PBEM: A Soaring Spirit

[McMonkey]

THE PELOPONNESE & EUBOEA
This is where things get a little more tricky. Sparta has four colony sites and Corinth is willing to give back Methone and Phlius as well as any protectorate claims it may have had over Argos, Mycenae, Tiryns, Epidaurus or Eleusis as well as the colony site at 246,96.

Corinth is willing to leave Megara under Athenian control in exchange for the return of Corinth. Corinth is willing to give up Thebes and Tanagra. Ionia is willing to cede control of Euboea, bar the colony site at 243, 79 to Athens.

In exchange for these concessions we claim the Island at 265,77 and the Island of Psara. We would also ask for monetary compensation of 500 gold from Sparta and 2000 gold from Athens.

Corinth +4 & -7 = -3 total, Sparta +9 (if Argos, Mycenae and Tiryns taken) and Athens +8 (if Epidaurus taken)

Plus slight correction to Sicily. Sparta has Panormus and Phoenicia has Acragas so I have amended the totals below.

CURRENT PROPOSED TOTALS INC. EXISTING CITIES:

Corinth-Ionia
60 Cities

Athens-Etruscan
58 Cities

Sparta-Phoenicia
63 Cities

 

[McMonkey]

CRETE and the CYCLADES
I propose Tenos is returned to the Spartans and Samos is returned to the Ionians. I think this leaves 8 cities & colony sites. For arguments sake we will split this into four each Athens/Sparta and an agreement that no Corinthian-Ionian expansion in this direction (in south of Samos - Euboea)

CURRENT PROPOSED TOTALS INC. EXISTING CITIES:

Corinth-Ionia
61 Cities

Athens-Etruscan
62 Cities

Sparta-Phoenicia
68 Cities

 

[McMonkey]

This leaves the northern Aegean Islands, Thessaly, Epirus, Thrace, Macedonia, Illyria and Anatolia. Currently Corinth-Ionia is in pole position to subjugate these regions, especially the Balkans. This could potentially mean another 40 cities in the Balkans and ten in Anatolia. This 50 odd cities could once again upset the balance of power.

As Ionia-Corinth is positioned to dominate the Balkans we propose the following spheres of influence. Corinth-Ionia control Elaea and Pergamum as well as the colony site at 296,60. Then Elaeus and the colony site at 290,42. Aenus and the colony site at 275,37. Amphipolis and the colony site at 258,36. The colony sites at 244,46 and 249,47 in Chalcidice. The two sites at 229,51 and 231,55 between Macedonia and Thessaly. The interior of the Balkans will be a Corinthian-Ionian sphere.

In exchange the coast of the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara as well as the rest of Anatolia and the islands of Thasos, Imbros & Samothrace and any coastal cities or colony sites not mentioned above will be considered outside of the Corinthian-Ionain sphere.

In addition, we will put a temporary halt to our conquests (Bar Amphissa, Tricca and Vergina which we need to pacify for security) and colonization until the other nations begin to grow themselves. We will need to work out the details of this if you guys agree to these terms.

I am willing to negotiate points, but I think that under the current circumstances these proposals are fair, especially when one considers the two against one (or four against two) ratio of the current alliances! At least this is a starting point for negotiations.

 

[McMonkey]

Ionian save:

 

[McMonkey]

Here is my artists impression of the rough zones of influence (sorry it's sideways. I was trying to upload it off my phone!). The main area of interest is the green area around the Black Sea.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I'm OK with delaying play for at least a couple days while we negotiate. I think we should play a turn about once every 3 days at least, however, since time does not stop while kings negotiate. We could agree to an in-game cease-fire if the negotiations look promising, of course.

I would like to split these proposed city totals into existing cities, rights to conquest, and rights to settlement, because cities established 20-30 turns from now are not the same as cities already established. This list does not include the Balkans and Anatolia.

