Patch notes adoption

Ahriman · Feb 16, 2011

I think its worth having a separate thread for considering which of the patch changes should be integrated into the Balance mod.

Changelog:

Spoiler :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=412241

Ahriman · Feb 16, 2011

In general:
Engine and UI and AI and Diplomatic AI changes are good.
I really like the golden age change.
The settler production change is odd, I don't understand it and it would be nice to avoid if possible.

I dislike most of the building changes. I think its a bad design to go with flat bonuses from buildings (like the +2 gold from the market) rather than multipliers. Multipliers encourage city specialization; flat boosts encourage "build everywhere".

I do think that +1 food to plantations is something we should add to Fertilizer. Shoulda thought of that....
But otherwise I'm not wild about the improvement changes, relative to what is in the Balance mod. Better than vanilla though, probably.

I don't like most of the policy changes, I think the designs here are generally better.
The Oligarchy nerf is interesting though. I do think the current effect is still too powerful.

Joneill · Feb 16, 2011

Ahriman said:
I dislike most of the building changes. I think its a bad design to go with flat bonuses from buildings (like the +2 gold from the market) rather than multipliers. Multipliers encourage city specialization; flat boosts encourage "build everywhere".

Well for markets this is in addition to their bonus, so basically just a different way of buffing the building than thal used (lowered cost). And since cities themselves will give one less gold/production, this is their attempt to make infrastructure matter more than just plopping down cities with the bare minimum of buildings in them. I actually look forward to the production building changes, a combination of direct production and percentage modifier may allow you to get a good return on these in more cities.

Ahriman said:
I do think that +1 food to plantations is something we should add to Fertilizer. Shoulda thought of that....

Don't know why it should be food, when a lot of the plantation resources are non-edible, but ok. :lol:

Ahriman said:
I don't like most of the policy changes, I think the designs here are generally better.
The Oligarchy nerf is interesting though. I do think the current effect is still too powerful.

Best thing about these is that we get a few new effects for policies, which sound rather interesting. Picking a great person, less social policy cost increase from cities, etc.

Ahriman · Feb 16, 2011

a combination of direct production and percentage modifier may allow you to get a good return on these in more cities.

I don't think this should be the goal; I think you should want to build production-boost buildings only in cities with a decent amount of production. Otherwise, buy any buildings you want.
I prefer to encourage more specialization in general rather than less.

Don't know why it should be food, when a lot of the plantation resources are non-edible, but ok.

Agreed, +1 gold might make more sense.
I think that is probably something we should implement here.
It solves 2 problems; the fact that plantations don't scale, and that fertilizer is too weak.
I wonder if we should add a bonus for camps somewhere too, and maybe pastures. As it stands Gold, Silver, Gems, Wheat, Pearls, Whales, Fish improvements scale; others don't.

Sneaks · Feb 17, 2011

I can tell you changes that are definitely happening if Thal is looking at this with the same sort of gaze I am:

- At least 1 Honor policy will now give culture per kill. The branch needs a boost, and this is PERFECT
- The extra culture from cultural improvements seems minor now, but actually greatly enhances the viability of culture added to improvements.
- Line control means InfoAddict is going to require a lot less code

Everything in Strategic AI is pretty minor. Does not actually address any "strategic" issues with dumb AI

The denounce chain change could potentially be a very bad thing. Denouncements are cool right now because they affect the world view of the person you are denouncing. If the AI no longer takes into account 3rd part denouncements, then the mechanic is potentially worthless.

Firaxis took the very very very lazy way of fixing the ICS problem in simply changing minimum city distance. I will be curious to see if it just creates a 3 space lattice instead of a 2 space lattice.

We see yet more great people bludgeoning, and inexplicably really hurting Great Artists. I really do not understand this change at all.

The factory requirement for solar/nuclear is probably the dunce cap move of the entire patch. Think of it in these terms: All nuclear plants now cost 1 Uranium and 1 Coal. All solar plants now cost 1 Coal as well. Don't have coal? Too bad. This was really a senseless move in an effort to create a production building line.

Overall, I see a subtle shift away from city specialization and towards mass-building in every city, which is disappointing. I do see some efforts to make culture more viable, though.

I would say this patch is 2 steps forward, 2 steps back, another step forward, and then an awkward stumble sideways.

