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[EvilGuy]

The problem I see with ancient era units is:

Chariots being useful at all, the same with elefants. They were little more than show and not even close to effective units. If they were to be kept in the game, they could just make the chariot UU, and skip elefants all together, because really... Also, elefants being a counter to cavalry? Also, horse archers are the first horseback unit. Okay? It took a great deal of training and excellent riding skills to be able to fight effectively from horseback like that. This also seems more like a UU.

Also, axemen are a bit odd in the sense that they are the counter to a unit that comes later as well as the contemporary spearman. I don't think axemen did very well against spearmen honestly.

I just don't know what they were thinking. Some units also get obsolete before they are ever being put to use (musketman).

Also, riflemen getting a bonus against cavalry? Aren't cavalry supposed to be used against them?

Also, musketmen were probably not more effective than longbowmen on the battlefield, but they were easier to train, and advancement in technology is a reason unto itself why they were used instead. Not because they were more effective, but because they were the latest thing I think. Also, modern 1800/1900th cavalry was probably a LOT less effective than knights against medivial melee units, but in the game they are a lot stronger. They were used against... riflemen, muskets.

There are just so many holes in their reasoning and unit bonuses and counters I can't help but wonder what they're thinking. If they are gonna have unit bonuses, make them reasonable and balanced and not just used because...

QFT

There are MANY unit unbalances, and i also find it a bit sad that so many units don't even get used because the techtree moves past them too fast.

Keep in mind that Firaxis gave ONLY Animal Husbandry for Horses as example for gameplay improvements... They said there were MANY.

I predict many units will have their strength revised, building costs, bonuses and counters adjusted etc...

Like... The Jaguar, is it just me or is this unit completely useless?? It replaces the swordsman but has -1 strength, has a useless jungle defence bonus and no city attack bonus ( I tell ya, when u play Montezuma, u better think twice before capturing cities in the early game without swordsman) . I dunno, give the Jaguar +1 jungle/forest movement rate and a bonus vs Archery and he'd be cool.

 

[spiralx]

Man beats horse in 22-mile marathon...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/mid_/3801177.stm

Someone exceptionally fit can probably run all day at a reasonable pace, horses just can't match that in the end.

 

[warpstorm]

are you playing two people on a tiny map or something?

This is how most MP ladder games are played, so, yes, you find your opponent almost immediately.

 

[onedreamer]

Warpstorm, what happened ? You got bashed in a 1v1 tiny map and that's a reason enough to change the game ? Why don't you answer the rest of Venger post you quoted, which holds a very well thought and written answer ?

 

[warpstorm]

Like... The Jaguar, is it just me or is this unit completely useless?? It replaces the swordsman but has -1 strength, has a useless jungle defence bonus and no city attack bonus ( I tell ya, when u play Montezuma, u better think twice before capturing cities in the early game without swordsman) . I dunno, give the Jaguar +1 jungle/forest movement rate and a bonus vs Archery and he'd be cool.

He is cool now. The secret to him is that you can plan to rush from the first turn. You know you can do it, so you don't have to waste time with things like hoping you will have resources nearby or building a second city. You explore like crazy and crank out a stack of Jags and wipe out your nearest neighbor. This works against the AI at nearly any level.

They do have the city attack bonus.

 

[onedreamer]

Like... The Jaguar, is it just me or is this unit completely useless?? It replaces the swordsman but has -1 strength, has a useless jungle defence bonus and no city attack bonus ( I tell ya, when u play Montezuma, u better think twice before capturing cities in the early game without swordsman) . I dunno, give the Jaguar +1 jungle/forest movement rate and a bonus vs Archery and he'd be cool.

Actually, the Jaguar does not need iron to be built, the swordsman does. I wouldn't underestimate this feature, however the 25% bonus in the jungle needs to be improved... maybe with a 25% bonus in jungle+forest.

 

[warpstorm]

Why don't you answer the rest of Venger post you quoted, which holds a very well thought and written answer ?

The answer is that you don't do any of those things. Like I said earlier in the thread, you build your city on the horse. No need to build the worker or road or pasture.

 

[Zertez]

Even on tiny maps, you should be able to get some archers up for defense with the absence of horses. Of course you need to plan for it; but playing mp, people should defend themselves from the start.

 

[onedreamer]

Actually I was wrong and I was referring to the post written by Leuf.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3335220&postcount=153

I fully agree with his thoughts and it's evident that showing horses 1 tech away from start won't help the guy without them. Besides chariots are in no way a win because they hardly can win an archer defending a city. They do however do a good pillaging job.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Also, riflemen getting a bonus against cavalry? Aren't cavalry supposed to be used against them?

1800s rifles could easily stand up to and break a cavalry unit. By the mid-1800s, Cavalry had been side-lined to recon, delay, and routing support by this time. Read about the Civil War.

Also, modern 1800/1900th cavalry was probably a LOT less effective than knights against medivial melee units, but in the game they are a lot stronger. They were used against... riflemen, muskets.

I'd put a regiment of Civil War cavalry up against a medieval melee unit any day of the week. Do you think the cavalry would just ride up to the unit and slash with swords? Give me a break. They'd stop a couple hundred yards away, pop off some shots with their carbines until the unit came too close. Then they'd hop on their horses and ride out a ways, drop and shoot some more. Sounds to me like a no contest.

 

[warpstorm]

Even on tiny maps, you should be able to get some archers up for defense with the absence of horses. Of course you need to plan for it; but playing mp, people should defend themselves from the start.

If you go for defense rather than offense on a 2 player Duel game, you give up the initiative. In that case I pillage everything.

 

[Zertez]

I didnt say you stick to only cities, Im talking about defending your territory including improvements, towns and main cities

 

[Syagrius]

What does it have to do with the first post which is the release of the patch..

 

[Zertez]

It is chat about the content of said patch.

 

[warpstorm]

I didnt say you stick to only cities, Im talking about defending your territory including improvements, towns and main cities

If you come out of the cities with your archers they lose their main bonus and are weaker than chariots.

 

[Zertez]

Pick up Combat 1/2 then Formation, if you are planning on marching with them, my mistake. While Chariots can have a slight edge, it isnt to big to really and there is counters. If someone is dying to an early rush like that, chances are they wouldnt make it far against the other players skill level. If there was zero counters and a sure victory, I could see the change; but Chariots are not a guaranteed victory against early units.

 

[yalejock]

I still think AI is cheating a bit too much... I was playing a continents game yesterday on Noble, which is supposed to make you and AI be on the same level... I was right next to Ghandi... the bugger had 2 Warrriors fortified when I looked at his city from a hill nearby and another one exploring after 5 turns?!? And I was still around 10 turns away from building one . So much for "fair." Plus I feel like there is still a BIG rush for grabbing land from AI - and I love it how they always go for the spots with iron and/or copper even if it supposed to be still invisible... anyways... so much for fair (and I love it how AI is able to keep up with reserach even when I am financial and they are not and they have many more cities to support)...

 

[warpstorm]

Pick up Combat 1/2 then Formation, if you are planning on marching with them, my mistake.

How will you be picking these up in the early game? Barbs?

 

[onedreamer]

If you come out of the cities with your archers they lose their main bonus and are weaker than chariots.

However if you build your army around chariots and I find bronze, you are dead meat quite fast. While archers can still stand their own against chariots, these can only bite the dust once spearmen show up. So what will you do, defend your cities with chariots ? They don't even have a defensive bonus.

btw I'm still waiting for your answer on that post...

 

[southjerseyrisi]

The game already runs fine on my system.

I hope that this useless "patch" doesn't go and mess things up.

The game is fine as it is.