Corinth Ionia
Totals: 53 cities, +1 right to conquest, + 8 colony sites

Start: 59 Cities
Sicily: -3 Cities, +4 Colony sites
Corsica&Sardinia: --
Italy: +1 City, +2 Colony sites
North Africa: --
Crete and the Cyclades: -1,+1=0 cities
THE PELOPONNESE & EUBOEA: -5+1=-4 cities, + 1 conquest, + 2 colony sites

Athens-Etruscan
Totals: 28 Cities+19 right to conquest+16 colony sites

Start: 24 Cities
Sicily: +1 Colony site
North Africa: --
Corsica & Sardinia: +1 conquest, +4 Colony sites
Italy: +13 Conquest, +8 colony sites
Crete and the Cyclades: +3 conquest, +1 Colony site
THE PELOPONNESE & EUBOEA: +5-1=4 Cities,+2 conquest (Eleusis,Epidairus), +2 colony sites

Sparta-Phoenicia
Totals: 39 cities + 8 conquests + 19 colony sites

Start: 35 Cities
Sicily: +3 Cities, +8 (? originally 10 before correction) Colony sites
North Africa: +1 Conquest
Corsica & Sardinia: +1 Conquest, +4 Colony sites
Italy: -1 City, +2 colony sites
Crete and the Cyclades: -1+1=0 cities, +3 Conquest, +1 Colony site
THE PELOPONNESE & EUBOEA: +2 cities, +3 conquests,+4 colony sites

---

The Athenians think the Spartans are likely to have some concerns about this treaty, and we will honour our alliance with them.

The Athenians will also have to think about this treaty proposal (and examine it more closely) before proposing amendments.

EDIT: Forgot to include Aethalia in Corsica and Sardinia totals.

 

[McMonkey]

The temporary halt in play makes sense. Hopefully we can thrash something out in the next day or two.

We appreciate the list you have put together and see the sense in differentiating between city conquests and colony sites.

I think one solution could be a halt to Corinthian-Ionian colonization or military expansion for either a set number of years or until the other nations reach a certain size. This will give you guys the chance to balance up in terms of territory and cities and achieve a better balance of power. Of course, we understand that an established city is worth more than a colony site and we think the temporary halt will help address this issue.

I think it is worth considering that although Corinth-Ionia appears to be gaining the upper hand in a war we did not start, we are willing to sacrifice a significant number of established cities to achieve peace. By sacrificing these cities we are also allowing our neighbors to build up a buffer zone around their core cities in Sicily and the Peloponnese. We are also voluntarily proposing a pause in colonization and expansion to allow a balance of power to be established. We are offering this not because we fear losing this war, but because we value peace and want to see our people grow and prosper and don't mind if the neighbors do too. More large foreign cities mean more trade revenues for our merchants! I think our offer is generous but also benevolent and wise, We recognize we went too far in our early conquests and this unsettled our neighbors and were willing to work to put this right.

The halt on military expansion would need to have a few set exemptions, such as the recapture of Vergina which is vital to our lines of communication and the cities in Thessaly that I mentioned that are potential security risks.

If we can reach an agreement on the areas listed above we can then work out what is to be done about the Balkans and Anatolia.

As I said before. The lists I gave before are a starting point for negotiations and a show of good will, but if an agreement cannot be reached we are ready and able to pursue the war.!

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Sipontum and Brentesion are the only two cities or colony sites on the east coast of Italy. The Etruscans will eventually need access to Sipontum. We propose having the right to purchase that city for 600 gold for the duration of the treaty.

Perhaps this will work as a treaty draft:

This peace treaty shall be in effect until [Date, say 30-40 turns in the future].

These territorial exchanges shall be performed immediately:

[List of Territorial Exchanges]

These territories shall be sold as soon as payment is made:

[List of Cities and their prices]

(If purchases are not completed before the treaty expires, the right to purchase is lost.)

These are the spheres of influence. Only the alliance specified may settle or conquer in these areas.

[List of Spheres of Influence. Balkans and Anatolia not included, but see below]

The spheres of influence can be altered by bilateral agreement, except for those specified in this section.

[List of Spheres of Influence that must have unanimous support to be altered.]

The Corinthian-Ionian League cannot conquer or settle new cities, unless one of the exceptions below is met.

The Corinthian-Ionian league has fewer than 10 more cities than the more expansive of the Athenian-Etruscan alliance or the Spartan-Phoenecian alliance.

The Corinthian-Ionian league has fewer than 20 more cities than the least expansive of the Athenian-Etruscan alliance or the Spartan-Phoenecian alliance.

The city in question is controlled by the Lydians.

The city in question is in the list of exemptions: [List of Exemptions]

A non-Corinthian-Ionian power has a settlement in the Balkans or Anatolia.

-----

Essentially, this doesn't recognize Corinthian-Ionian exclusivity to colonize the Balkans and Anatolia, but settling/conquering there would allow Corinth and Ionia to use all their resources to claim as much as they can. I propose the treaty expire, since I don't think it will hold forever anyway, and puts some pressure to expand relatively quickly. We can extend it if everyone finds it convenient.