Gamewizard · Feb 17, 2011

Workshop should be a building you want in every city because of Ironworks (vanilla you still need the base building in EVERY city to get the national wonder, not just 80% as in Balance). Factories require coal so its unlikely they can be built in every city anyways, and with an extra engineer slot you're gonna wanna put it in a food heavy city to maximize its use (specialization). And beyond the factory, solar and nuclear plants have prerec's so those definetly aren't going in every city, just the factory ones which are already specialized.

I like what they are doing with the granary and stable (while similar to Thal's ideas). I felt the smokehouse was overpowered most of the time, and splitting up its power into two buildings is a good idea IMO.

The plantation output increase is welcomed. A gold increase seems more logical than a food increase, but perhaps they chose food for gameplay reasons (a more powerful increase since 1F>1G). Works well with pasture though.

The deer camp change is interesting. It changes a deer camp on a forest tile post economics to 2F2H1G, from 3F1H, correct? I like it if so.

The policy changes are eye popping for sure. I'm curious as to the layout of the Liberty and Tradition branches now, but regardless they look very strong. I wonder how Legalism works if you have less than 4 cities when you choose it. Can you insta buy any culture building in a new city later, and can you choose which building? I do like Thal's Patronage tree over vanilla's, though, which didn't get touched. When are they gonna give Commerce some love, its very weak now.

That's all for now, more thoughts later.

bobbyboy29 · Feb 17, 2011

I think that first it should be noted just how many of these changes appear to have been directly taken from this mod. Not sure how Thal views this, but I think it shows that they're moving in the right direction and it's a nice homage to the mod.

Correct me if I'm mistaken (may be confused with some PWM changes) but I believe that these changes were all already in Balance combined:

Trade routes get bonus gold based on population of capital; formula changed a bit so minimal gold received for hooking up very small cities

Balance pass on production and maintenance costs throughout the game.

Not sure what these changes are but thal has already done plenty of this.

Aqueduct added (entirely new building). 40% of Food is carried over after a new Citizen is born.

Lol, the exact same building with the exact same effect! (percentage is different I think but still...)

Granary gives bonus 1 food for Wheat/Banana Deer; cost reduced

Yep (slightly different resources)

Stable gives bonus 1 production for Sheep/Cattle/Horse and can be built with Sheep or Cattle; cost reduced

same again (with slightly different resources)

Lighthouse gives bonus 1 food for Fish; cost reduced

Academy increased to 6 Science.
Landmark increased to 6 Culture.
Manufactory increased to 4 Production

Boosted GP improvements- check

I know that often the numbers or resources are different but the ideas are the same. Feel free to add more if you see more!

My biggest disappointment with the changes in this patch (i.e the stuff that they put in not the stuff that they didn't fix) is that liberty and tradition got pretty buffed which is good, but seems like once again honour has been left out and is even more useless now.

Oh and:

Sneaks said:
I would say this patch is 2 steps forward, 2 steps back, another step forward, and then an awkward stumble sideways.

This is brilliant!

Joneill · Feb 17, 2011

Ahriman said:
I don't think this should be the goal; I think you should want to build production-boost buildings only in cities with a decent amount of production. Otherwise, buy any buildings you want.
I prefer to encourage more specialization in general rather than less.

I agree with encouraging specialization. Their approach may simply give you a bit more control over which city you want to specialize on production. Terrain and improvements are still a factor, but you can mitigate it somewhat with the correct infrastructure. As long as you cannot easily build every building in every city, you'll have a decision to make.
Yes, workshops will be a rather general building (although the cost increase may still make it more worthwhile in some cities than others), but factories require coal and are a prerequisite for solar/nuclear plants, so you'll have to plan future development a bit.

Ahriman · Feb 17, 2011

At least 1 Honor policy will now give culture per kill. The branch needs a boost, and this is PERFECT

I don't see a need for this. Warfare should not be about culture. Culture should come from peaceful infrastructure, not war.

Firaxis took the very very very lazy way of fixing the ICS problem in simply changing minimum city distance.

Agreed, I think Thal's tweaks had already made city placement pretty good.

The factory requirement for solar/nuclear is probably the dunce cap move of the entire patch

Yeah, that was stupid. "Realism" claims overlooking gameplay practicalities.

I like what they are doing with the granary and stable (while similar to Thal's ideas). I felt the smokehouse was overpowered most of the time, and splitting up its power into two buildings is a good idea IMO.

I think we should consider this. Making the stable a pasture booster rather than just a horse thing is sensible.

I think moving bridge-building to engineering is an interesting move, and probably a good idea.
Have a longer earlier period where rivers are a strategic obstacle even in your own territory.

