Patch News!

King Flevance said:
Is homo sapien sapiens an alternative to Chro-magnon (sp?) man? Neanderthals were homo sapiens as well.
The THEORY of evolution is still a theory not fact yet.
Also, from what I understand, there is no connection to Chro-magnon man and the Neandertals even as far as evolution goes. They are not sure how 2 races of man so different came about.
This is what my studies on evolution have uncovered.
The only one here for certain is evolution is far from fact still. As many people in the research of evolution are detractors of it as there are supporters.

Cro-magnon refers to the first homo sapiens sapiens in europe living around 35.000-10.000 years ago.
Neanderthals are designated Homo Sapiens Neandethalis and we are designated Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Neanderthals and homo sapiens sapiens might not have been so different as you suggest, it is a common cliché to portray neanderthals as more apelike than they actually were physically. Very little precise data of the intelligence and complexity of language of the neanderthals exists, and there is a lot of discussion on the subject. From archaeological evidence at the time neanderthals and homo sapiens sapiens existed contemporeous to each other there is no clear evidence of marked difference.

Of course there is a lot of unanswered questions, and different meanings of almost all factors involved exists.

@morikaweb, Yes the most common theory is that the homo sapiens sapiens extincted the neanderthals.... But whether it was by war, competition of resources or more controversial, assimilation in the genepool - is still an issue with no clear answers... The last one is very interesting I think, the theory goes that there was quite a lot more homo sapiens sapiens than neaderthals, which account for that it is difficult to see today if these two species merged.
 
King Flevance said:
The THEORY of evolution is still a theory not fact yet.

Off topic but in scientific terms a theory is very different from a hypothesis. The theory of evolution is considered a theory because numerous observations have confirmed it beyond reasonable doubt. I'm not saying there aren't still debates, discussions, etc about some parts of it, but for all practical purposes it can be considered established facts.

Sorry for the off topic.
 
Guagle said:
Off topic but in scientific terms a theory is very different from a hypothesis. The theory of evolution is considered a theory because numerous observations have confirmed it beyond reasonable doubt. I'm not saying there aren't still debates, discussions, etc about some parts of it, but for all practical purposes it can be considered established facts.

Sorry for the off topic.

Indeed - if anyone wants any more information on exactly what scientific theory means, a quick google will turn up further information such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Science
 
Yeah, evolution is only a theory.
Then scientists have another crazy theory that suggests the sun will rise tommorow too! Goes to show that scientists are a bunch of kookie people.

By the way, what does evolution (via the Darwinian "theory" of natural selection by the way) have to do with any news (at all) of a patch for civ 4?
Any takers? Is there like some kind of Kevin Bacon connection or something?
 
Maybe all the bugs in Civ4 will theoretically evolve into a program capable of eliminating all that is good and pure in this world!!!!!

or maybe we are trying to argue about something other than this god-forsakened game... :(
 
When in the nine hells did this discussion turn into a debate concerning evolution?!

I thought we were all about patching this game, eh?!
 
Jecrell said:
When in the nine hells did this discussion turn into a debate concerning evolution?! I thought we were all about patching this game, eh?!

They were wondering if the upcoming patch will be a linear evolution or a quantum-leap mutation.
 
Sorceresss said:
They were wondering if the upcoming patch will be a linear evolution or a quantum-leap mutation.
Nonetheless, you must admit that the controversey of the theory of evolution leaking into the thread through the mentioning of evolution and mutation is an interesting evolution in of itself. :)
 
Jecrell said:
Nonetheless, you must admit that the controversey of the theory of evolution leaking into the thread through the mentioning of evolution and mutation is an interesting evolution in of itself. :)

Yeah. Inhabitants of a hostile environment (i.e. this thread) actively change that environment by their actions (i.e. going off-topic) to something less dangerous. It seems that the species "forum user" from time to time exhibits unexpected outbreaks of intelligence in the middle of sheer chaos, which will greatly enhance their chances to evolve into creative social beings. :)
 
Jecrell said:
When in the nine hells did this discussion turn into a debate concerning evolution?!

I thought we were all about patching this game, eh?!

