you are finding ruins. You do not need increased sight range for sieging or defense, it doesn't help anything. Even if you had 8 ranged units with the extra range promotion surrounding an enemy city it wouldn't do anything. Just move a melee unit into range and then back out once everything has finished shooting.

    Their UU's aren't gamebreaking like a Keshik/CA/Chu/Longbow or really even nice like an Impi or something. Their UU might as well be a great war bomber and a musketman and you wouldn't even notice a difference. The cheaper tiles... I buy maybe 1 or 2 tiles a game usually.

    Name a worse civ than America. The Iroquois maybe?
     
  3. Ninakoru

    Ninakoru A deity on Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2002
    Messages:
    658
    Location:
    Madrid, Spain, Europe
    Yeah, America isn't an OP civ, while the UA is far from game-changing, the UUs are great, specially B17 can be a blast with logistics from Autocracy or Brandemburg, and Evasion. I don't understand the complaints:

    Japan deserved a boost: After Vanilla and the changes of combat power from damaged units, the UA was no loger great for warmongers. Samurai also got indirectly nerfed because melee lost protagonism in favor of ranged on G&K. Zero was always a bad unit because the little relevance of Fighters. You can save all the oil for bombers/battleships/tanks and cover against enemy air with AA guns.

    America was always the same, if something, got indirectly buffed due to Modern getting more relevance thanks to disabling world conquests on T100, now the superb B17 have more use window.
     
  4. Polisurgist

    Polisurgist King

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Messages:
    630
    Clearly the problem is that they put "America" in the game and not "MURKA! <snip> YEAH"

    Moderator Action: Please don't try to circumvent the word filter. The user was infracted for this.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  5. charon2112

    charon2112 King

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    Messages:
    990
    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Hmmm...aren't the Iriquois 'Americans' too. :D Firaxis really hates north america in general.
     
  6. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf King

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
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    Gender:
    Male
    It's not luck, I find maps in this game are notoriously stingy with sea resources, which sucks because water tiles are basically useless without them.
     
  7. whyidie

    whyidie Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    1,175
    Agreed!


    As someone who has been down on the zero, you're right. The Zero gets bad press because its not an uber offensive unit. Just like the Turtle Ship and the H'wacha, units that are good defensive units aren't terribly appealing. I haven't yet had the opportunity get to Zeros with patched Japan, but being able to spam out Zeros must make for a pretty strong air defense, whether you're on offense or defense.

    I'd put them middle tier, would even grant you bottom tier, but they're not so bad as to be the worst.

    I don't think the problem is that America is under powered, so much as they aren't top tier.
     
  8. Colin

    Colin Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Messages:
    256
    If you buy 1 or 2 tiles per game with America you are not using them correctly - their UA is designed to allow you to block off opponents and expand faster than others. Their UUs aren't gamebreaking but they are certainly, as others have mentioned, above average.

    Worse civs than America: Denmark, India, Celts. Then you have situational civs who, with the wrong map setup or bad luck, are mostly useless: Byzantium, Indonesia, Spain etc.

    I'm not saying America is top tier, particularly well designed, or interesting to play, but it is consistently middle of the road and if used correctly is effective, especially against the AI.
     
  9. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

    Joined:
    May 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,354
    Several versions ago Manifest Destiny was changed to reduce the culture cost of border growth as well. Nifty.
     

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