Workshop should be a building you want in every city because of Ironworks (vanilla you still need the base building in EVERY city to get the national wonder, not just 80% as in Balance).

National wonders are not so important that they are worth building stuff in every city just because, unless you are a small empire.

Sneaks · Feb 17, 2011

You are right that warfare should nit be about culture but warmongers should have some way to keep getting some policies.

Ahriman · Feb 17, 2011

You are right that warfare should nit be about culture but warmongers should have some way to keep getting some policies.

They do have a way - by diverting some resources towards producing culture buildings, which has an opportunity cost because it means they can spend less time on military development.

If they don't build culture buildings, then no, they shouldn't be getting more social policies (or rather, they should be getting them very slowly).
This is part of why I don't like the free policy at each new era, because it means you can keep getting policies even without any kind of attention to cultural production at all.

People have constantly complained that the game favors warmongers since war gives more population which gives more gold and science; well, here is one thing that war doesn't give you. Culture and social advancement is *not* something that comes from warfare.

The whole point of culture and social policies is as a reward for investing in peaceful infrastructure rather than military units.

Sneaks · Feb 17, 2011

The problem is that social policies seemed to have been designed from the start as a core game mechanic meant to be used by all playstyles. Thus, why the Honor and Autocracy trees exist.

Ahriman · Feb 17, 2011

Sneaks said:
The problem is that social policies seemed to have been designed from the start as a core game mechanic meant to be used by all playstyles. Thus, why the Honor and Autocracy trees exist.

I don't understand the logical connection.

Yes, there are two militarist trees.
That does not in any shape or form mean that you should be able to get social policies without investing in culture infrastructure.

Rather the opposite; it means that:
a) If you are an all-out warmonger you can still direct the few policies you get towards military benefits
b) A militaristic strategy might still want to back away from all-out warmonger somewhat to build some culture infrastructure, as this will then lead to military advantages.

I don't see anything in the original design which makes it look like you should be able to get lots of policies regardless of what strategy you pursue.
In fact I see the opposite; I see a design that deliberately prevented you from getting many policies if you spammed cities, or if you declined to invest in culture production (buildings, specialists, landmarks).

Seek · Feb 17, 2011

I'm inclined to agree with you, Ahriman, but the culture-from-kills mechanic could be used as a deepish Autocracy SP to help make it more appealing. I don't see a place in Honor for it though.

Ahriman · Feb 17, 2011

Seek said:
I'm inclined to agree with you, Ahriman, but the culture-from-kills mechanic could be used as a deepish Autocracy SP to help make it more appealing. I don't see a place in Honor for it though.

I think as a deep Autocracy SP that it would come so late in the game that it wouldn't be likely to give you more culture than the cost of a single policy, and so you'd be better off just buying that other policy rather than spending the SP pick on something that just added to culture.

It does seem like a thematic fit with Populism though (or "Jingoism").

Arksa · Feb 18, 2011

Speaking of populism, I think the ability is not working. Had it last game and my units on my borders were still healing at +2, when it should be +3 if I'm not mistaken.

Thalassicus · Feb 20, 2011

Mod to Core is a thread worth reading if you're interested in some of my thoughts about the patch.

I also posted a point-by-point analysis of a few ways I'm going to adapt the mods to the patch here.

==========

I think I didn't mention this specifically elsewhere, I prefer the gold bonus for plantation-using resources to be on a building rather than the improvement. The reason is two goals:

Boost the resource
Vary build order priorities between cities

The tech boost accomplishes goal #1 but not #2, so overall I find building boosts more interesting.

Sneaks said:
- At least 1 Honor policy will now give culture per kill. The branch needs a boost, and this is PERFECT

I like this idea. I'll add it to Military Caste and remove the 1 free policy per era mechanic. Ideally we can balance it so everyone receives the same amount of policies in this mod as before the patch. It makes sense to do this because the devs significantly buffed culture gain for both Tradition and Liberty, and appear to be moving away from the concept of only allowing small empires to get many policies.

On a side note, it won't devalue the importance of the Aztec unique trait, because in a happy coincidence last week I added a new effect for Aztec fans. Sacrificial Captives are sent to the lowest-culture city to be sacrificed!

As the value of sacrificial culture to the empire lessens over time, the value to individual cities gradually grows. This is a highly unique buff for Aztec border expansion and will distinguish the trait from any potential policy effect. (The Honor culture will only go to the empire, not cities.)