This treaty draft looks more promising than a fight to the finish, but we'll have to see what Sparta thinks. They did mention some war aims that are not met by the current proposals, and which Athens will support. But the Spartans can speak for themselves.

 

[McMonkey]

I can work with this proposal. I will take a more detailed look today and flesh it out.

It now depends what Sparta (and the Phoenicians) think of all this. I am willing to listen to any concerns they may have. I do think I have made generous provisions for colonization and I'm ceding quite a few cities to make a peace deal that will work. The key is giving Sparta and Athens a secure core which cannot easily be overrun, something I do not have myself with both Corinth and Miletus both within easy striking distance! Each nation has areas they can expand into. The Etruscans into Corsica and the Italian peninsula, the Phoenicians into Sicily and Sardinia, the Spartans and Athenians into Magna Graecia and the Aegean islands and Corinth-Ionia into parts of the Balkans.

I think that leaving the Balkans & Anatolia a free expansion area makes sense. There may be one or two cities I will stipulate as exceptions.

 

[McMonkey]

Regarding Sipontum. 600 gold seems very cheap for the Etruscans to purchase their only accessible east coast port. That barely covers the traders we lost in the initial attack. We would be willing to accept 1000 gold. A fair price considering its importance to Corinth as it's main safe harbour in the region. Of course we are willing to take this in instalments.

 

[McMonkey]

Prof. Garfield
Could you clarify the meaning of this line please?

A non-Corinthian-Ionian power has a settlement in the Balkans or Anatolia.

Here is a fleshed out treaty. We can now deal with points from this draft treaty and hopefully thrash out a deal.

A) This peace treaty shall be in effect until 688 BC (30 turns)

B) These territorial exchanges shall be performed immediately:
Added: [Units must be re-homed before city is transferred using CivCity. No selling of improvements or starving of populations]

1- Tenos to Spartans

2- Samos to Ionians *under negotiation

3- Corinth to Corinthians

C) These territories shall be sold as soon as payment is made:
Added: [Units must be re-homed before city is transferred using CivCity. No selling of improvements or starving of populations]

1) Methone & Phlius to Sparta (500 gold) *under negotiation

2) Thebes & Tanagra to Athens (1000 gold)

3) Chalcis, Eretria & Cyme to Athens (1000 gold)

4) Sipontum to Etruscans (600-1000 gold) *under negotiation

5) Petra, Enna & Morgantia to Phoenicians/Spartans (500 gold) *under negotiation

6) (If purchases are not completed before the treaty expires, the right to purchase is lost.)

D) These are the spheres of influence. Only the alliance specified may settle or conquer in these areas.

1) Megara to remain under Athenian control

2) Sparta can conquer Argos, Mycenae & Tiryns if Athens agrees *under negotiation

3) Athens can conquer Epidaurus if Sparta agrees *under negotiation

4) Athens may conquer Eleusis

5) Colony site at 127,105 opposite Zancle to Athens

6) Colony sites at 139,61 & 142,58 near Taras to Sparta *under negotiation

7) Colony sites at 129,95 & 133,87 near Scylacium/Locri to Corinth-Ionia (once allowed to begin settling again)

8) Colony site at 123,65 Pyxus to Ionia (once allowed to begin settling again)

9) Crete and Cyclades are a Spartan/Athenian sphere *under negotiation

10) Italian peninsula (except cities specified above) to Etruscans

11) Aethalia & Corsica to Etruscans

12) Sardinia to Phoenicians *under negotiation

13) North Africa a Phoenician sphere

14) Colony site on the island of Cossyra (65,129) to Phoenicians

15) Colony site at 118,102 near Zancle to Athens

16) Colony sites at 115,131 & 113,123 near Syracuse to Corinth

17) Colony site at 115,117 near Naxos to Ionians

18) The rest of Sicily to be in the Phoenician-Spartan sphere

19) The Island of Melite (105,151) to Corinth-Ionia (once allowed to begin settling again) *under negotiation

E) The spheres of influence can be altered by bilateral agreement, except for those specified in this section.

[List of Spheres of Influence that must have unanimous support to be altered.]

F) The Corinthian-Ionian League cannot conquer or settle new cities, unless one of the exceptions below is met.

1) The Corinthian-Ionian league has fewer than 10 more cities than the more expansive of the Athenian-Etruscan alliance or the Spartan-Phoenecian alliance.