Speaking of which, when is this patch going to come? I have a good Spanish Terra game going on a huge map and I would like to continue playing it!
 
Actually, while the coming of the patch is only a postulate right now, evolution is as much a fact as a scientific knowledge about something that cannot be reproduced (which is the case for all historical / archaeological matters) can be. Science is honest enough to call it still a "theory", same like it calls it still the "theory" of relativity although more or less everything points into that direction.

It's always fascinating how creationists, who base their own beliefs on things IMPOSSIBLE to prove, ride the old horse of the "theory" of evolution. It's outright wrong that there should be "as many detractors of it as there are supporters people in the research of evolution " - it's just that those few who struggle against it try to sound especially loud.

Right, this is not exactly on topic concerning the patch, but, come on, it's, all in all, a much more important topic (which even found it's way into our beloved game).

It's weird, he, that in the prologue the story of evolution is told, while in the game religion (creationism) plays such a huge role? I still miss the "atheist" trait that pushes up scientific output at the cost of happiness (and NOT culture!).
 
EDaddy said:
Speaking of which, when is this patch going to come? I have a good Spanish Terra game going on a huge map and I would like to continue playing it!


Hmmm I wouldn't be to amazed if the patch doesn't allow you to play old save games. Quite a few changes and old savegames might bring things crashing down.

Just something to keep in mind, so you won't be to dissapointed/angry when it happens
 
Typically speaking, a patch of this monumental of proportions generally makes already saved games meaningless. So I wouldn't count on being able to still use your saved game with the new patch.

As for evolution being a 'theory', that's because while it is highly likely, you cannot exclude all possible exceptions to the rule. In science, a 'law' is something that has no exceptions. It's called the 'law of gravity' because under no circumstances will an exception to the law exist. With stuff relating to the past, you can't really say with 100% certainty that it's the correct way. Sure you may have 99.999999999% certainty, but it's not 100%. 100% makes something a law. Anything less is a theory.
 
DemonDeLuxe said:
Actually, while the coming of the patch is only a postulate right now, evolution is as much a fact as a scientific knowledge about something that cannot be reproduced (which is the case for all historical / archaeological matters) can be. Science is honest enough to call it still a "theory", same like it calls it still the "theory" of relativity although more or less everything points into that direction.

It's always fascinating how creationists, who base their own beliefs on things IMPOSSIBLE to prove, ride the old horse of the "theory" of evolution. It's outright wrong that there should be "as many detractors of it as there are supporters people in the research of evolution " - it's just that those few who struggle against it try to sound especially loud.

Right, this is not exactly on topic concerning the patch, but, come on, it's, all in all, a much more important topic (which even found it's way into our beloved game).

It's weird, he, that in the prologue the story of evolution is told, while in the game religion (creationism) plays such a huge role? I still miss the "atheist" trait that pushes up scientific output at the cost of happiness (and NOT culture!).

That's "titled" logic. I'd say the real comprehension comes in-between at the middle ground. If you've ever seen the movie "Inherit the Wind," based on a trial on evolution, which is, perhaps, my all time favorite movie, you may understand this thinking a little more.

And try not to damn everyone who disagrees with you like you're some kind of fundamentalist. :)
 
Jecrell said:
And try not to damn everyone who disagrees with you like you're some kind of fundamentalist. :)

Did I "damn" anybody? Not so. If I damn anything, then it's a certain approach only - creationism amongst it, admittedly. That's an attack on human intelligence - intellectual warfare, if you like.
 
From the Talk.Origins Archive:

A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.

- Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

Theory of evolution is only controversial among those who see it as conflicting with their religious views. It is certainly not controversial among scientists of the relevant field (ie. biology).

Now let's keep this discussion on topic, namely the Patch, shall we ? We can always start a thread about evolution elsewhere.
 
jdurg said:
Typically speaking, a patch of this monumental of proportions generally makes already saved games meaningless. So I wouldn't count on being able to still use your saved game with the new patch.

sad indeed... I'm not surprised -- that's the way it was in Civ3.
 
It was supposed to come sometime last week. Who knows? My patience has a long way to go before it runs out.
 
The press release only said that it would come out “shortly”. It never gave a date.
 
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