I don't like restricting someone from getting policies just because the person enjoys playing a certain way. I find it really fun and interesting to be able to specialize our empire. This was a core mechanic all players got equal use of in all previous versions of Civilization (and Alpha Centauri, the forerunner to both Civ 4 and 5's social systems). With that said, I've been thinking about implementing a steeper policy curve. My goal is to make it relatively easy to fill out ~3 trees, very hard to get 4, and getting all 5 for a cultural victory should require dedicated work with an organized long-term strategy.

This means players of any play-style will receive about the same number of early policies. The difference is how we get these policies.

Tradition for tall empires
Liberty for rapid expanders
Honor for conquerors
Piety for happiness and culture victories

@Arksa
I'll put it on my todo list to check that, thank you.

alpaca · Feb 20, 2011

Some of these changes are just insane.

Increasing city spacing is really annoying, we both tried it and we both didn't like how it really cut into city placement options for the player, without fixing the underlying issues that cause ICS. This just makes the issue more pronounced because with three tiles between cities you basically have to try to pack them as tight as possible. Needless to say, I doubt this will change AI placement patterns in any meaningful way - they'll go for 3-tile ICS.

-1 :c5gold:

to trade posts while they add an additional +1 :c5production:

to mines? Apart from making chemistry a must-have this means I will basically never, ever build a trade post again in vanilla. It's sooooo much better to just sell things to the AI (nothing in the changelog so I doubt they fixed that).

Hospital is now abysmal unless they made it really cheap. University is even more important to get (everyone plays like Siam now). Workshop is ok now but windmills suck even worse than before. Forge and especially stables are most likely still not worth their keep.

Happiness will be a lot tighter.

Oligarchy change will provide excellent opportunity for scout spam or something similar. Goes well with the honor happiness policy (this might actually be a viable option for ICS instead of liberty). Massive nerf to Tradition at any rate, while they boosted Liberty, which is probably necessary due to fewer cities.

Making work boats so weak - they even need lighthouses now to provide any relevant bonus - will make me vomit whenever I found a city on the coast, which will happen often due to the 3-tile spacing need to squeeze in more cities.

There are also some good changes, though:

The settler cost change is a good idea. With 3 tiles between cities you really need more expensive settlers or your land will be grabbed in no time.

Modding and AI changes are mostly minor but sound decent enough.

The change to power plants seems to go into the Civ4 direction and in fact I like it, but I agree with Sneaks about coal abundance being a potentially big problem.

Thalassicus · Feb 20, 2011

I agree about city spacing and intend to keep it at 2 tiles. Ironically we'd already put all that effort into getting the AI to build 3 tiles apart anyway! :lol:

I believe they reduced income from trading posts because they've been steadily reducing expenses (maintenance costs have been cut for a lot of the early buildings). Basically here's my thought... if 3 :c5gold:

used to be about equal in value to 2 :c5food:

/2

, why not scale all gold numbers so it's a 2:2:2 ratio? It'd certainly be simpler to understand if each type of yield can be made equal in value. Part of this would be making improvements 1 yield with +1 from a tech.

I changed the Hospital to give +15% :c5food:

. One thing to keep in mind is either the flat or percentage version increases base food, not surplus food, so it's a buff for any city close to its cap for food supply.

Since both your mod and mine give units fixed maintenance costs, in a recent beta version I set scouts to obsolete at Civil Service to mitigate potential garrison exploits. I'm thinking about re-introducing the Explorer unit to the game as a medieval unit, and somehow giving it a practical use.

The changes tradition vs liberty balance are so dramatic I'm reserving judgment for when I have a chance to playtest it.

The fish resource got 1 :c5food:

moved to the lighthouse in the patch. Workboats were changed from 2 :c5gold:

to 1

, with +1

on compass and are not affected by lighthouses. I'm not certain this is either a buff or nerf for coastal cities, but I know I personally like having the food.

Seek · Feb 20, 2011

If I'm understanding it correctly, fish food actually got a buff: base is 2F (1 for fish, 1 for sea) and +3 for improvements (1 from boats, 2 from Lighthouse) = 5F, compared to 4F in previous. Gold nerfed by 1 though - a fair trade I think.

Patch notes adoption

Tyrant

Tyrant

Chieftain

Tyrant

Brooklyn Bum

Emperor

I was saying boo-urns...

Chieftain

Tyrant

Brooklyn Bum

Tyrant

Brooklyn Bum

Tyrant

Deity

Tyrant

Warlord

Bytes and Nibblers

King of Ungulates

Bytes and Nibblers

Deity

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