2) The Corinthian-Ionian league has fewer than 20 more cities than the least expansive of the Athenian-Etruscan alliance or the Spartan-Phoenecian alliance.

The city in question is controlled by the Lydians:

3) Vergina & Beroea in Macedonia

The city in question is in the list of exemptions:

4) Colony site 243,79 Northern tip of Euboea to Corinth

5) Colony site 265,77 Island

6) Island of Psara

7) Amphissa & Tricca in Thessaly

8) A non-Corinthian-Ionian power has a settlement in the Balkans or Anatolia. *Query as to meaning

-----

Essentially, this doesn't recognize Corinthian-Ionian exclusivity to colonize the Balkans and Anatolia, but settling/conquering there would allow Corinth and Ionia to use all their resources to claim as much as they can. I propose the treaty expire, since I don't think it will hold forever anyway, and puts some pressure to expand relatively quickly. We can extend it if everyone finds it convenient.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

C) These territories shall be sold as soon as payment is made:
Added: [Units must be re-homed before city is transferred using CivCity. No selling of improvements or starving of populations]

Perhaps we amend this to:

C) These territories shall be sold within 2 years of notification that a payment has been gathered. The payment and transfer shall be done at the time decided by the seller. City improvements shall not be sold and populations not decreased below their current population. (If a city grows before it is sold, it may build a settler unit.) Improvements to the land shall not be pillaged.

This will allow the owner of the city to use it a little more normally while a payment is being gathered.

4) Sipontum to Etruscans (600-1000 gold) *under negotiation

Perhaps we put this clause under a separate heading, but I suggest:

The Etruscans agree to pay the Corinthians compensation of 400 gold plus 25 more gold for each year that they delay payment after the treaty is signed.

The Etruscans shall, for the duration of the treaty, have the option of purchasing Sipontum for 400 gold plus gold equal to 2.5 times the shield value of the improvements in that city. Due to the remoteness of the city, the Corinthians shall have up to 4 years to vacate the city, but shall inform the Etruscans of exactly when the city will be vacated so that Etruscan troops can be brought in.

8) A non-Corinthian-Ionian power has a settlement in the Balkans or Anatolia. *Query as to meaning

I'm thinking the area east of Therma, north of the Aegean Sea, and within 5 squares of the Marmara and black seas (Possibly the nearby islands also--will negotiate the specific limits). The Corinthians and Ionians may settle or conquer in this area when allowed by the city limitation of the treaty, but this is not recognized as the exclusive right of the Corinthians and Ionians. However, If the Athenians, Spartans, Etruscans or Phoenecians settle or conquer in this area, then the Corinthians and Ionians are not bound by the empire size limit clause anywhere.

My thinking is that giving the area exclusively to the Corinthians and Ionians will basically result in this same kind of war taking place around the time this treaty expires. The current four against two war exists largely because, if the pre-war trend persisted, the Corinthian-Ionian league could defeat Athens and Sparta before the Phoenecia and Etrusca could send aid. On the other hand, it is unreasonable to expect the Corinthians and Ionians to watch expansion north of the Aegean sea without at least staking their own claim.

A) This peace treaty shall be in effect until 688 BC (30 turns)

The Athenians aren't quite ready to agree to 30 turns, but we'll see how negotiations go. We might adjust some clauses for the last 10 years.

The Athenians must emphasize that if the Spartans feel that pursuing war now offers them better long term prospects than agreeing to a treaty, we will stand by our allies.

 

[McMonkey]

The Athenians must emphasize that if the Spartans feel that pursuing war now offers them better long term prospects than agreeing to a treaty, we will stand by our allies.

Pursuing the war will result in total defeat for both the Spartans and the Athenians, the Athenian capital being the first to burn! I'm not sure you appreciate the predicament Athens is currently in. Of course, in war anything can happen, but under these circumstances I would urge you take me up on my very generous terms which clearly demonstrate the benevolent nature of the Corinthian-Ionian League. To offer to act as the vanquished on the eve of victory and cede territory in an attempt to build a more harmonious world for Hellenes to live in is an act of supreme altruism. Ultimately I value peace more than doggedly holding onto recently acquired territory, especially as the conquest owes so much to good fortune. The gods give and the gods take away. The oracle at Delphi has instructed me not to let greed rule my decisions. I'm willing to iron out the details, but I would not push me too far as my human pride can rebel against these warnings!

By the way, where are the Spartans? Are they raging that their warriors may soon be compelled to march back to their barracks to await the next war? We hope their bloodlust does not destroy the prospects of peace for the more civilised Greek peoples!

I agree with your amendments to point C except for the part about building settlers. This will cause unnecessary delays & complications in the transfer of cities. If we don't want cities we can restrict the harvest. When I said 'no starving the citizens' I meant to the point where the city drops in size.

Regarding Sipontum. We will accept payment of 800 gold. This can be done in instalments, as long as they are paid reasonably (say four times 200). Once the first instalment is paid we will send ships to evacuate the troops within the city. Alternatively we could sell a number of Mercenary Hoplites to the Etruscans at 300 gold a unit to speed up the transfer and eliminate the need for a forced overland march of Etruscan troops.

I agree to the terms regarding eastern Thrace (8) and Anatolia. If the Spartans or Athenians feel ready to begin settling there then Corinth-Ionia can also restart their expansion, or if the clauses F1 or F2 are met. West of Therma is a Corinthian-Ionian sphere. Correct?

I'm willing to extend the treaty to 678 if that works better for Sparta & Athens.

 

[McMonkey]

I think the Athenian-Corinthian-Ionian negotiations are pretty much concluded. We just need to hear the position of Sparta. Is work keeping you busy again Ingvar?

 

[Northerner]

The gerousia is unconvinced. For days they have convened and debated, but the longer they debate the less appealing they find proposed truce.

A peace at the leisure of Corinth, even when Corinth has reached a dominant position. Sparta would rather fall now than wait for defeat when Corinth sees fit.

...

Miletus attacked.

...

The elders of Carthage grief that one of their sons fell in Phlius. Yet, the decision to go and join a war of the Hellenes was his, and the consequences are his own to bear.

 

[McMonkey]

It saddens me that the Spartans are so suspicious of Corinthian intentions. We have always sought to put ourselves in a strong position, but we have never schemed against our Hellenic brothers. We are still willing to negotiate to find a settlement that is acceptable for all. The terms we proposed can still be negotiated. We may appear strong, but a 2 vs 3/4 war would balance out the odds, especially with our shrunken territories and other restrictions.

Still, we have little option but to fight on. We have no wish to destroy Sparta, but if you leave us no option...

 

[Prof. Garfield]

The Athenians and Etruscans will stand by their Spartan allies. The 17 unit army near Athens is certainly substantial, but not enough to make the Athenians form a separate peace. The Athenians wonder if this army brought siege equipment, since the Ionian army outside Zancle seems to have forgotten it.


Lars Porsena proclaimed Tyrant of the new Etruscan Tyranny!

No World Events.

Ionian Pentreconter sunk at (258,92). Corinthian Pentreconter sunk at (223,95). Thessalian Cavalry attacks Eretria, is defeated by Hoplite. Athenians choose not to attack the Transport ship stack (2 units) since they were placed there when negotiations looked promising and would have been able to take extra troops away from that position. [Mostly I do that for the real time consideration that McMonkey could have waited for negotiation responses before playing.]

 

[McMonkey]

CORINTHIAN
Athenian Pentreconter sunk at 223,93 near Naupactus

IONIAN
Empty Spartan transport sunk at 116,114 near Naxos
Damaged Spartan Pentreconter sunk at 303,99 near Samos
Delos and Samos recaptured wth no losses to either side
Psara captured
Amphipolis in Thrace under siege

Piraeus captured along with its Lighthouse
1 Hoplite and 2 Transport ships killed.

It appears my Strategos in Attica judged correctly that the Ionian army at Marathon would compel the Athenians to send the bulk of its forces to its capital, leaving other cities more lightly defended. Deciding that a frontal assault now would be too costly, the Ionians opt to bypass the capital and attempt to cut it off. I was shocked by how few troops the Athenians had assigned to protecting the post of Athens. The city is taken with no losses to the Ionians.

What a pity the stubborn Spartans force their Athenian allies to fight on when the offer of peace still exists. Even now Corinth-Ionia is willing to negotiate peace terms. It was never our intention to fight our Hellenic brothers. Please reconsider and join us at the negotiating table.

 

[Northerner]

Sorry, I should have started with this one rather than going into the endless slog of ship movement that is Imperialism II. I must sleep now.

 

[Northerner]

The Spartans place their fate in the gods hands.

They would not think ill of the Athenians should they choose peace.

...

Miletus attacked.

Samos retaken.

No news from the Peloponnese.

No news from Carthage.